Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Guts Gets Some said:
Even though I do love Trek, I cannot watch TOS or a lot of TNG season 1.
The former being cutting edge for its time, but I just loathe the 60's stench it has. And TNG season 1 is by far the absolute worst of classic Trek I've ever seen; they are just painful to watch, and a lot of them are rehashed TOS episodes and it shows.
But they don't have the novelty of being groundbreaking for the time, or even going along with a 60s aesthetic; they are just boring.
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That's because Roddenberry was still intimitely involved in the first season of TNG. By season two they were starting to figure out that the game had finally passed him by and gently beamed him out of his own series. The writers were now able to write some tension BETWEEN the crew members. It worked fantastically with TNG, was stretched to its limit in DS9 and now we've seen where it's lead to with STD and Picard. Ironically now would be the time for a return to some of that idealistic Roddenberry vision.
 
Miller said:
I wish I could get my hands on the outline that Kurtzman, Goldsman and Beyer pitched to Stewart. All I know is that none of the TNG characters were in it, not even Spiner's characters.


It's "Who watches the Watchers" with a villain and a new twist.
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You are, of course, correct. But I've also seen Insurrection compared, (unfavorably, and rightfully so) to the late Season 7 TNG episode: Journey's End- i.e. the episode where the Federation told Picard to forcibly remove a bunch of "Native Americans" (for lack of a more appropriate term, as the people in question are neither "American" or even "Native" to the planet that they're on.) to leave a planet that they had lived on for a while... (Memory Alpha says they had been there for 20 years, which was honestly less time than I had thought it was..., but that's still shitty.) All because the Space Nazis. Cardassians wanted that planet for themselves, and the Federation were a bunch of pussies at the time.
Oddly enough, Picard originally took the opposite approach in that episode from what he later would in Insurrection. He was totally willing to make those 'Indians' (wait for it), who were also Federation citizens, leave their land, and that wasn't even over a planet that could have potentially saved multiple millions of people in the middle of a terrible war.

Hell, the only reason why the TNG crew didn't ultimately end up removing the "Indians" -LMFAO, and here's the punchline- quite a few people in this episode, including Worf, literally just call them "Indians," that can't be very pc-from their planet, despite Wesley fucking Crusher of all people basically taking up the same role in the episode that Picard did in Insurrection (despite not even having the Gmilf that Picard had in Insurrection to prompt this)... and fucking wow, I started typing this before I had re-watched the episode, and I had also totally forgotten that it was also the same episode where the pedo-traveler finally came back to collect his groomed victim. Disgusting, but still better than Insurrection I guess, because the ending to this episode was Gul Evek ultimately agreeing to a compromise, which involved the Indians giving up their Federation Citizenship (which clearly wasn't helping them anyway)
I'm not gonna lie, I believe that Picard made the wrong choice BOTH times (and if one was going to call that character development, I say that "development" happened in the reverse order. All the more reason I doubt the canonicity of the TNG movies, and STP that followed from it. lol)
Also, this is just a side note, but I can't help but notice the people Picard originally didn't want to help in "Journey's End" were what we would today call "Native American"... and also that the majority of the Ba'ku (i.e. literally everyone that we saw on screen) were all white... :thinking:
 
Miller said:
I wish I could get my hands on the outline that Kurtzman, Goldsman and Beyer pitched to Stewart.
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"Our show's political and on your side, so come on in; it'll give us a ratings boost to use your iconic character, and you can just play yourself and preach your politics in it the whole while (It won't really be about Picard)."

Exact words.
 
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ditto said:
Rewatching Voyager again and every alien they meet so far are amazed by the Voyager and it's technology. They feel incredibly overpowered. A shuttlecraft can easily destroy a Kazon ship.
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I remember when they tried to write around that at the beginning. There were some early conflicts about "can we really share this superior technology with these idiots just to get an advantage for ourselves?", but that got dropped eventually and then turned into a circus when Janeway allied with the Borg. And they initially made a big deal about Voyager only having so many torpedoes, no matter how powerful they were. Of course, with the status quo obsessed writing, that never became an actual issue. And don't get me started on those shuttles...

