[Resolved] Domain Registrar & Epik's Seizure

[The Connected Nose]

How do you calculate that though? Is it based on peoples relative wealth? Does a rich person get more than a poor person? Does someone with a business get more than someone without? And then we're back at calculating again?

(Obligatory IANAL) Libel per se is different from libel per quod (normal libel), as in the latter, you have to be able to prove damages in order for your case to have standing.

To compare it to criminal proceedings, libel per quod would be like a mens rea offense, where even if the act was criminal, you also have to prove intent. However, libel per se would be akin to an absolute liability offense, wherein only the fact that it happens needs to be proved, and the defendant can't rely on any defense like due diligence, necessity, etc.

Libel per se falls into the latter category, in that only that the statements themselves were made needs to be proven (which is obvious from their Xitter feed), and that they meet the criteria for defamation (which in a sane world, Epik's statements absolutely would).

From Cornell Law School:

Libel per se is a defamatory statement that is actionable in itself. To constitute libel per se, the words themselves must be damaging to the affected person. As a result, words that can reasonably be interpreted as having another meaning do not constitute libel per se. Whether words of a publication are libelous per se is a question of law for the court. In making this determination, courts, like the Ohio Supreme Court, have stated that language that itself brings one's character into ridicule or contempt, or injuriously affected his trade or profession constitute libel per se.

New York courts have articulated the standard that determines whether the tenor of the language "would naturally import a criminal or disgraceful charge in the mind of an intelligent man."

Examples of libel per se include statements that falsely claim that a person committed a crime of moral turpitude and claims that a person suffers from a “loathsome disease.” Unlike in a traditional action for libel, in an action libel per se, malice is presumed, and damages may be recovered without the plaintiff needing to plead or proving special damages (libel that requires a showing of damages are sometimes referred to as "libel per quod").

The suit could simply demand a full and public admission of guilt with an equally public retraction of their statements, costs and fees involved with pursuing the litigation, and "any and all other relief the court deems just and proper under applicable laws" which, let's face it, would be fuck-all because no judge would want to actually reward an "eebil nazi" for successfully defending themselves. But it would at least mean that there is a legal record of Epik's claims being shown false in a court of law, and anyone who tries to attack KF later on by parroting Epik's claims can likely be sued with the previous case as precedent.

 

[BallsOfaKiwi]

The suit could simply demand a full and public admission of guilt with an equally public retraction of their statements, costs and fees involved with pursuing the litigation, and "any and all other relief the court deems just and proper under applicable laws" which, let's face it, would be fuck-all because no judge would want to actually reward an "eebil nazi" for successfully defending themselves. But it would at least mean that there is a legal record of Epik's claims being shown false in a court of law, and anyone who tries to attack KF later on by parroting Epik's claims can likely be sued with the previous case as precedent.

Your post was an absolute treat to read and I appreciate it but I still do not understand what quite what this last part means. If the judge is objective and not subjective and doesn't judge Null for being a bad bad hombre, how would he even go about in deeming the damages "just and proper?" , what would be the yardstick they would use?



Or is it basically just their royal pejorative to make it up? lol.

 

[The Connected Nose]

This was an absolute treat to read and I appreciate it but I still do not understand what that menas. If the judge is objective and not subjective and doesn't judge Null for being a bad bad hombre, how would he even go about in deeming the damages "just and proper?" , what would be the yardstick they would use?



Or is it basically just their royal pejorative to make it up? lol.

As I understand that part of a demand it's basically "give us whatever else we're legally entitled to based on how bad you think we were wronged", and would pretty much be something the judge pulls out of his ass as long as he cites relevant statutes and case law to justify it. Most of the time it's just used to scare the defendant into settling, with the implication being "the court could decide you owe much, much more than what we're asking for."

So like I was saying, the real goal is just to have a legal record that Epik done fucked up and be forced to undo their fuckery. Any damages awarded by the court would be icing on the cake.

