Sperg about comic books here

[jspit2.0]

Theres new capeshit by japs, Batman justice buster and Superman mumen something. Its great especially the Batman one. Probably DC is seeing them being outsold by Manga and trying to make themselves Manga, Id take it more than modern capeshit.

When the Japanese do superheros better than the culture that created them...

The plot synopsis for Ms Marvel 3 (with Jubilee on the cover) seems to indicate it's going to take place in the dream world. And given that Gambit/Rogue are on the cover, it may be a case where the two are dreaming of Jubilee and it being exploited by someone like Nightmare (who has been reassigned as an X-Men villain).

Damn. Anyhting to make her a real success.

>Ms Marvel's a mutant who's powers hadn't manifested when she got turned into an Inhuman
HA she was supposed to be one of the main Inhuman during that time period when they tried (and failed) to replace the mutants with the Inhumans and now she's the very thing that she was created to help get rid of.

Well, the Inhumans thing was a cynical ploy due to the X-men rights situation, since resolved. Looking back, they bendised x-men and ppoured talent on the inhumans; at the same time destroying everything an Chad Inhumans fan liked about the franchise.

The last four years of X-Men have felt like boring anime filler. Nothing ever happens. Nothing's at stake. Nothing meaningful or interesting happens with the characters, who all basically function as out-of-character, agency-deprived vessels for whatever plot hijinks people like Duggen or Gillen have planned that week.

I've heard people describe the 90's era of X-Men as empty calories--just a lot of fighting and excess, without any real plot--but this era is arguably even more vapid and oversaturated with events that do fuck all to advance the plot or characters.

90s had Jim Lee, While Portactio, and rob Liefeld pouring creativity on the franchise. than you had PAD X-factor with Larry Stroman, Ian Churchill and Jeph Loeb on Cable, Jay Faeber with Dodson on Gen X. Alan Davis Excalibur. The list goes on.

90s X made up for lackluster/bad writing/editorial with great artwork and lots of energy and creativity. Today has none of that.

X-Men was almost never good, hot take. The only stuff which was good about the X-Men were the spinoffs and stories where they were barely involved. Stuff like Enemy of the State, Days of Future Past, Old Man Logan, Frank Millers Wolverine run Wolverine #1-#4, Ruins and occasionally X Men the End, basically most of the Wolverine stuff and very few of the X Men stuff cause Wolverine is Marvels Batman character wise. The movies did better than the books there, people who praise Claremont and Lees X-Men are the same soyboys who hold up 90s mediocrity like Death of Superman, Knightfall and Crisis on Infinite Earths as DCs best work. No, Morrisons X-Men is not good.

I'm not an X-stan and even I know this is a terrible take.

Neal Adams/Jim Steranko/Jack Kirby put out amazing artwork. It's telling you mention Old Man Logan/Enemy of the State, of all things.

LifeDeath, Wounded Wolf, Dark Pheonix Saga, Genosha, Earthfall, Asgardian Wars. That's not including the initial Excalibur run (his attempt to match DC's JLI, New Mutants aka Teen Titans, and non Claremont X titles).

The Jim Lee stuff is a mix. The issues look great, the stories decline as Claremont loses his tug of war with Lee/Portacio over the books direction.

So no, you bring up Mark Millar's crap as better than Prime Claremont X-books? And then you use the movies???

I'm not touching Morrison's material. It's unnecessary seeing as you highlight as superior a run that's high point is Wolverine waxing about how brave and stronk Northstar is as a fag and how Bruce Banner fucked his cousin.

 

[Georgio Cocklord]

Neal Adams/Jim Steranko/Jack Kirby put out amazing artwork. It's telling you mention Old Man Logan/Enemy of the State, of all things.

Maybe, X Men is supposed to be a team story and usually it falls prey to the worst tropes of team capeshit Ive seen. No X Men character not named Wolverine has good enough characterization to carry a story themselves. A lot of the team stories fall apart unless they have some big arching in world event like the movies do which the comics rarely do. Ill take a look at the stuff youve mentioned but I doubt it will reach the heights of the Avengers, which itself is alright at best being Marvels best team capeshit. But thats probably just me, I like solo stories more than team stories cause team stories have shit characterization and fall apart when done as issues and not as graphic novels with overarching events.

So no, you bring up Mark Millar's crap as better than Prime Claremont X-books? And then you use the movies???

Old Man Logan, Enemy of the State and Frank Millers Wolverine 1-4 to me are like the Dark knight returns, Long Halloween and Batman Year One to me. I dont care about the more edgelordy nonsense like Northstar and Hulks Incest babies, I care about the road trip, about the worldbuilding and stuff like the fight with Red Skull and the Japan arc.

