Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
If you watch Those We Left Behind, which is the documentary of DS9... the first couple of minutes or so is the actors reading out viewers letters of complaint about how DS9 turned the show into Politically Correct garbage and its interesting to see, some people were picking up on the idea of the political themes that were a lot more front and centre in this than any other show up to that point. Some of its Muh Raycisms episodes are almost hilarious in how clunky they are... but then admittedly they were then balanced out in the writing usually with someone like Kassidy Yates-Sisko. Heck, Badda Bing Badda Bang is so grossly blatant in this we'd never give it a pass and be dabbing on it for being CURRENT YEAR with how much Avery Brooks rants about how Vegas "Really was" versus Penny Johnson pointing out they can go and enjoy it "how it should have been." There was a degree of it in DS9 that has been burred off with time and the utterly god-awful standard of writers today ramming political ideologies down our throats instead of using political themes as storytelling devices.
The big difference there is subtlety. DS9's writers knew you could tell stories that were inherently political or tackled a sensitive issue without making it feel like the viewer was a bad dog who was having their snout rubbed in shit. DS9 being the peak of that is a testament to the show. I mean, they even tackle religion in a way that is a bit more fair compared to TNG's handling of it. Definitely heavy-handed at times, but they did a great job at predicting things. From the, at the time, San Francisco mayor discussing an interest in cordoning off portions of the city ala Sanctuary districts to some eerie parallels between the War on Terror and the Dominion War. It's just interesting sci-fi at it's best compared to "OH WOW. January 6th bad! Trump bad! GET IT?"
 
Avery Brooks rants about how Vegas "Really was"
Rat Pack member Sammy Davis Jr., as others have said, is the reason the hotels and casinos were desegregated. And Vic Fontaine mostly sings Sinatra songs.

Star-Trek-Vic-Fontaine-Sisko.jpg

Badda Bing Badda Bang is so grossly blatant in this we'd never give it a pass and be dabbing on it
100% the same mentality as ‘ermuhgurd I went to a party and they were doing COKE?,’ w/zero self-awareness.

Star-Trek-Let-That-Be-Your-Last-Battlefield-5.jpg


MV5BZWI4N2NjOGUtMmM2YS00ZjM5LTk1OWQtNGUzNmYxMTBkZGJmXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMzQ2MDUxMTg@._V1_.jpg


Everyone is pissed at Ira and blames him for what happened to Nu Trek when nothing like that ever happened under his direction. Nothing about nonbinary genders, pronouns or rampant Marxist utopias. Just a gay kiss and some Klingon boobs.
 
Last edited:
Rodenberry being disagreeable and retardedly stubborn seems to have been at least every bit as much of a blessing as a curse.

And frankly considering the town and time period he worked in I can understand him growing increasingly irate over time.

But take 'main characters aren't allowed to be in conflict with eachother'. That's a rule Rodenberry held to that get brought up all the time. "How can the writers write if the main characters don't get to be in conflict'.
But then in tng everyone acts like an adult, they're mature, they're not prone to petty interpersonal drama or bitching or various slap fights. And they retain that quality even after Gene had to step back and had less creative power over the show. And in Discovery and Picard people don't.

Perhaps people trend towards low hanging fruit when working at complicated tasks, and on occasion someone needs to be at their ass to make them think a little deeper.

Gene had a lot of goofy and dumb ideas but at its core I think he understood a few things that many don't.

Like there are different ways of thinking and not everyone runs on the same assumptions. And his idea of utopia is it's possible to communicate and cooperate and respect others despite that. That feels like the core idea behind his optimistic visions. Different cultures, different outlooks, different belief systems, different systems, but they're cohesive. They make internal sense. Some can be superior to others, but even inferior ones can have a point. And you have to have the right outlook. And it's not trivial to 'fix' them. And being good sometimes means being ruthless, but not without thought.

And over time the more distant he became from Trek, the more Trek lost that.

And now it's all low-hanging fruit.
 
Everyone is pissed at Ira and blames him for what happened to Nu Trek when nothing like that ever happened under his direction, Nothing about Nonbinary genders, pronouns or rampant Marxist utopias. Just a gay kiss and some Klingon boobs.

Nah I don't blame Ira, I just point out there's always been someone bitching about how newer Trek has "always sucked" or "gone too PC" despite its obvious moralising being part of its DNA. Kirkman's to blame for all that modern shit and its taken several movies and 7 seasons across two different shows to largely beat it out of him.
 
in tng everyone acts like an adult, they're mature, they're not prone to petty interpersonal drama or bitching or various slap fights. And in Discovery and Picard people don't.
It's kind of an obvious truism: As a show progresses, I notice it begins to take the form of a soap opera. And everyone watching seems okay with it.

8kkfql0cm8a81.jpg


ngl I got sucked into watching Days of Our Lives in the nineties, and Nu Trek feels very similar.
 