FULL
SPREAD
 
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Intelligent Calcium said:
I remember when they tried to write around that at the beginning. There were some early conflicts about "can we really share this superior technology with these idiots just to get an advantage for ourselves?", but that got dropped eventually and then turned into a circus when Janeway allied with the Borg. And they initially made a big deal about Voyager only having so many torpedoes, no matter how powerful they were. Of course, with the status quo obsessed writing, that never became an actual issue. And don't get me started on those shuttles...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k
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Great concept to actually do something unique, and they totally wasted it. The setting was virtually moot.
 
TaimuRadiu said:
That's literally what I did during the first episode. I wouldn't watch any of it until like 10 years later. Yes, it took Enterprise to convince teenage me that there were better things to do with life than watch TV.
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I was pretty sour on ST prior to ENT, thanks to the TNG movie abortions. I also didn't like the tonal shift for DS9, though I acknowledge it was still a well written and well acted show. It just didn't have the same spirit of ST to me.

I'd watch ENT over the nutrek stuff though.
 
Intelligent Calcium said:
I remember when they tried to write around that at the beginning. There were some early conflicts about "can we really share this superior technology with these idiots just to get an advantage for ourselves?", but that got dropped eventually and then turned into a circus when Janeway allied with the Borg. And they initially made a big deal about Voyager only having so many torpedoes, no matter how powerful they were. Of course, with the status quo obsessed writing, that never became an actual issue. And don't get me started on those shuttles...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1kFULL
SPREAD
Click to expand...
Just started on season two and I'm surprised at just how empty the Delta quadrant is. The phage aliens and the Kazon (apparently modeled on LA street gangs, not that it matters) and neither are at Federation level of technology. Replicator rations mentioned - and then quickly forgotten. Marquis presented as a threat - oh it's actually a Cardassian in disguise! The most interesting storylines so far are those could be done in any other Trek series.
 
ditto said:
Just started on season two and I'm surprised at just how empty the Delta quadrant is. The phage aliens and the Kazon (apparently modeled on LA street gangs, not that it matters) and neither are at Federation level of technology. Replicator rations mentioned - and then quickly forgotten. Marquis presented as a threat - oh it's actually a Cardassian in disguise! The most interesting storylines so far are those could be done in any other Trek series.
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Kazons go away after like the 2nd or 3rd season or so. There's a throwaway line in later seasons where Seven (Borgtits) says that the Borg considered the Kazon to be unworthy of assimilating.
 
TaimuRadiu said:
Kazons go away after like the 2nd or 3rd season or so. There's a throwaway line in later seasons where Seven (Borgtits) says that the Borg considered the Kazon to be unworthy of assimilating.
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The whole reason Voyager is stuck in the delta quadrant is because Janeway didn't want the Caretaker array to fall into Kazon hands. Then a few episodes later they blew themselves up when given a food replicator. Given the array the Kazon would've probably destroyed their entire fleet they are so dumb. Voyager stranded themselves for no reason.
 
Honest Question:

When I first took a look at Star Trek: Diversity er, I mean Discovery, it looked like a joke, and a bad one at that. Is there anything redeemable about it? The cast looked like diversity hires, the "Klingons" didn't look like Klingons, and it just struck me as a case of get woke go broke.

Is there anything redeemable from this series at all?
 
UnKillFill said:
You are, of course, correct. But I've also seen Insurrection compared, (unfavorably, and rightfully so) to the late Season 7 TNG episode: Journey's End- i.e. the episode where the Federation told Picard to forcibly remove a bunch of "Native Americans" (for lack of a more appropriate term, as the people in question are neither "American" or even "Native" to the planet that they're on.) to leave a planet that they had lived on for a while... (Memory Alpha says they had been there for 20 years, which was honestly less time than I had thought it was..., but that's still shitty.) All because the Space Nazis. Cardassians wanted that planet for themselves, and the Federation were a bunch of pussies at the time.
Oddly enough, Picard originally took the opposite approach in that episode from what he later would in Insurrection. He was totally willing to make those 'Indians' (wait for it), who were also Federation citizens, leave their land, and that wasn't even over a planet that could have potentially saved multiple millions of people in the middle of a terrible war.

