Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[RomanesEuntDomus]

I dunno, I seem to recall that audience reactions at the time were fairly positive, and this "black legend" of the unwatchable Prequels only eventually settled in as a result of concerted media campaigning (hence RLM getting signal-boosted so widely as the "definitive" take on the PT). I can recall pretty clearly that it was an exciting, positive time to be a young Star Wars fan, with all sorts of interesting new books, comics, animations, games and toys constantly hitting store shelves, and lively discussions about the same on the fan-forums.

Funny how that works. In my class, no one gave a shit about Revenge of the Sith when it came out, cause Attack of the Clones killed their enthusiasm for the trilogy. Only one kid, the biggest SW fan in our entire fucking school, went to see it in theatres and even he acknowledged that the second movie was trash. Most others watched it when the guy borrowed them his VHS.
Maybe that's just my schoolmates though, let's check the box office numbers:
AotC had a >30% dip in theatre revenue compared to Episode 1 and even RotS fell short of the success of the first movie by a massive 15%. Critics pointed out the same flaws back then people have been pointing out ever since: bad pacing, bad writing, bad acting, bad greenscreens, bad characters and so on. People got roped in by the name in the first movie, saw that it had little to no substance and then AotC was a meandering, boring mess with atrocious dialogue and CGI clusterfuck fightscenes, that lead to bad word of mouth and a substantial dip in audience numbers. The third movie tried to course correct somewhat, but it was too little too late and the enthusiasm of which you speak of is nowhere to be found.

The movies aren't the worst ever, but they certainly weren't as warmly received as you choose to believe.

You get over it.

Classic.



I really don't care whether you enjoy a lackluster movie series or not, it's no skin off my back, but your arguments are lazy and flimsy and pointing that out gets grade A salt.
I don't intend to change your mind, your opinion is far too entrenched within your own buttcheeks for that to happen. The prequels sucked. You can still enjoy them. So what.

 

[BScCollateral]

Roddenberry must have really loved that name (to be fair, it is a pretty cool name for a protagonist), because he used it again in the 1974 TV movie Planet Earth, which premiered just a year after Genesis II.

Planet Earth was a second shot at the basic idea behind Genesis II. Genesis III, if you will.
I'm not casting shade at him for that; it's perfectly fine to tweak your own work.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

There are some other ships I really like (like the Akira or the Ambassador one you get for free) but they're all so low tier it's not worth using them for long as they lack weapon and station slots.
The cheeky fucks actually released a new version of the Ambassador a while ago (Neranda class if I remember correctly) but that also costs real money.

They're worse than Nu-Bungie. where at least the base gameplay is somewhat enjoyable and changes happen at all. STO is literally "watch paint dry in space simulator" 2010, especially with the ground combat, and hasnt done any drastic gameplay improvements during the entirety of its runtime so far.

You're showing your age, then.

The height of Star Wars was the Special Editions hitting theaters. Graphic novels that slot perfectly between the films, which in turn spawned an N64 game. LucasArts had a meteroic rise with Dark Forces and TIE Fighter. The EU was still chugging along, with plenty of good material--if George Lucas had two brain cells to rub together, and hadn't hogged residuals and credit like the autist he is.

Even Moffat had the good sense to plunder the New Adventure and Eighth Doctor novels, FFS.

It always seemed like things would never stop looking up during that golden age.
Plus there were good ST games back then as well and no faggots in sight until the early 2010s.

They really dont make them like they used to on purpose at this point and im certain anything good these days is locked up akin to some dark illuminati secret behind exclusive communities somewhere. Meanwhile the plebs get garbage like STO and Hentai WW2 and a return to fucking 1970s era Kenner junk from the cool shit in the 2000's ever since the 2010s.

I was speaking about battles specifically though, and about their technical and visual accuracy. So yes I did leave those out. The problem with this point of view is that both of us see those moments for what they are, the great writing, the excellent score, the way the scenes are timed and shot, the performances from the actors, etc. But the dumbing down takes its toll as a newcomer to the franchise is probably just going to see "cool battle, this is what they want more of right?" and then its suddenly a lot easier to figure out why Discovery is all flashy eyecandy.

