Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Flexo]

Not trying to spoil for our fren @Cpl. Long Dong Silver but the later Vic Fontaine DS9 episodes are pretty bad. I’m not even bringing up the so-called “political” episodes that aged like milk yet fans consider the greatest Trek episodes of all time.

DS9 had way more stinkers than a show considered one of the best scifis ever put on television should have. But then again, as I watched the whole series I got a kind of imposter syndrome feeling that “maybe I’m not a REAL fan?” Stuff the old DS9 diehards love often come across as dumb to me as an old TNG fan (Vic Fontaine, that episode with Jake becoming an old failed writer after Sisko vanished in a time anomaly, the Trill species being terribly developed, and Avery’s 20th/21st century “black man abuse episodes”*). DS9 having some of the best Trek episodes of all-time does save it though (Dominion War stuff is spectacular).

*That one terrible episode die-hard fans consider the best episode is the only time in Trek a character says “nigger” so that may be worth something tbh.

If you hate the Visitor then you have no soul.

Someone should write a Star Trek/Dateline episode parody centered around O'Brien calling Odo to report his wife mysteriously getting vented from an airlock.

Kira can be his defense attorney, Bashir the prosecutor and Sisko as the judge.

Cast Chris Morrison as Luther Stone as Chris Morrison.

Wasn't that the episode she was possessed?

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Not trying to spoil for our fren @Cpl. Long Dong Silver but the later Vic Fontaine DS9 episodes are pretty bad. I’m not even bringing up the so-called “political” episodes that aged like milk yet fans consider the greatest Trek episodes of all time.

DS9 had way more stinkers than a show considered one of the best scifis ever put on television should have. But then again, as I watched the whole series I got a kind of imposter syndrome feeling that “maybe I’m not a REAL fan?” Stuff the old DS9 diehards love often come across as dumb to me as an old TNG fan (Vic Fontaine, that episode with Jake becoming an old failed writer after Sisko vanished in a time anomaly, the Trill species being terribly developed, and Avery’s 20th/21st century “black man abuse episodes”*). DS9 having some of the best Trek episodes of all-time does save it though (Dominion War stuff is spectacular).

*That one terrible episode die-hard fans consider the best episode is the only time in Trek a character says “nigger” so that may be worth something tbh.

DS9 episodes about modern politics are shit, the blaxploitation episodes are dogshit and vic is whatever, the stuff people love is mostly space politics, not irl ones, duet for example or in the pale moonlight.

Surely you can't think that the pale moonlight isn't the GOAT, its easily top 3 star trek episodes alltoogether.

 

[likeacrackado]

Not trying to spoil for our fren @Cpl. Long Dong Silver but the later Vic Fontaine DS9 episodes are pretty bad. I’m not even bringing up the so-called “political” episodes that aged like milk yet fans consider the greatest Trek episodes of all time.

DS9 had way more stinkers than a show considered one of the best scifis ever put on television should have. But then again, as I watched the whole series I got a kind of imposter syndrome feeling that “maybe I’m not a REAL fan?” Stuff the old DS9 diehards love often come across as dumb to me as an old TNG fan (Vic Fontaine, that episode with Jake becoming an old failed writer after Sisko vanished in a time anomaly, the Trill species being terribly developed, and Avery’s 20th/21st century “black man abuse episodes”*). DS9 having some of the best Trek episodes of all-time does save it though (Dominion War stuff is spectacular).

*That one terrible episode die-hard fans consider the best episode is the only time in Trek a character says “nigger” so that may be worth something tbh.

Far Beyond the Stars(the episode where the stupid Prophets send Sisko to the 50s) is definitely a bad point. It feels like something the writers thought they had to include. "The captain is black? Well we need to do episodes about him dealing with American racism!". I accidentally skipped it during my initial watch of Season 6 and was confused when they called back to it later. Sisko's smuggler-wife suddenly deciding to care about the lack of racism in Vic's casino was also ill thought out.

The Ferengi stuff bothers me more. Like the episode where they end up on a cold war military base and go on about how human prejudices are stupid and get in the way of profit. Coming from the species that likes to intentionally mispronounce "human" as a slur and feel superior to others through the entire series. The writers' destruction of Ferengi society in S7 comes across like "oops we made the silly space jews too likeable, time to rapidly reform their civilization at the last moment".

My face when no trad Bajoran wife.

View attachment 5770840

Idk about trad, their feisty streak was part of the hottness factor. That and the nose folds that made it look like they were constantly emoting from passionate frustration/joy.

 

[The Nothingness]

To avoid spoilers, I will just say the Vic and Nog episode that tackles a very real issue is one best in the series.

The Ferengi stuff bothers me more. Like the episode where they end up on a cold war military base and go on about how human prejudices are stupid and get in the way of profit. Coming from the species that likes to intentionally mispronounce "human" as a slur and feel superior to others through the entire series.

Quark saying to Sisko his people are better because didn't have slavery and concentration camps was bad writing since regular viewers would be aware of how the Ferengi treat their females.

