Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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obsdj said:
There was money in TOS. The guy on the space station tried to sell the tribble to Uhura for ten credits.
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TOS was made at the height of the cold war. They were never going to portray the Federation as using any system other than space capitalism.
 
Krokodil Overdose said:
Given Dax's behavior, it's reasonable to assume that Starfleet officers get some kind of per diem- the Federation may not believe in money, but Bajor, Cardassia, and Ferenginar sure as shit do.
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I always assumed that Dax was an outlier in that gambling bit, I just can't see that being a thing that most starfleet officers do.. If for no other reason than most of them are not shown regularly doing it.

I do now suspect that Quark has some arrangement with the Federation where he's able to take up space on DS9 for his bar, use their energy for his replicators, holosuites, and even possibly some things that aren't completely sanctioned by Starfleet (such as as a mug that sings "come to Quark's Quark's is fun") mostly for the profits he makes from alien visitors that ARE required to pay, in some way.
My current thought is that Quark is required to allot a certain number of hours/rooms of his holosuites to Starfleet officers for no charge, perhaps also giving them a certain amount of free food and drinks....
Still, that kind of seems like a shitty deal for Quark, and I don't think DS9 generally disproves that...

If he gives free gambling to Starfleet though, it's got to be in the form of some BossmanJack shit, where he pays certain starfleet officers to play and (mostly) lose. So that other starfleet officers will play and lose.

Tasty Tatty said:
The federation doesn't use money because they don't need it, but Starfleet does have their own money for their missions and encounters with societies that require some sort of money.
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I would counter that they *do* in fact need money. And I think DS9 even proves that as much as is possible without directly saying "The TNG federation is stupid for saying that they don't use money".

Even in a post-scarcity civilization, everybody still seems to, if not *need* something, at very least *want* something that they can't easily get.
By comparison, the Ferengi philosophy of moving through a river of supply and demand makes a lot of sense to me than the "lul humans don't need any money" bullshit TNG tried to pull. That's probably because communism does not, and never has actually worked.
teriyakiburns said:
It became clear over the course of tng and ds9 that the "no money" thing is more an affectation of the core federation and Starfleet, rather than a universal trait of the federation as a whole. Less fortunate worlds, lower social classes, and those less ideologically attached to the federation ideal still use some form of currency.

It's never mentioned on screen, but on the promenade set, there's a latinum dispenser opposite quark's place that was apparently intended for use by federation officers. Federation citizens are often seen using currency, or trading in ways that imply actual economic activity rather than just hobbyists playing at merchant. Reading between the lines, there's an implication that the federation is rich as shit and that Starfleet funds quite lavish lifestyles for its officer corps, and even for its enlisted personnel.
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I think you might be onto something here. But I still refuse to believe that Starfleet (in *good* Trek) would allow/encourage its officers to become "literally bossman jack" paid gamblers, anymore than I believe that that STD era Trek (if it was written well), would allow Tilly to become so fat that she has even odds in a fight with Rancor Beast from a long time ago, and a galaxy far far away.


My only question is what is the exchange rate between bars of gold-pressed latinum, and quatloos?
 
How the fuck did she go from this
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to this
1718356702002.png

It reminds me of that brief arc where Lee Adama became fat while he was chilling on the Pegasus with Dualla during the New Caprica timeskip.

 
I just assume some (((producer))) noticed viewers commenting on Tilly getting fat between S1 and S2 and encouraged her not worry about her weight and to just “live her best life” so they could cynically check another box on their diversity bingo card by having a big bitch on the cast.
 
UnKillShredDur said:
I do now suspect that Quark has some arrangement with the Federation where he's able to take up space on DS9 for his bar, use their energy for his replicators, holosuites, and even possibly some things that aren't completely sanctioned by Starfleet (such as as a mug that sings "come to Quark's Quark's is fun") mostly for the profits he makes from alien visitors that ARE required to pay, in some way.
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Don't forget, DS9 is owned by the Bajorans. The Federation are just borrowing it.

And since we're on the topic of wormholes, even if the Federation doesn't use money internally, it still has to use it when interacting with non-aligned civilisations. The Feds offered the Barzans millions of "federation credits" for access to the Barzan wormhole.
 
Krokodil Overdose said:
Given Dax's behavior, it's reasonable to assume that Starfleet officers get some kind of per diem- the Federation may not believe in money, but Bajor, Cardassia, and Ferenginar sure as shit do.
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I think ST is post-scarcity but not post-money, at least not in the sense of money no longer existing at all. I think the source of the Federation not having money as a meme is from Roddenberry himself, but we've seen money repeatedly in one form or another, and it's also obvious that they associate with societies like the Ferengi that obviously have money, and the purchase of contraband items (like Romulan ale) is a widespread although prohibited practice, and presumably this stuff isn't being sold for free.

You could probably live entirely without money in the Federation if you only engaged in Federation-approved consumption and products. If you wanted to gamble, booze it up, or engage in other vices, it would probably involve money, maybe from a Federation-affiliated group (the Ferengi being the most obvious).

I would imagine anything you can't just get from a replicator would be in this category of limited items, like the Ferengi's gold-pressed latinum (the gold itself is a worthless medium as I presume you could just generate infinite gold from a replicator).
 
AnOminous said:
I think ST is post-scarcity but not post-money, at least not in the sense of money no longer existing at all. I think the source of the Federation not having money as a meme is from Roddenberry himself, but we've seen money repeatedly in one form or another, and it's also obvious that they associate with societies like the Ferengi that obviously have money, and the purchase of contraband items (like Romulan ale) is a widespread although prohibited practice, and presumably this stuff isn't being sold for free.