 

[BallsOfaKiwi]

As I understand that part of a demand it's basically "give us whatever else we're legally entitled to based on how bad you think we were wronged", and would pretty much be something the judge pulls out of his ass as long as he cites relevant statutes and case law to justify it. Most of the time it's just used to scare the defendant into settling, with the implication being "the court could decide you owe much, much more than what we're asking for."

So like I was saying, the real goal is just to have a legal record that Epik done fucked up and be forced to undo their fuckery. Any damages awarded by the court would be icing on the cake.

Cool. I learned something new today, thanks dude!

 

[TheClappening]

Not necessary with libel per se. The accusations themselves are the damage.

How do you calculate that though? Is it based on peoples relative wealth? Does a rich person get more than a poor person? Does someone with a business get more than someone without? And then we're back at calculating again?

The per se part of defamation per se is mostly there to allow you to survive an anti-SLAPP or similar pretrial motion to dismiss.

If this goes to trial Null will have to prove some hard number of damages.

Going back to the (now dead because of a retarded lawyer) Vic Mignogna lawsuit, he was accused of things like battery and various sexual misconduct. Accusations like that are considered so heinous that damages are presumed to have happened for purposes of anti-SLAPPs.

During the course of the lawsuit, he also submitted some evidence of actual damages he had suffered, such as various conventions that canceled him after the accusations and the amount of money he had made at those conventions in previous years. That would be evidence needed at trial, since he would have to prove the economic harm done to him by the defamation.

In this hypothetical lawsuit, being accused of hosting pedo porn would be defamatory per se, because anything involving child porn is heinous.

If it goes to trial, Null would need numbers. I assume the money Null has wasted scrambling to find new hosts after previous hosts dropped him would be one such number.

 

[BallsOfaKiwi]

The per se part of defamation per se is mostly there to allow you to survive an anti-SLAPP or similar pretrial motion to dismiss.

If this goes to trial Null will have to prove some hard number of damages.

Going back to the (now dead because of a retarded lawyer) Vic Mignogna lawsuit, he was accused of things like battery and various sexual misconduct. Accusations like that are considered so heinous that damages are presumed to have happened for purposes of anti-SLAPPs.

During the course of the lawsuit, he also submitted some evidence of actual damages he had suffered, such as various conventions that canceled him after the accusations and the amount of money he had made at those conventions in previous years. That would be evidence needed at trial, since he would have to prove the economic harm done to him by the defamation.

In this hypothetical lawsuit, being accused of hosting pedo porn would be defamatory per se, because anything involving child porn is heinous.

If it goes to trial, Null would need numbers. I assume the money Null has wasted scrambling to find new hosts after previous hosts dropped him would be one such number.

I understand that this would be good for Null and bad for Epik but would he have to?
Based on your previous posts, couldn't he just claim 1 dollar in damages and make it about principles instead?
Or would that have been a facetious lawsuit then?


Im just curious about libel, can you sue for libel even if youve essentially taken no or just minimal actual damages?

 

[Osama Bin Laden]

other than gushing that they are SLANDEROUS trolls that mentioned me, i do want to say this

thank you epik, llc for using one of my posts as a piss poor attempt at defaming a website that does nothing but document and laugh at retards on the internet (many of which happen to be trannies ). you claimed photos/videos on the thread we used FROM AN XVIDEOS ACCOUNT were child porn, despite being provenly false.

i am not only glad that hundreds, if not thousands of random internet autists can come together for a greater cause but i can only hope this company burns along with the rest that has fucked the internet. i can only hope this will set a precedent that ISPs/companies should not have the authority to police speech on the internet.

 

[Crocodylus Acutus]

This bullshit finally inspired me to make an account and not be a free riding lurker. The lurker reserves are mobilizing, as the next stage of total retard war commences.

 

[TheClappening]

I understand that this would be good for Null and bad for Epik but would he have to?
Based on your previous posts, couldn't he just claim 1 dollar in damages and make it about principles instead?
Or would that have been a facetious lawsuit then?


Im just curious about libel, can you sue for libel even if youve essentially taken no or just minimal actual damages?

I think I've heard of lawsuits (I want to say involving constitutional violations) where the plaintiff sued for nominal damages (like a buck) but were focused on getting a court decision into place to solve said violations. So that's possible, sure.