 

[naaaaiiiiillllll!!!]

Far Beyond the Stars(the episode where the stupid Prophets send Sisko to the 50s) is definitely a bad point. It feels like something the writers thought they had to include. "The captain is black? Well we need to do episodes about him dealing with American racism!". I accidentally skipped it during my initial watch of Season 6 and was confused when they called back to it later.

Strangely, the racism isn’t the worst part of that episode in my opinion. It’s the writers making a character “invent” the story of DS9 in the 40s/50s and having every character gush about how amazing it is and how it’s the best story ever created. You can just feel how self-important and narcissistic everyone involved with that episode was.

I remember reading on Memory Alpha that Ira and the other writers/producers wanted to use “Benny” (Sisko’s 40s/50s tortured writer character) in more episodes and even end the series on a soundstage with Benny directing the first Trek episodes in the 60s, making him a black Gene Roddenberry stand-in (and thus all Trek being created by Benny). Thank god that idea was shot down.

The Ferengi stuff bothers me more. Like the episode where they end up on a cold war military base and go on about how human prejudices are stupid and get in the way of profit. Coming from the species that likes to intentionally mispronounce "human" as a slur and feel superior to others through the entire series. The writers' destruction of Ferengi society in S7 comes across like "oops we made the silly space jews too likeable, time to rapidly reform their civilization at the last moment".

Maybe I spend too much time online, but the initial Ferenginar episodes where Quark and Rom kept asking to see their mom naked felt really forced and kind of Freudian. Yes, I know it’s because Ferengi women aren’t supposed to wear clothes and she’s a “degenerate rebel” but the frequent use of the gag and odd camera angles felt really sketchy in a way I’m not sure the writers intended.

Although one could explain this Ferengi hypocrisy about slaves and genocide, but treating females like animals as part of their alien culture. Quark is a proud “old school” Ferengi so him gloating how they never had slaves or genocide is in-character. Think of it like this hypothetical:

*Federation meets herbivorous alien species*
Feds: We are a peaceful society that respects all life.
Herbivore aliens: but you eat meat when you can’t replicate it (and even replicating it means you still like consuming other life forms).
Feds: THAT DOESN’T COUNT! Reeee

A very extra/retarded example but I like to contextualize Quark’s Ferengi hypocrisy in that light. Again, I’m not 100% convinced the writers were that smart and didn’t just want to deconstruct Gene’s Utopianism with clumsy “humans BAD” lines.

 

[Flexo]

Sisko's smuggler-wife suddenly deciding to care about the lack of racism in Vic's casino was also ill thought out.

What? Kassidy never cared. She was the one yelling at Sisko to get over it when he was having a hissy fit that it was unrealistic.

 

[UnKillFill]

Its the Skylar white problem, where the spouses of fan favorite characters are really shit on by the fans for reacting in a realistic manner to pretty sub-par situations.

Meh. I really don't think that's a fair comparison, even if I do in fact think that both Keiko and Skyler were both horrible bitch wives.

At very least, in Skyler's defense, while she was a shitty wife, Walt was an equally shitty husband back to her. Miles on the other hand did nothing wrong.

If you hate the Visitor then you have no soul.

The only real "Visitor" in Ds9 was Nana Visitor. But that was indeed a fantastic episode.

the blaxploitation episodes are dogshit

If you're talking about the Benny Russell episodes, I actually kind of liked the first one... aside from them patting themselves on the back just a little bit too hard for making the main character of their show a black man, but otherwise it was fun enough. Also it gave us one of my favorite Trek memes.

The sequel where Sisko was in a mental asylum was absolute shit though.

@likeacrackado
(sorry I can't seem to directly quote your post) As I've said before on here, the episode where Sisko refuses to help holo (not)Frank Sinatra out should have been a fun one, but it was absolutely ruined by Sisko's random out of nowhere racist chip on his shoulder. Forgetting that Sisko has never actually experienced racism living in the federation, the things he was irrationally pissed about (A fake recreation of Sinatra and Vegas) were pretty much the exact opposite of racist. Sinatra literally refused to play at places that wouldn't also let his black friend (Sammy Davis Jr.) play, and he was such a hot ticket at the time that it basically made Vegas at the time stop banning black people. I know that it was a lot more complicated than that, but it also wasn't as simple as Sisko's bullshit "Everyone was racist back then, so I won't help a fake character in a fake holographic program (who is also demonstrably NOT racist) because it was "actually" racist back when the program took place."
Even though it wasn't. It just makes Sisko look like a racist idiot. Which thankfully was not his usual characterization.

 

[Commissar Fuklaw]

Kasidy calling Sisko a dumb nigger for being retarded about it was not what I was expecting. In Current Year she wouldn't have done it.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

because despite what TNG fans will tell you there were A LOT of pretty meh to bad TNG episodes,

TNG has 7 seasons worth of episodes, out of those like 3 are unwatchable, 2-3 are mid, and 1-2 is kino. TNG is vastly overrated tbh.

