Removing monuments of the Confederacy: Yay or Nay?

[AnOminous]

Of course removing monuments and such is historical revisionism so SJWs can walk through the South without being triggered, rather than a movement born of any actual shame of that dark period in history.

There may be shame associated with the Confederacy, but there is also legitimate pride.

 

[Trilby]

There may be shame associated with the Confederacy, but there is also legitimate pride.

 

[AnOminous]

And furthermore, Gettysburg, Pennsylvania must be destroyed.

Fite me irl bitch!

 

[Alec Benson Leary]

Sometimes I feel like the argument that we should be so ashamed of the Confederation's part in our history could easily be adapted to find terrible shame in the Revolutionary War, whether you're targeting loyalists or secessionists. Somehow no one ever looks at the ugliness of that conflict though.

 

[millais]

Sometimes I feel like the argument that we should be so ashamed of the Confederation's part in our history could easily be adapted to find terrible shame in the Revolutionary War, whether you're targeting loyalists or secessionists. Somehow no one ever looks at the ugliness of that conflict though.

It helps that the Americans and British kind of jointly encouraged the relocation/immigration of the vast majority of Loyalists to Canada after the war, so the descendants of the historically aggrieved side are not extensively represented in the modern US population.

 

[AnOminous]

Sometimes I feel like the argument that we should be so ashamed of the Confederation's part in our history could easily be adapted to find terrible shame in the Revolutionary War, whether you're targeting loyalists or secessionists. Somehow no one ever looks at the ugliness of that conflict though.

Every single war in the history of humanity had utterly awful crimes associated with it that murdered and tortured completely innocent victims.

War itself is the vilest crime humanity ever committed against itself.

So should we pretend it never happens at all? And just wait until it does again?

 

[Trilby]

Sometimes I feel like the argument that we should be so ashamed of the Confederation's part in our history could easily be adapted to find terrible shame in the Revolutionary War, whether you're targeting loyalists or secessionists. Somehow no one ever looks at the ugliness of that conflict though.

I suppose it's another 85-90 years out of the way from the Civil War.

Every single war in the history of humanity had utterly awful crimes associated with it that murdered and tortured completely innocent victims.

War itself is the vilest crime humanity ever committed against itself.

So should we pretend it never happens at all? And just wait until it does again?

Thank you! We should remember!

 

[Caesare]

I have a feeling that if they actually did start removing monuments, we'd have a situation with the confederacy similar to how Germany views its history with WWII; we could scrub it clean on the surface so as to not attract controversy, but the rest of the world still knows and openly talks about it.

I can sympathize with the Germans a bit more, wanting to remove blatant symbols of the Nazi regime in Germany, due to it being a short lived regime that not only wanted to conquer Europe, but also wanted to exterminate an entire group of people (and nearly succeeded due to the industrialized efficiency in which they carried out the genocide).

Sure, keep the concentration camps as tourist destinations, museums, and reminders of what can happen when a particularly charismatic leader gains control of a powerful nation and uses the population to build a war machine capable of successfully invading most of their neighbors. Then rounding up, kidnapping, and forcing ethnic undesirables into crowded, fenced off ghettos before sending them in crowded trains to camps where they will be worked to death and systematically slaughtered with industrial efficiency in such a way that the world had never witnessed until that point.

My point is, I have zero problem with Germany wanting to remove blatant symbols of Nazism, because the German people of today certainly don't want to be reminded of such a dark period in their nation's history. However, a statue of a brave General unconnected to the Holocaust should be preserved, as well as graveyards of the dead Wehrmacht soldiers who were merely patriots following the orders of their superiors, fighting for their country

This is night and day when compared to maintaining statues and monuments of the former Confederacy. For one, the monuments are typically of famous CSA Generals and battlefields. This is part of history, of CSA history and American history. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the United States is a young country without many historical monuments compared to our brothers and sisters in Continental Europe. It is of utmost importance that we maintain these monuments rather than removing them because a small minority decides that they "hurt their feelings" this week.

This is a very dangerous precedent to set. First they want to remove Confederate monuments, but what is next? It's very interesting to note that one of the main proponents (besides Mayor Landriue) who had been pushing for the removal of these monuments in New Orleans has a long history of doing this type of thing.

Back in the early 1990's, he successfully had the name of a primary school's name changed. The reason? Because the school's name was "George Washington Elementary".

This is too ridiculous to make up. Our very first President, hero of the Revolutionary War. Even he wasn't safe from this radical black Professor (a card carrying communist, by the way) and his cronies in the City Council. His reason? Because George Washington owned slaves at one point.

Again, instead of respecting the Father of the United States, a brilliant Statesmen and a Revolutionary War hero, this pseudo intellectual communist who is completely unapologetic about hating America, Capitalism, and everything that entails, takes pride in tearing down American culture.

Marc Morial was mayor when the communist had George Washington Elementary changed (Mayor Morial was another problem), when Mayor Nagin was elected, the communist was largely ignored since Nagin was more of a pro business Democratic candidate who cared little for nonsense like that (Though Nagin had an entire different set of problems as he went to prison for corruption) but now that we have Landriue as mayor and his term will be ending soon. the time was ripe for the communist professor to strike again.

I love my city. But living here is like a circus. Between the Mafia running the Quarters, the police (Who do a great job, all things considered.) I can't think of another city's police force that could successfully handle the millions of people that descend upon the city during Mardi Gras, drinking, drugging, and acting like maniacs.