Last edited:
Nah I don't blame Ira, I just point out there's always been someone bitching about how newer Trek has "always sucked" or "gone too PC" despite its obvious moralising being part of its DNA.

I've in no way thought this through, but I think the difference is old Trek tried to humanize so to speak and relate to the subjects of its lessons. Gorn, Klingons, Jem'Hadar, Hugh Borg, even the crystalline entity were sympathized with. NuTrek, conversely, picks its targets old white guys and ICE, apparently and others them.
 
It's kind of an obvious truism: As a show progresses, I notice it begins to take the form of a soap opera. And everyone watching seems okay with it.

ngl I got sucked into watching Days of Our Lives in '98, and this feels extremely similar.
It's difficult to make a replacement to it too, because in a way a franchise is an enforced monopoly. The product of star trek isn't 'a scifi show' the product of star trek is 'the star trek universe' and only one company has a right to it.

And to build your own franchise you need time. Years or decades.
 
Just once I want to see nutrek with actual moral conflict. Maybe get an extremely authoritarian govt., and have starfleet see them and maybe even want to do something about it, but end up not, not only because of the prime directive but because you could write the auth govt to be sympathetic, maybe they're only doing it because they have to, etc.. I am annoyed with how black and white it all seems now. My favorite parts of ST are the moral and ethical dilemmas the characters are placed in, where there truly isn't a right answer. Sad to see its moving away from that
 
Just once I want to see nutrek with actual moral conflict. Maybe get an extremely authoritarian govt., and have starfleet see them and maybe even want to do something about it, but end up not, not only because of the prime directive but because you could write the auth govt to be sympathetic, maybe they're only doing it because they have to, etc.. I am annoyed with how black and white it all seems now. My favorite parts of ST are the moral and ethical dilemmas the characters are placed in, where there truly isn't a right answer. Sad to see its moving away from that
The closest nutrek ever got to this in my opinion was the Discovery episode where some non-federation world doesn't want to evacuate the prisoners from its planet thats about to be destroyed because they're crims so fuck em'. Theres an interesting conversation to be had here about the rights allowed to prisoners and if its even the Federations place to interfere, they don't have this conversation of course, instead our heros just bust in to save them because they're the authority on right and wrong.

To make the issue even less nuanced (somehow), they get down there and it turns out the prisoners aren't bad guys at all! They were all unfairly arrested for commiting noble or incredibly minor crimes and so the race that imprisoned them are just evil meanies. The only guy who commited a serious crime feels so bad about it he just kills himself at the end of the episode so they don't even have to engage with the concept of rescuing an actual murderer. To top it all off when the aliens try to confront the Federation about what they've done they are immediatly shut down with some snarky quips and thats the end of that. They didn't even have the main characters explain to them why they chose to take this action, at the end of the day even though they saved a couple of people they have probably only reinforced the idea that prisoners deserve no rights in the eyes of the society they are assisting.

It never fails to amuse me how nutreks attempts to be progressive are so unintelligently written they often end up having the opposite effect, very sad, many such cases!
 
The closest nutrek ever got to this in my opinion was the Discovery episode where some non-federation world doesn't want to evacuate the prisoners from its planet thats about to be destroyed because they're crims so fuck em'. Theres an interesting conversation to be had here about the rights allowed to prisoners and if its even the Federations place to interfere, they don't have this conversation of course, instead our heros just bust in to save them because they're the authority on right and wrong.

To make the issue even less nuanced (somehow), they get down there and it turns out the prisoners aren't bad guys at all! They were all unfairly arrested for commiting noble or incredibly minor crimes and so the race that imprisoned them are just evil meanies. The only guy who commited a serious crime feels so bad about it he just kills himself at the end of the episode so they don't even have to engage with the concept of rescuing an actual murderer. To top it all off when the aliens try to confront the Federation about what they've done they are immediatly shut down with some snarky quips and thats the end of that. They didn't even have the main characters explain to them why they chose to take this action, at the end of the day even though they saved a couple of people they have probably only reinforced the idea that prisoners deserve no rights in the eyes of the society they are assisting.

It never fails to amuse me how nutreks attempts to be progressive are so unintelligently written they often end up having the opposite effect, very sad, many such cases!
It's shit like this that makes me realize these nuTrek shows are written by immature idiots to please immature idiots.
This reeks of a child's understanding of the prison system and it also feels like a really sloppy and lazy way to avoid any moral dilemmas. Instead of exploring the questions you put forward about the rights of criminals, the show just cops out and goes "Well, they did nothing wrong!".

Could be an interesting triage situation: Assume there's a small number of civilians and a large number of prisoners, both groups are so far apart, you can only save one.
Which one do you save?

Do you save the larger group, even though they are criminals or do you save the civilians, even though that group is smaller?