 

[A Hot Potato]

Fuck Tom DeFalco too, I don't know how you can take all the neat ideas Roger Stern brough to the Spidey table and just make them so fucking uninteresting.

Things have improved dramatically with David Michelinie so far, getting so close to Venom now it hurts.

 

[Nick Obre]

I'm gonna say it:

FUCK CLAREMONT

 

[Anon88]

I'm surprised some people here don't like Claremont's X-Men run. It's by far the one I like the best in terms of x-men comics and I always considered it to be some of Marvel Comics best works ever.

 

[MirrorNoir]

Early 1990s X-Men is a weird time if looked at in hindsight.

It was for a lot of people, when they first started reading the book and the influx of new readers combined with the rise of the X-Men cartoon, made for a situation where the backlash towards Claremont and Simonson being driven out was all but wholesale neutralized, as was the franchise in turn being able to survive Lee/Portocia/Liefeld/Silvestri fucking off to form Image too.

You also had, for lack of a better word, a full-scale relaunch moment the fall of 1991 as well with the Muir Island Saga being the true grand finale for what the X-Men had been for about 17 years IIRC under Claremont. X-Men #1 and Uncanny X-Men #281 were new reader jumping on points for the X-Men in general and X-Factor #71 was another ground floor entry point with a brand new X-Factor team forming. And you had Marvel revealing Wolverine's origin, the stuff with Cable's past and his rivalry with Stryfe, the Legacy Virus, Bishop and the X-Traitor, the Phalanx, and Mr Sinister, Magneto, and Apocalypse lurking in the background.

It was a golden time if you were a new X-Men fan as far as Marvel having created a massive jumping on point for fans who, to this day, have loyalty to this period (IE Muir Island Saga through either Phalanx Covenent or Age of Apocalypse or Onslaught depending on when you think this golden age ended). And while the Claremont stans and those who just hate the Image guys, tend to malign it, it's still the last time Marvel managed to truly reinvent a major franchise and hook a massive amoun of fans who still buy comics to this day.

 

[jspit2.0]

I'm surprised some people here don't like Claremont's X-Men run. It's by far the one I like the best in terms of x-men comics and I always considered it to be some of Marvel Comics best works ever.

Well, considering I'm not the biggest fan, it's awkward to have to argue the other way.

Usually I rant bile about his Wolverine fixation, Kitty Pryde, and God Loves Man Kills.

Still can't argue it's greatness.

Early 1990s X-Men is a weird time if looked at in hindsight.

It was for a lot of people, when they first started reading the book and the influx of new readers combined with the rise of the X-Men cartoon, made for a situation where the backlash towards Claremont and Simonson being driven out was all but wholesale neutralized, as was the franchise in turn being able to survive Lee/Portocia/Liefeld/Silvestri fucking off to form Image too.

At the time, I feel like Claremont was as gracious as a person good be after Lee and co basically coup'd him.

You also had, for lack of a better word, a full-scale relaunch moment the fall of 1991 as well with the Muir Island Saga being the true grand finale for what the X-Men had been for about 17 years IIRC under Claremont. X-Men #1 and Uncanny X-Men #281 were new reader jumping on points for the X-Men in general and X-Factor #71 was another ground floor entry point with a brand new X-Factor team forming. And you had Marvel revealing Wolverine's origin, the stuff with Cable's past and his rivalry with Stryfe, the Legacy Virus, Bishop and the X-Traitor, the Phalanx, and Mr Sinister, Magneto, and Apocalypse lurking in the background.

The fucking Psylock retcons.

It was a golden time if you were a new X-Men fan as far as Marvel having created a massive jumping on point for fans who, to this day, have loyalty to this period (IE Muir Island Saga through either Phalanx Covenent or Age of Apocalypse or Onslaught depending on when you think this golden age ended). And while the Claremont stans and those who just hate the Image guys, tend to malign it, it's still the last time Marvel managed to truly reinvent a major franchise and hook a massive amoun of fans who still buy comics to this day.

I always wondered how much of that year post Jim, Rob, and while was leftovers from them.

 

[MirrorNoir]

I always wondered how much of that year post Jim, Rob, and while was leftovers from them.

By all accounts, outside of Harras declaring that there would be a big crossover in 1992, nothing really was planned prior to the Image exodus.

Fabian immediately started resetting X-Force into New Mutants lite plus his Deadpool/Vanessa story makes no sense compared to what Rob was doing with Deadpool and Juggernaut/Black Tom Cassidy, combined with how the Upstarts storyline got soft rebooted and Colossus's brother written out by Lobdell. And Peter David was stewing that X-Factor wasn't being given Excalibr status and had to be connected to the greater X-Men universe becaue of fans caring about the characters and their place/reaction to the greater X-Men universe.