Nobody (neither me or, I think, RLM) is denying the good writing Deep Space Nine had. Its that approach of turning Star Trek into a flashy space opera with swarms of fighters and turrets spewing out projectiles every which way and all of the other crazy stuff we saw on the screen that fundamentally clashes with TOS and TNG's approaches to space combat.

It was something different. And Actually different and not just pushing space niggers like Discovery with your average ghetto hoe MC whose character belongs on a IP2 livestream instead of a Star trek show.

It showcased true diversity and tackled some very difficult topics. Starfleet banning Genetically modified organisms would mean anyone who took the vaccine is now banned from service as an officer. Jokes aside, was interesting to see dr bashir and his responses to that and the whole actual Section 31 secrecy thats hard to prove they even exist because they're sneaky future black ops bastards.

Not the space CIA that is a publically known organization that also undertakes distabilizing nations and organizing future wars. Which STD clearly has the same Nu-SW treatment around.

 

[jspit2.0]

I was speaking about battles specifically though, and about their technical and visual accuracy. So yes I did leave those out. The problem with this point of view is that both of us see those moments for what they are, the great writing, the excellent score, the way the scenes are timed and shot, the performances from the actors, etc. But the dumbing down takes its toll as a newcomer to the franchise is probably just going to see "cool battle, this is what they want more of right?" and then its suddenly a lot easier to figure out why Discovery is all flashy eyecandy.

Nobody (neither me or, I think, RLM) is denying the good writing Deep Space Nine had. Its that approach of turning Star Trek into a flashy space opera with swarms of fighters and turrets spewing out projectiles every which way and all of the other crazy stuff we saw on the screen that fundamentally clashes with TOS and TNG's approaches to space combat.

good for you. DS9 is awesome!

To be fair TOS was filmed in the 60s and TNG tried in later seasons.

I can't say that that really bothers me. Trek has always been something of a compromise between a speculative idea of what passed at the time for semi-plausible future technologies and more romantic influences like "wagon-trains to the stars" or WWII submarine combat.


You have my pity.


I dunno, I seem to recall that audience reactions at the time were fairly positive, and this "black legend" of the unwatchable Prequels only eventually settled in as a result of concerted media campaigning (hence RLM getting signal-boosted so widely as the "definitive" take on the PT). I can recall pretty clearly that it was an exciting, positive time to be a young Star Wars fan, with all sorts of interesting new books, comics, animations, games and toys constantly hitting store shelves, and lively discussions about the same on the fan-forums.


You get over it. It's not the end of the world if I disagree with you on this issue, and you're certainly not going to change my mind by heckling me.

What does Star Wars have to do with Star Trek?

 

[L50LasPak]

It was something different. And Actually different and not just pushing space niggers like Discovery with your average ghetto hoe MC whose character belongs on a IP2 livestream instead of a Star trek show.

It showcased true diversity and tackled some very difficult topics. Starfleet banning Genetically modified organisms would mean anyone who took the vaccine is now banned from service as an officer. Jokes aside, was interesting to see dr bashir and his responses to that and the whole actual Section 31 secrecy thats hard to prove they even exist because theyre sneaky future black ops bastards. Not the space CIA.

I think you guys are getting confused at what my point is. I'm not one of those fans who's saying DS9 wasn't true Star Trek because muh Federation values/its too grimdark. I'm saying the space battles, and specifically the space battles do not make sense, and do not fit with established Trek space battles, and that its a fundamental flaw of the series. Not a flaw that destroys the whole thing or makes DS9 not worth watching, but a flaw none the less and one I think people are very quick to overlook.

Can you enjoy the series even with that flaw? Well, duh. Its not a dealbreaker. But at the same time pretending it doesn't exist just makes DS9 fans look fanboyish and incapable accepting criticism. And I do personally think the flashy DS9 battles led somewhat to the flashiness of nuTrek battles as well.

My main sticking point is the ending. A monsoon appears for no reason. And you can tell that Lynch doesn't really 'get' the material, because the sandworms probably drowned.