But this isn't what libtards want. They want super-clear cut situations without a need to question anything. In Discovery, the smaller group would be alt-righters that literally want to burn and murder minorities while the prisoners can only be beautiful innocent angels mistreated by the unjust American Alien government. Sublteness? Moral grey zones? Thought provoking conundrums? Fuck that noise, make everything a literal Captain Planet plotline.
 
Rodenberry being disagreeable and retardedly stubborn seems to have been at least every bit as much of a blessing as a curse.

And frankly considering the town and time period he worked in I can understand him growing increasingly irate over time.

But take 'main characters aren't allowed to be in conflict with eachother'. That's a rule Rodenberry held to that get brought up all the time. "How can the writers write if the main characters don't get to be in conflict'.
But then in tng everyone acts like an adult, they're mature, they're not prone to petty interpersonal drama or bitching or various slap fights. And they retain that quality even after Gene had to step back and had less creative power over the show. And in Discovery and Picard people don't.

Perhaps people trend towards low hanging fruit when working at complicated tasks, and on occasion someone needs to be at their ass to make them think a little deeper.

Gene had a lot of goofy and dumb ideas but at its core I think he understood a few things that many don't.

Like there are different ways of thinking and not everyone runs on the same assumptions. And his idea of utopia is it's possible to communicate and cooperate and respect others despite that. That feels like the core idea behind his optimistic visions. Different cultures, different outlooks, different belief systems, different systems, but they're cohesive. They make internal sense. Some can be superior to others, but even inferior ones can have a point. And you have to have the right outlook. And it's not trivial to 'fix' them. And being good sometimes means being ruthless, but not without thought.

And over time the more distant he became from Trek, the more Trek lost that.

And now it's all low-hanging fruit.
The no conflict rule was something that made a lot of sense in TNG, but then started being reinforced far too rigidly by Berman later on. I can see why Roddenberry wanted the TNG writers to avoid churning out episodes that were just 45 minutes of the main characters being assholes to one another, but it started getting ridiculous when Voyager wouldn't even allow the Maquis crewmembers to express different opinions on how to solve a problem.

And then of course Kurtzman couldn't be assed with fixing it, and decided it was better to just throw it out completely.
 
It's shit like this that makes me realize these nuTrek shows are written by immature idiots to please immature idiots.
This reeks of a child's understanding of the prison system and it also feels like a really sloppy and lazy way to avoid any moral dilemmas. Instead of exploring the questions you put forward about the rights of criminals, the show just cops out and goes "Well, they did nothing wrong!".

Could be an interesting triage situation: Assume there's a small number of civilians and a large number of prisoners, both groups are so far apart, you can only save one.
Which one do you save?

Do you save the larger group, even though they are criminals or do you save the civilians, even though that group is smaller?

But this isn't what libtards want. They want super-clear cut situations without a need to question anything. In Discovery, the smaller group would be alt-righters that literally want to burn and murder minorities while the prisoners can only be beautiful innocent angels mistreated by the unjust American Alien government. Sublteness? Moral grey zones? Thought provoking conundrums? Fuck that noise, make everything a literal Captain Planet plotline.
Didn't Orville have an episode where they needed to save people from some doomed planet but they could only ferry them out in small groups and so had to pick who to save? Think it ended with them not being able to save everyone.

The no conflict rule was something that made a lot of sense in TNG, but then started being reinforced far too rigidly by Berman later on. I can see why Roddenberry wanted the TNG writers to avoid churning out episodes that were just 45 minutes of the main characters being assholes to one another, but it started getting ridiculous when Voyager wouldn't even allow the Maquis crewmembers to express different opinions on how to solve a problem.

And then of course Kurtzman couldn't be assed with fixing it, and decided it was better to just throw it out completely.
I'd still take Voyager over nu-Trek especially because the characters seem more likeable in Voyager.
 
Didn't Orville have an episode where they needed to save people from some doomed planet but they could only ferry them out in small groups and so had to pick who to save? Think it ended with them not being able to save everyone.
Yep
 
Yes, it's Star Trek's fault Patrick Stewart was fucking the actress who played Vash (:_(
WHAT?! I need more info on this.

It has one of the best conference discussions and Pulaski's finest moment.
I mentioned the episode some days ago, and recently was reminded of it when discussing Ukraine with a friend. There is a moment when they say that the lives of those people should matter (or something like that) and Worf says the obvious: "it matters to Data." When I first saw the episode, it sounded very cruel, but now I'm older, I can understand Worf. It's not that I don't care about Ukraine or Israel or Palestina, Yemen, name it: but it doesn't matter to me in the same way it matters to others. I really wanted to tell this friend "it matters to you, not me."

The Borg is now Reddit.
You have it backwards. Reddit is the borg.

It's weird, that Seth McFarlane can make better Star Trek as a parody than the people behind Star Trek proper.
Well, Seth knows Star Trek, he watched it and very likely he understood it.
 
Back
Top Bottom