 

[Trilby]

This is night and day when compared to maintaining statues and monuments of the former Confederacy. For one, the monuments are typically of famous CSA Generals and battlefields. This is part of history, of CSA history and American history. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the United States is a young country without many historical monuments compared to our brothers and sisters in Continental Europe. It is of utmost importance that we maintain these monuments rather than removing them because a small minority decides that they "hurt their feelings" this week.

It does make it seem like they want to remove actual people permanently, or classify them as "non-persons" due to their actions. This certainly is a dangerous precedent to take, to suggest these generals never existed.

Back in the early 1990's, he successfully had the name of a primary school's name changed. The reason? Because the school's name was "George Washington Elementary".

Now that is just wrong.

This is too ridiculous to make up. Our very first President, hero of the Revolutionary War. Even he wasn't safe from this radical black Professor (a card carrying communist, by the way) and his cronies in the City Council. His reason? Because George Washington owned slaves at one point.

Again, instead of respecting the Father of the United States, a brilliant Statesmen and a Revolutionary War hero, this pseudo intellectual communist who is completely unapologetic about hating America, Capitalism, and everything that entails, takes pride in tearing down American culture.

Marc Morial was mayor when the communist had George Washington Elementary changed (Mayor Morial was another problem), when Mayor Nagin was elected, the communist was largely ignored since Nagin was more of a pro business Democratic candidate who cared little for nonsense like that (Though Nagin had an entire different set of problems as he went to prion for corruption) but now that we have Landriue as mayor and his term will be ending soon. the time was ripe for the communist professor to strike again.

I love my city. But living here is like a circus. Between the Mafia running the Quarters, the police (Who do a great job, all things considered. I can't think of another city that could handle the millions of people that descend upon the city during Mardi Gras, drinking, drugging, and acting like maniacs.

I bet it is.

 

[charmaide]

Removing monuments of the confederacy isn't the best course of action. In a sense, you are removing history even if it is unsavory. The best way not to make mistakes in order to not repeat the mistakes made in the past, but that requires acknowledging the past.

If it is scrubbed away, how could we know we're repeating the same mistakes we had done?

(Late edit. Something was off.)

 

[Alec Benson Leary]

Sure, keep the concentration camps as tourist destinations, museums, and reminders of what can happen when a particularly charismatic leader gains control of a powerful nation and uses the population to build a war machine capable if successfully invading most of their neighbors.

Maybe they should open up a modern college campus as a monument to remind people then.

I started that as a joke but maybe there's something to it. Maybe teaching history through spectacles like monuments would be more effective of we found a fair and creative way to make blatant comparisons to the ignorant radicalism going on in current times. Not sure how to do that in a non-partisan way, but it seems worth considering.

 

[TheProdigalStunna]

Let's be frank, there is no shame, no "admission of a dark history," in confederate monuments.

As there shouldn't be. There is no reason to apologize for celebrating men who fought courageously in the face of war criminals for a legitimate succession. I'm not even a Southerner, but wave that Rebel flag high and proud, and tell the haters to suck it.

 

[Trilby]

Let's be frank, there is no shame, no "admission of a dark history," in confederate monuments.

As there shouldn't be. There is no reason to apologize for celebrating men who fought courageously in the face of war criminals for a legitimate succession. I'm not even a Southerner, but wave that Rebel flag high and proud, and tell the haters to suck it.

Thank you!

When I think of how extreme such things could be, I don't think I want to be around if they start weeding out people based on their ancestral history. Now that's way too far off base!

 

[Yutyrannus]

Nay.

It's history. These people are an important fragment of United States history and should be embraced as such. I was at Appomattox once and the ranger guy who was giving an informational tour said something along the lines of "These guys shouldn't be seen as angels or devils. They're just people in history that were just doing their job and what they thought were right."

So, in lieu of that, imo Confederate monuments and historical sites should be embraced as just that: history.

 

[Trilby]

Nay.

It's history. These people are an important fragment of United States history and should be embraced as such. I was at Appomattox once and the ranger guy who was giving an informational tour said something along the lines of "These guys shouldn't be seen as angels or devils. They're just people in history that were just doing their job and what they thought were right."

So, in lieu of that, imo Confederate monuments and historical sites should be embraced as just that: history.

Which some people feel needs to be swept under the rug and never be heard of again.

 

[Caesare]

Which some people feel needs to be swept under the rug and never be heard of again.

Yup. And these people are known as fools.

Let's be frank, there is no shame, no "admission of a dark history," in confederate monuments.

As there shouldn't be. There is no reason to apologize for celebrating men who fought courageously in the face of war criminals for a legitimate succession. I'm not even a Southerner, but wave that Rebel flag high and proud, and tell the haters to suck it.

Exactly! The United States is a nation that reveres the men and women who fought and died defending their country, their families, and their ideals. Removing monuments that have been standing nearly as long as the country itself existed is like a slap in the face to all American veterans who served their country

 

[Trilby]

Yup. And these people are known as fools.



Exactly! The United States is a nation that reveres the men and women who fought and died defending their country, their families, and their ideals. Removing monuments that have been standing nearly as long as the country itself existed is like a slap in the face to all American veterans who served their country

I want to think these people never did well in history class like I had.

 

[TheImportantFart]

 

[millais]

I know we have been shitting on polls since the US presidential election, but this is perhaps the most impartial way to gauge current breakdown of public opinion rather than just blindly assuming the loudest and angriest voices in the fray are the most popular.

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-con... Sample and Tables_August 17, 2017.pdf#page=3

Most interesting figures to me: 44% of blacks and 65% of Latinos ok with keeping the statues around.

 

[invalid]

While you guys were discussing this, the monuments were all removed and destroyed in the night, sorry!