As for suing when taking no damage, I guess you could. You can sue for anything. At the end of the day, though, a trial can really only award money, and to award money you need evidence that the defamation caused you tangible monetary harm.

 

[Banana Hammock]

Im just curious about libel, can you sue for libel even if youve essentially taken no or just minimal actual damages

In this case, the damage is to KF's reputation, and the cure would be a public retraction, from what I understand. Given the accusations, there might also be punitive damages.

The real prize is a court ruling that the farms does not, in fact, host CP.

 

[TheClappening]

In this case, the damage is to KF's reputation, and the cure would be a public retraction, from what I understand. Given the accusations, there might also be punitive damages.

The real prize is a court ruling that the farms does not, in fact, host CP.

A retraction would have to be an out of court settlement. A court can't force someone to make a statement. If they did, that's compelled speech, which is a violation of first amendment rights.

Again, all a court can award is money.

Second part is completely true, though. A finding that KF does not, in fact, traffic in child porn would be huge.

 

[Cascade]

I'm not familiar with US law, but how does this work if the original tweets have been deleted? Do screenshots/archives count as evidence?

 

[Pignat]

I'm not familiar with US law, but how does this work if the original tweets have been deleted? Do screenshots/archives count as evidence?

If someone is given notice that they are likely to be sued, the jury is instructed that any attempts to remove the evidence are to be viewed as the most damning evidence possible.

 

[Erich Raeder]

I’ll chip in 100 bucks or so as long as I don’t have to bother with crypto. If they would realistically get a bloody nose in court for this level of arrogance I’d be more than happy to help.

I'm not familiar with US law, but how does this work if the original tweets have been deleted? Do screenshots/archives count as evidence?

There’s a ruling from 2018 which should act as a precedent that screenshots in combination with matching archived webpages are legitimate evidence:

https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2018/09/04/wayback_machine_legit/

 

[BallsOfaKiwi]

I’ll chip in 100 bucks or so as long as I don’t have to bother with crypto. If they would realistically get a bloody nose in court for this level of arrogance I’d be more than happy to help.


There’s a ruling from 2018 which should act as a precedent that screenshots in combination with matching archived webpages are legitimate evidence:

https://www.theregister.com/AMP/2018/09/04/wayback_machine_legit/

Archive everything has a new meaning now.

 

[Apteryx Owenii]

Yeah, He already put some info in the OP lower down about escrows which is awesome by him. The only question/missing info that remains is what happens to that money if the project doesn't go through.

I suspect it's not hard to return money in escrow in theory but I just realized how people may want to donate anonymously and that becomes a whole different issue

Personally, I'm not too miffed as, based on the silver sale, I know Null will be making a good faith effort to actually do this if he starts accepting money for it. If it doesn't happen regardless I will be disappointed but not mad.

 

[Wy4M]

*edit* To clarify, indeed it is the same uwu.tv ceo.

Indeed, If I may add:
The twitter id for his current account Miaouwo is 1213251304639721473
Before that, id 1213251304639721473 had the username tvUwU

In the screenshot of this archived tvUWU tweet he also mentions his other twitter account CEO: Miaoooww

https://archive.is/TU0o6

You can easily check this yourself.
This will redirect to his current account Miaouwo: twitter.com/i/user/1213251304639721473

If you view the source of the archived page https://archive.is/TU0o6 and lookup the userid then you'll see it belonged to tvuwu.

 

[mlanguishi]

Dang, I can't believe they pulled a Dan Olson, but Olson had actual CP. Or whatever he was accused of.. Blah blah. I don't care to hear much about pedo allegations/

 

[Poonocchio]

They are doubling down on the retardedness like a toddler because severe autism. It's insane to see companies like this (and Opera) not tard wrangling their employees or even hiring complete spastics with no emotion regulation in the first place.

 

[mindlessobserver]

If this goes to trial Null will have to prove some hard number of damages.

Per Se defamation actually carries statutory damages. Anything added to that would be punitive damages, and then actual damages