Even "good" episodes like measure of a man are remembered more for their concept than the execution.

The only reason TNG is remembered so fondly is because it was the reboot of a beloved series and a lot of people's first time engaging with star trek (i.e. nostalgia) and because somehow voyager and enterprise were even worse which made TNG look good by comparison.

 

[bango skank]

I still like the Benny Russell episodes even if they might be race baiting, and over multiple viewings of the series I’ve come to like Sisko’s irrational racism obsession. Viewed in the context of all we learn about the character, I think it’s an example of the Federation being actually tolerant of individual idiosyncrasies.

Avery Brooks is a legitimate crazy person and that comes through in his performance. Coupled with Sisko’s anachronistic obsession with race and his history and actions throughout the series I think it’s a deliberate portrayal of a character who, while clearly unhinged, is still accepted as effective in their role.

Like the Vulcan supremacist captain from the baseball episode, he’s got some characteristics that might make some people balk but as long as he’s not hurting anybody and getting the job done, Starfleet and the Federation still have a place for him.

 

[Flexo]

but it was absolutely ruined by Sisko's random out of nowhere racist chip on his shoulder. Forgetting that Sisko has never actually experienced racism living in the federation

I wonder if their excuse for it was his experience as Benny.

 

[Calandrino]

TNG has 7 seasons worth of episodes, out of those like 3 are unwatchable, 2-3 are mid, and 1-2 is kino. TNG is vastly overrated tbh.

Even "good" episodes like measure of a man are remembered more for their concept than the execution.

The only reason TNG is remembered so fondly is because it was the reboot of a beloved series and a lot of people's first time engaging with star trek (i.e. nostalgia) and because somehow voyager and enterprise were even worse which made TNG look good by comparison.

so this is "unwatchable", yeah ok buddy whatever you say

 

[obsdj]

so this is "unwatchable", yeah ok buddy whatever you say

I guess this is as good a time as any to come out: Season One TNG is my favorite. It's pure Roddenberry and pure 80s gold. The misplaced idealism, the cheese, the music stings to let us know how we are supposed to feel about every important scene. There are far better episodes interspersed throughout the rest of the series and the rest of later Trek, but I can watch Season One TNG over and over.

 

[Burt Ryan]

Has the True GOAT of Star Trek been mentioned in this thread yet?

 

[naaaaiiiiillllll!!!]

Has the True GOAT of Star Trek been mentioned in this thread yet?

View attachment 5775665

Impressive timespan but he’s only appeared in three Star Trek episodes.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

What? Kassidy never cared. She was the one yelling at Sisko to get over it when he was having a hissy fit that it was unrealistic.

yeah I think they did a decent job of balancing "Sisko has a bug up his ass (probably because space time bullshit mixed with his own personal leanings)" and everybody else being like "seriously, Ben, shut the fuck up and just try to have fun"
and in the end he does totally get on board with Vic, so good triumphs over being a spaz

 

[ProfDongs]

A problem I had with Far Beyond the Stars was that notJake was blatantly a thief and a criminal, and you're supposed to feel bad that he got shot for breaking into cars to steal again. It doesn't help when his excuse earlier in the episode is basically that they'll always be treated like niggers so why not act like one, why not rise above being a stereotypical piece of shit?

 

[Ishtar]

I hope the original advanced humanoid civilization from which all other descend looks exactly like Wakanda

"Actually, the ancient humanoid species 4 billion years ago that is why most species in Trek are humanoids-they were literally super advanced People of Color!!!!"

You just know the temptation to do that is so strong.

A problem I had with Far Beyond the Stars was that notJake was blatantly a thief and a criminal, and you're supposed to feel bad that he got shot for breaking into cars to steal again. It doesn't help when his excuse earlier in the episode is basically that they'll always be treated like niggers so why not act like one, why not rise above being a stereotypical piece of shit?

You're supposed to think he had no dignified options for employment or something. Which fine, black man in the fifties-your options are pretty limited, but he was basically asking to be shot by repeatedly engaging in theft.

 

[Burt Ryan]

You're supposed to think he had no dignified options for employment or something. Which fine, black man in the fifties-your options are pretty limited, but he was basically asking to be shot by repeatedly engaging in theft.

The early concepts for Far Beyond the Stars were something.

Marc Scott Zicree's original pitch focused on Jake Sisko, and rather than actually experiencing a vision, he traveled through time, back to the 1950s, and met a group of struggling science fiction writers. However, at the end of the episode, it was revealed that he never time-traveled at all; it was all part of a trick played on him by an alien who wanted to find out something about Humanity.

In Zicree's outline, Michael Dorn's character was a boxer, not a baseball player. He was romantically involved with a white woman, which was discovered by the racist policemen, who subsequently beat him to death; this killing was replaced with the shooting of Jimmy in the finished episode.

 

[UnKillFill]

I just randomly remembered this song.

Fuck the Ocampa, I wanna go home.