Hell, the only reason why the TNG crew didn't ultimately end up removing the "Indians" -LMFAO, and here's the punchline- quite a few people in this episode, including Worf, literally just call them "Indians," that can't be very pc-from their planet, despite Wesley fucking Crusher of all people basically taking up the same role in the episode that Picard did in Insurrection (despite not even having the Gmilf that Picard had in Insurrection to prompt this)... and fucking wow, I started typing this before I had re-watched the episode, and I had also totally forgotten that it was also the same episode where the pedo-traveler finally came back to collect his groomed victim. Disgusting, but still better than Insurrection I guess, because the ending to this episode was Gul Evek ultimately agreeing to a compromise, which involved the Indians giving up their Federation Citizenship (which clearly wasn't helping them anyway)
I'm not gonna lie, I believe that Picard made the wrong choice BOTH times (and if one was going to call that character development, I say that "development" happened in the reverse order. All the more reason I doubt the canonicity of the TNG movies, and STP that followed from it. lol)
Also, this is just a side note, but I can't help but notice the people Picard originally didn't want to help in "Journey's End" were what we would today call "Native American"... and also that the majority of the Ba'ku (i.e. literally everyone that we saw on screen) were all white... :thinking:
Click to expand...
Oh Plinkett had fun with all the points you brought up.
 
Guts Gets Some said:
"Our show's political and on your side, so come on in; it'll give us a ratings boost to use your iconic character, and you can just play yourself and preach your politics in it the whole while (It won't really be about Picard)."

Exact words.
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The only thing you missed was Stewart's response when they said the show won't really be about Picard:

" Good, I hate that fucking character".

Don Juan El Tardo said:
Honest Question:

When I first took a look at Star Trek: Diversity er, I mean Discovery, it looked like a joke, and a bad one at that. Is there anything redeemable about it? The cast looked like diversity hires, the "Klingons" didn't look like Klingons, and it just struck me as a case of get woke go broke.

Is there anything redeemable from this series at all?
Click to expand...

From what I heard Anson Mount as Captain Pike in S2 was the highlight of the series. I never made it that far unfortunately. But other than that, from what I saw, it's a cringy diversity-fest that has no other purpose than to "destroy the past". Mikey Burnham is a terrible, at times laughable Mary Sue.
 
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Starscreams Cape said:
From what I heard Anson Mount as Captain Pike in S2 was the highlight of the series. I never made it that far unfortunately. But other than that, from what I saw, it's a cringy diversity-fest that has no other purpose than to "destroy the past". Mikey Burnham is a terrible, at times laughable Mary Sue.
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Ironically probably because as a "boring" straight white male, he had to put actual work into making his character come alive and be charismatic. (at least from clips I've seen)

Same with Jason Issacs. From things I've seen, Doug Jones and Michelle Yeoh seem to be the only other people putting in effort in their acting & characters.
 
Lackadaisy said:
I love that song unironically.
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I get that. I love the brassy, confident fanfares that dominate the other Trek intro themes, but something about the more understated, wistful feeling of ENT's theme song really hits me right in the feels in a way that I can't fully explain with words. 🌌
 
ditto said:
Rewatching Voyager again and every alien they meet so far are amazed by the Voyager and it's technology. They feel incredibly overpowered. A shuttlecraft can easily destroy a Kazon ship.
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weren't the kazon basically space-nog's that got handed all their tech or stole it? and iirc it was just parts of it, like the replicator. ENT had a similar episode explaining where the holodeck came from.
EDIT: rate me late, should finish the thread before posting...

TaimuRadiu said:
1. That's not how evolution works (see also, The Chase)
2. Sub Rosa is usually considered to be bar none the absolute worst episode of TNG that isn't the clip show at the end of season 2
3. Why was the invaluable android sent out to do something a shuttlecraft could have done with drones from space? Why was it supposed to teach me the values of not being prejudiced when the fact is anyone who came near him got poisoned with the poison rocks he was carrying around?
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I was pulling your leg mate, the synopsis sounds hilarious. but in any case I can accept it as silly filler, especially compared to most of nutrek's shit.
 
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