This is just an aside because I see this arguement come up a lot but like, the Sand Worms are absolutely massive creatures. Tremendously huge. And in the scene where the water of life is shown being made we see that the sand trout still survives long enough to struggle heavily for a few minutes even when submerged completely in water. It doesn't dissolve into goop, it just drowns.

I think even if a sandworm was stuck in an outright hurricane there still probably wouldn't be enough water flying around in the air to actually drown it. It would no doubt be highly unpleasant for them, but highly unlikely that it would be fatal. The scene is dopey and out of place but I don't buy that it would somehow instantly kill all of the sandworms.

 

[Captain Syrup]

The scene is dopey and out of place but I don't buy that it would somehow instantly kill all of the sandworms.

I gather from the books that the worms are indestructible. But the casual audience was probably at sea. It's not made clear what their capabilities are.

 

[5t3n0g0ph3r]

@Cyril Sneer Quit shitting up this thread.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

I think you guys are getting confused at what my point is. I'm not one of those fans who's saying DS9 wasn't true Star Trek because muh Federation values/its too grimdark. I'm saying the space battles, and specifically the space battles do not make sense, and do not fit with established Trek space battles, and that its a fundamental flaw of the series. Not a flaw that destroys the whole thing or makes DS9 not worth watching, a but flaw none the less and one I think people are very quick to overlook.

Can you enjoy the series even with that flaw? Well, duh. Its not a dealbreaker. But at the same time pretending it doesn't exist just makes DS9 fans look fanboyish and incapable accepting criticism. And I do personally think the flashy DS9 battles led somewhat to the flashiness of nuTrek battles as well.


This is just an aside because I see this arguement come up a lot but like, the Sand Worms are absolutely massive creatures. Tremendously huge. And in the scene where the water of life is shown being made we see that the sand trout still survives long enough to struggle heavily for a few minutes even when submerged completely in water. It doesn't dissolve into goop, it just drowns.

I think even if a sandworm was stuck in an outright hurricane there still probably wouldn't be enough water flying around in the air to actually drown it. It would no doubt be highly unpleasant for them, but highly unlikely that it would be fatal. The scene is dopey and out of place but I don't buy that it would somehow instantly kill all of the sandworms.

I get what you mean by that. Half of those ships and even the Miranda class would normally take at least several direct consecutive hits to lower a shield let alone create a decompressive explosion bigger than the genesis device going off every space battle.

As well as a jem hadar fighter ramming a galaxy class with its shields up would just bounce off the shield or blow itself up colliding with it. Not instantly cause a warp core breach and take out 1/3rd of the ship like in several TNGedits.

DS9's space battles aren't the same kind of flashy crap that JJ and his queer steers are into or think of when they think "sci fi"
At no point did the federation use fucking klingon styled distruptors or turbolasers as a primary weapon. They didnt even do a single phaser effect in Jar Jars films but went back to them for STD and STP from the clips I saw. Aint got time to watch that shit. he even admitted to always thinking ST and SW were "beaneath him" and "he was never a fan anyway so lol."

 

[Captain Syrup]

Not instantly cause a warp core breach and take out 1/3rd of the ship like in several TNGedits.

The Enterprise-D is hilariously fragile.

TNG loves to blow up the ship for cheap thrills.

 

[L50LasPak]

DS9's space battles aren't the same kind of flashy crap that JJ and his queer steers are into or think of when they think "sci fi"
At no point did the federation use fucking klingon styled distruptors or turbolasers as a primary weapon. They didnt even do a single phaser effect in Jar Jars films but went back to them for STD and STP from the clips I saw. Aint got time to watch that shit. he even admitted to always thinking ST and SW were "beaneath him" and "he was never a fan anyway so lol."

Yeah I don't mean to say that the DS9 space battles are anywhere near as bad as the ones in nuTrek, I just feel they were the start of a downward slope that either led us to or at least allowed the kinds of battles we got in nuTrek. There's a significant argument to be made that something like that would have happened anyway though.

I find DS9's overwrought space battles to take away from the series even though I still consider myself a DS9 fan. I actually put it above TNG in my hierarchy. The series stands too much on the strength of its characters and storylines to let the space battles ruin my opinion of it like that.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

The Enterprise-D was laughably fragile. TNG loves to blow up the ship for cheap thrills.