Some have speculated that Lee might have been planning for his swan song (X-Men #10-11) to have been his idea for the crossover since his Longshot/Mojo story is super compressed and has a lot of story beats and plot holes that would make a lot more sense if you were thinking it was going to be a crossover story.

 

[Georgio Cocklord]

I'm surprised some people here don't like Claremont's X-Men run. It's by far the one I like the best in terms of x-men comics and I always considered it to be some of Marvel Comics best works ever.

Claremont and Lees XMen was one of those products of the 90s, if you know 90s comic books you know they're actually really shit and mediocre but are praised cause of nostalgia. That xmen run specifically is all just show, smoke and mirrors no actual substance. There are few actually great comic books from the 90s capable of withstanding the test of time and as most capeshit bled into mainstream television and video gaming the comics exceedingly dropped in quality. When people talk about 90s capeshit they mean Batman TAS, Superman TAS, the Tim Burton Batman movies, the X men show, the spawn show and the like. Theyre not talking about knightfall, death of Superman, daredevil losing his memory, biker chick wonder woman, hal Jordan becoming evil and all of that crap. I will admit, the Loeb and Sale Batman trilogy is good, death in the family and under the red hood are sorta good, some of the spiderman shit is sorta good but the rest are just nostalgia. This I will admit though, Marvel isn't capable of doing good character work and solo storylines but good at team capeshit with overarching plots, DC sucks at team capeshit and is really good at solo storylines and excellent character work. Some of marvels best character work came with 90s and early 2000s Wolverine and 90s Spiderman while some of DCs best team capeshit is late 80s JLA going into early 90s.

 

[MirrorNoir]

The hate for the Claremont X-Men run comes from hype backlash, the fact that it's not been widely reprinted (for ages, Essential X-Men was the closest thing to an in-print version of the Claremont X-Men run), the rise of the Ellis clique who hated traditional super-hero comics like Claremont's X-Men run, and the fact that his later comeback runs were widely reviled by even his most staunch fanboys.

 

[jspit2.0]

Claremont and Lees XMen was one of those products of the 90s, if you know 90s comic books you know they're actually really shit and mediocre but are praised cause of nostalgia. That xmen run specifically is all just show, smoke and mirrors no actual substance.

Claremont's run started in the 70s, throught the 80s, and into the 90s. But do go on.

There are few actually great comic books from the 90s capable of withstanding the test of time and as most capeshit

Ho. That's a bold, false, statement.

Sin City, Hellboy, and hitman. Since superheroes seem to trigger you...

bled into mainstream television and video gaming the comics exceedingly dropped in quality. When people talk about 90s capeshit they mean Batman TAS, Superman TAS, the Tim Burton Batman movies, the X men show, the spawn show and the like. Theyre not talking about knightfall, death of Superman, daredevil losing his memory, biker chick wonder woman, hal Jordan becoming evil and all of that crap.

Stunned. And floored. You do know that Knightfall and Death of Superman were all one year, right? And if you actually read comics in the 90s you'd know the Bat books were exquisite both before and after Kightfall. Dixon and Nolan on Tec, Alan Grant Shadow, Jones and Moench? That's just DC.

I admit Green Lantern and allot of Marvel was shit, but you need to read some comics.

I will admit, the Loeb and Sale Batman trilogy is good, death in the family and under the red hood are sorta good,

Ouch. Death in the family? Red fucking Hood?

I'm not even going to touch this with a ten foot poll. Read. Fucking. Comics.

some of the spiderman shit is sorta good but the rest are just nostalgia.

From the 90s??? I mean, yeah, allot of 90s spidey sucked. Marvel had a horrible period from when Jim Shooter got forced out and Rob and Jim got asked to bail them out where editors didn't do their jobs.

This I will admit though, Marvel isn't capable of doing good character work and solo storylines but good at team capeshit

Twice. It's getting a little cringe.

with overarching plots, DC sucks at team capeshit

Fuck off. Teen Titans, BATO, JLI, JLA with Morrison, JSA. What are you smoking?

and is really good at solo storylines and excellent character work. Some of marvels best character work came with 90s and early 2000s Wolverine and 90s Spiderman while some of DCs best team capeshit is late 80s JLA going into early 90s.

Fucking Hama WOlverine? Seriously??????

I'm just....gonna relax. I'll re-read some of Simonson's Thor or Frank's DD. Maybe chase it down with Wolfman's NTT or Alan Davis on Outsiders.

 

[Registration]

I'm surprised some people here don't like Claremont's X-Men run. It's by far the one I like the best in terms of x-men comics and I always considered it to be some of Marvel Comics best works ever.