You could probably live entirely without money in the Federation if you only engaged in Federation-approved consumption and products. If you wanted to gamble, booze it up, or engage in other vices, it would probably involve money, maybe from a Federation-affiliated group (the Ferengi being the most obvious).
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The federation is post scarcity and post money, Its every other society around it that isn't. Thus the Federation is more or less forced to have a currency to exchange for trade with these societies as they see the act of trading as far less duplicitous than the federation showering them in resources in good will.

On the fringes of federation space, such as Bajor, you have to pay to use everything because the post-scarcity economy brought on by advanced technology is simply not there yet.

In truth, almost every federation citizen could live their entire life wanting for nothing if they chose it. Such contraband and prohibited practices can all be made in replicators and played out in holo-suites. However, the entire point of Star Trek is that the explorers spirit, desire for true adventure, and discovery of new knowledge can only be found out in the ever expansive and dangerous unknown of the cosmos. Not in a holo-suite or created in a replicator.
AnOminous said:
I would imagine anything you can't just get from a replicator would be in this category of limited items, like the Ferengi's gold-pressed latinum (the gold itself is a worthless medium as I presume you could just generate infinite gold from a replicator).
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Latinum is a precious material that can't be replicated, the gold itself is more or less a container for the liquid.
 
I know I'm late to the food discussion but I always loved what Kurn said in his intro episode in TNG;

"Yes, I was told about your dining customs. I will eat this replicated, dead, burnt bird meat." -Talking about a turkey dinner.

I loved the early TNG Klingon's, they were so much fun before Kurtzmen turn them into brain dead morons.

Also Kurn after Riker offers him some advice about getting along in the turbolift during the same episode;

" Yes, I am aware I am on a Federation ship, if I wasn't I would have killed you where you stand for offering your advice".

Damn I miss old school Klingons.
 
Sweeter and Savoury said:
I know I'm late to the food discussion but I always loved what Kurn said in his intro episode in TNG;

"Yes, I was told about your dining customs. I will eat this replicated, dead, burnt bird meat." -Talking about a turkey dinner.

I loved the early TNG Klingon's, they were so much fun before Kurtzmen turn them into brain dead morons.

Also Kurn after Riker offers him some advice about getting along in the turbolift during the same episode;

" Yes, I am aware I am on a Federation ship, if I wasn't I would have killed you where you stand for offering your advice".

Damn I miss old school Klingons.
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And Klingons themselves changed a bit between TOS and TNG. No, I'm not talking about the makeup, I mean as characters. TOS Klingons were like Mongolians or Imperial Japanese military where they practice brutal interrogation techniques, but were a professional military that understood tactics, strategy, and general statecraft.* TNG Klingons had a lot more bluster over skill due to the century of peace, which was stagnation for them because their empire was effectively contained by the Federation and thus, they too forgot war as it actually functioned until their war with the Dominion where they stood to lose everything. It's why they have this deep mythology about war and death, but as to the practical skills, not so much.

*Yes, I know they're compared to the Russians, but that's a geopolitical comparison relative to the Federation. As a people, they were more like WWII Japanese.
 
Drag-on Knight 91873 said:
And Klingons themselves changed a bit between TOS and TNG. No, I'm not talking about the makeup, I mean as characters. TOS Klingons were like Mongolians or Imperial Japanese military where they practice brutal interrogation techniques, but were a professional military that understood tactics, strategy, and general statecraft.* TNG Klingons had a lot more bluster over skill due to the century of peace, which was stagnation for them because their empire was effectively contained by the Federation and thus, they too forgot war as it actually functioned until their war with the Dominion where they stood to lose everything. It's why they have this deep mythology about war and death, but as to the practical skills, not so much.

*Yes, I know they're compared to the Russians, but that's a geopolitical comparison relative to the Federation. As a people, they were more like WWII Japanese.
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I always felt that the Romulans were Russians/East Germans in my head canon, and that the Klingons were Arabs.
 
Quark's Bar did make the starfleet pay I remember a few episodes where the staff's bar tabs were discussed. Seem to remember Bashir buying rounds for people in one episode.
 
GenociderSyo said:
Quark's Bar did make the starfleet pay I remember a few episodes where the staff's bar tabs were discussed. Seem to remember Bashir buying rounds for people in one episode.
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How can we forget the infamous moment between Kim and Quark? He outright says "cash or credit."

It's a shame we never got to see Quark and Paris team up. Remember that Enterprise episode where... I think it was Trip and Reed IIRC have to do some like undercover work? (or was it just those two getting up to trouble on Risa?) Anyway, just imagine that episode with Quark and Paris instead is all I'm saying.
 
The Prime algorithm finally realized I'm a Trekkie and suggested a Persis Khambatta film, Phoenix the Warrior. I think I've only seen her in TMP and an episode of MacGyver, so I look forward to seeing her real acting chops. The film is apparently a sci-fi thing with a lot of dune buggies, I guess a spiritual predecessor Star Trek Insurrection. Will report back if it's any good.

(I was surprised to learn she died in 1998, I thought she died like ten years earlier.)
 
GenociderSyo said:
Quark's Bar did make the starfleet pay I remember a few episodes where the staff's bar tabs were discussed. Seem to remember Bashir buying rounds for people in one episode.
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I always figured that, by the TNG era, Starfleet gave cash to crewmen who were going to interact with money-using societies to use as a social lubricant, and for fun. People like Tom and Harry don't really give a fuck about getting scammed, it's just a game to them.
 
Flexo said:
It's a shame we never got to see Quark and Paris team up. Remember that Enterprise episode where... I think it was Trip and Reed IIRC have to do some like undercover work? (or was it just those two getting up to trouble on Risa?) Anyway, just imagine that episode with Quark and Paris instead is all I'm saying.
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That would have been fun.

Though the episode was not meant to be funny this always made me laugh:
 
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