Meanwhile the Enterprise-C tanks 20 ships for 20 minutes of screen time like a champ and the Enterprise-B "tripped and cut its leg open" on its maiden voyage around the block and was responsible for the death of admiral kirk.

The only respectable ones were the A refit and the E.

Don't count the F in STO because you never fucking see the ship nor any story around it unless you google that shit which if your game is worth anything even after rank 40, you should never have to google important lore like the current flagship of the Federation out of anything but curiosity.

Yeah I don't mean to say that the DS9 space battles are anywhere near as bad as the ones in nuTrek, I just feel they were the start of a downward slope that either led us to or at least allowed the kinds of battles we got in nuTrek. There's a significant argument to be made that something like that would have happened anyway though.

I find DS9's overwrought space battles to take away from the series even though I still consider myself a DS9 fan. I actually put it above TNG in my hierarchy. The series stands too much on the strength of its characters and storylines to let the space battles ruin my opinion of it like that.

I think the space battles were so exaggerated to drive home the point of "sending men and women to die and not being happy about it" that the head of Starfleet at the time mentioned. Cant remember his name as he was more of a side character to the main plot, but I also agree. The faggotry agenda theyve pushed hardcore over the last decade proves it. If it wasnt Jar Jar, it wouldve been Troon flashclone #43535 who would simply cease to exist two years later anyway and erasing any semblance of the greatness of western culture over the last 100 years at least and replacing it with garbage under the same name. So when new people are curious, they think of that garbage and not what came before.

 

[Captain Marvelous]

Hopefully this joke hasn't already been made yet.

 

[Captain Syrup]

I actually put it above TNG in my hierarchy.

To be fair, they're different shows. TNG is about keeping the peace.

It's a novel experience to re-watch the show: A Romulan defector kills himself and is found with a letter in his hand, while Picard stands vigil and hopes to one day deliver it. Those sentiments are completely gone from today's discourse.

DS9 is explicitly about war. But compared to Nu Trek, it's positively utopian: whether it's Sisko negotiating with Jem'Hadar, or Weyoun explaining his humble beginnings, or that Cardassian chick who wants to hump O'Brien's brains out; these are not 'bad guys' whom we can blindly hate.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

DS9's space battles aren't the same kind of flashy crap that JJ and his queer steers are into or think of when they think "sci fi"
At no point did the federation use fucking klingon styled distruptors or turbolasers as a primary weapon. They didnt even do a single phaser effect in Jar Jars films but went back to them for STD and STP from the clips I saw. Aint got time to watch that shit. he even admitted to always thinking ST and SW were "beaneath him" and "he was never a fan anyway so lol."

No wonder JJ managed to offend bot ST and SW fans at the same time.

To be fair, they're different shows. TNG is about keeping the peace.

TNG was more the story of a soldier-diplomat trying to keep the peace between factions, while DS9 was more about war.

DS9 is explicitly about war. But compared to Nu Trek, it's positively utopian.

Whether it's Sisko negotiating with Jem'Hadar, or Weyoun explaining his humble beginnings, or that Cardassian chick who wants to hump O'Brien's brains out; these are not 'bad guys' whom we can blindly hate.

That's because having nuanced bad guys that you can sympathize with even as you're fighting them is no longer kosher in the eyes of the modern media illiterati. Nowadays, you must have blind hatred towards Orange Man, the alt-right, or whatever boogeyman people can cook up in their imaginations. Every bad guy has to be some parody of Orange Man or the right-wing, and they cannot and must not be portrayed as sympathetic.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

No wonder JJ managed to offend bot ST and SW fans at the same time.


TNG was more the story of a soldier-diplomat trying to keep the peace between factions, while DS9 was more about war.


That's because having nuanced bad guys that you can sympathize with even as you're fighting them is no longer kosher in the eyes of the modern media illiterati. Nowadays, you must have blind hatred towards Orange Man, the alt-right, or whatever boogeyman people can cook up in their imaginations. Every bad guy has to be some parody of Orange Man or the right-wing, and they cannot and must not be portrayed as sympathetic.