I hate x-men in general, I really despise it as a concept in the marvel universe and the execution is even worse over the years.

My focus was on them for 00's to around the bendis era. jesus, I fucking hated the bendis era, then I dropped

 

[Anon88]

I hate x-men in general, I really despise it as a concept in the marvel universe and the execution is even worse over the years.

My focus was on them for 00's to around the bendis era. jesus, I fucking hated the bendis era, then I dropped

You made the right choice to drop it. I did the same Bendis is a hack and those x-men comics were some of the worst comics I've ever read. The idea of the original 5 X-men time traveling to the modern area was stupid and everything else was just boring.

 

[MirrorNoir]

Fucking Hama WOlverine? Seriously??????

Hamas run on Wolverine is pretty well loved. Claremont's earlier "Terry and the Pirates" fanfic with Logan subbed in stuff at the start of the Wolverine series is widely reviled and pretty much everything from when Claremont got fired from the book to when Hama took over is crappy filler.

Hama, for better or worse, wrote a decent fan service Wolverine series that was full of what people wanted: Logan hanging with the X-Men, fighting Sabretooth and ninjas, exploring his origin once Weapon X came out, and building on the idea of Logan growing as a character via hardshp (losing his metal skeleton, Mariko's death, finding out his relationship with Silver Fox was a lie and they were never lovers).

 

[Arthur Morgan]

The hate for the Claremont X-Men run comes from hype backlash, the fact that it's not been widely reprinted (for ages, Essential X-Men was the closest thing to an in-print version of the Claremont X-Men run), the rise of the Ellis clique who hated traditional super-hero comics like Claremont's X-Men run, and the fact that his later comeback runs were widely reviled by even his most staunch fanboys.

I don't hate Claremont's run but yeah, the hype ruined it for me. Also probably the fact that I didn't grow up in that time so the stories don't seem that revolutionary to me, I've seen their knock offs, sequels and adaptations first so by the time I got to them, all I could think was "That was it?" Again, not bad, just over hyped.

 

[Kerr Avon]

Judge Anderson

Shamballa is a must and it was recently reprinted in that Essentials line.

Also one thing that 2000AD does that none of the Amerimutt publishers do is their digital stuff isn't locked to their app

You can download a drm free PDF or CBZ from the site to the device of your choice.

Also the Dredd & 2000AD general stuff pops up at least twice a year on Humble Bundle

 

[Registration]

You made the right choice to drop it. I did the same Bendis is a hack and those x-men comics were some of the worst comics I've ever read. The idea of the original 5 X-men time traveling to the modern area was stupid and everything else was just boring.

I remember the point where I was totally done was: bendis made bobby drake gay.

I dont give a shit about bobby, zero fucks, but the fact that he was made gay by bendis (in his last issue, so he didnt even write him as a gay character (he already has his oc being a gay dude and only wrote him in a single issue). He literally made him gay and left.

That was done, to not even say about the reason to the 5 originals going into the future being dark beast shenanigans.

This made me like Generation Hope, a comic where no one liked but at least it was consistent in working with OC characters instead.

And I've heard that mutants are even more cunts in the fucking mutie island krakoa than they were in the san francisco island back in the 10's. Good fucking riddance, I really hope even the MCU movies are shit too

 

[Anon88]

This made me like Generation Hope, a comic where no one liked but at least it was consistent in working with OC characters instead.

I know what you mean I would be a lot more into superhero comics if more of them worked with OC characters instead of just reusing the same ones for decades at this point. When you use them for that long of a time they kind of either end up stale or end up like Bobby Drake completely changed with nothing similar to how he was when he was first created.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

I remember the point where I was totally done was: bendis made bobby drake gay.

I dont give a shit about bobby, zero fucks, but the fact that he was made gay by bendis (in his last issue, so he didnt even write him as a gay character (he already has his oc being a gay dude and only wrote him in a single issue). He literally made him gay and left.

That was done, to not even say about the reason to the 5 originals going into the future being dark beast shenanigans.

This made me like Generation Hope, a comic where no one liked but at least it was consistent in working with OC characters instead.

And I've heard that mutants are even more cunts in the fucking mutie island krakoa than they were in the san francisco island back in the 10's. Good fucking riddance, I really hope even the MCU movies are shit too

Iceman getting turned gay was the worst thing to ever happen to his character. Not just because it's a dumb retcon but because it led to a string of hacks writing him as the most unlikable cunt on the planet.

 

[Nick Obre]

Iceman getting turned gay was the worst thing to ever happen to his character. Not just because it's a dumb retcon but because it led to a string of hacks writing him as the most unlikable cunt on the planet.

The worst part is he will never be anything other than gay now.

Even his fucking design now has a reference to gay fetish gear.