Would make a good ST episode tbh hinting at these same types of insane faggots, sockpuppets, cargo cultists, and useful idiots and the ones who lead them just like when TNG tackled the controversial topic of terrorism where "sometimes strength may be useless in the face of terror" and ending the episode without a solution other than one day someone being brave enough to drop the gun and their target not shooting them because of indoctrinated hatred and manufactured tragedies that benefit no one but arms dealers and military contractors, when they refused to shoot the kid who willingly dropped his weapon at the end and had nothing to do with the terrorists that killed her parents. (even though IRL that wouldnt happen and someone would get shot.)

And ST then never touched that subject again because those situations still haven't been resolved IRL over 20 years later as its a fucking landmine topic created by the powers at be as a perpetual money generator for them and excuse to try out their new toys without any real resistance or consequences at home.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Would make a good ST episode tbh hinting at these same types of insane faggots, sockpuppets, cargo cultists, and useful idiots and the ones who lead them just like when TNG tackled the controversial topic of terrorism where "sometimes strength may be useless in the face of terror" and ending the episode without a solution other than one day someone being brave enough to drop the gun and their target not shooting them because of indoctrinated hatred and manufactured tragedies that benefit no one but arms dealers and military contractors, when they refused to shoot the kid who willingly dropped his weapon at the end and had nothing to do with the terrorists that killed her parents. (even though IRL that wouldnt happen and someone would get shot.)

And ST then never touched that subject again because those situations still haven't been resolved IRL over 20 years later as its a fucking landmine topic created by the powers at be as a perpetual money generator for them and excuse to try out their new toys without any real resistance or consequences at home.

Basically, yes. That, and the hatred the modern media has for Orange Man will not go away anytime soon. So expect more "HOO-RAH" moments of them fighting a new threat that's evil because it stands for Orange Man and all his friends. These leftists will unwittingly go so far to the right that they will make George Bush II look like a peace-loving hippie.

 

[Captain Syrup]

And ST then never touched that subject again because those situations still haven't been resolved IRL over 20 years later as its a fucking landmine topic

Probably doesn't help that so many Hollywood moguls are Jewish and donate directly to the IDF. They have a very jaundiced view of U.S.-Arab relations.

And a character like TNG's Picard is certainly not in Israel's interest.

leftists will unwittingly go so far to the right that they will make George Bush II look like a peace-loving hippie.

"You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? Get any sleep? Lol!"

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

The laundering of Bush is shameful. He was as obnoxious as Trump, if not worse. "You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? Get any sleep? Lol!"

(He actually said that.)

If your country has to tell people it "ISreal" its probably not since it did not exist until after 1945 and also biblical scripture was altered from the promised land to specifically naming Israel instead of Zion as the "holy land"

Its also the most boomer name you could possibly name a country besides "Iworkistan"

Probably doesn't help that so many Hollywood moguls are Jewish and donate directly to the IDF. They have a very jaundiced view of U.S.-Arab relations.

And a character like TNG's Picard is certainly not in Israel's interest.

Also doesnt help he did a damn good job of showing people how to verbally kick their ass with their bullshit they try to force on everyone.
They had some pretty fucked up Isreali parodies of star trek TNG specifically over there that are actually on youtube still. Yeah they did mention "da goyim" and a lot of very not nice things happening to the goyim and making light of it a lot just like the meme tinfoil hats love to spout off about.

Basically, yes. That, and the hatred the modern media has for Orange Man will not go away anytime soon. So expect more "HOO-RAH" moments of them fighting a new threat that's evil because it stands for Orange Man and all his friends. These leftists will unwittingly go so far to the right that they will make George Bush II look like a peace-loving hippie.

Would be interesting for a media to go into the details and lengths of the social engineering that exploited the lack of solidarity and collective unity that is the fundamental flaw of western individualism. Where no one stands up for anyone and no good deed goes unpunished.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The laundering of Bush is shameful. He was as obnoxious as Trump, if not worse. "You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? Get any sleep? Lol!"

(He actually said that.)

Considering they hate Trump more, they're going to break bread with all sorts of Neocon Republicans just to make them an ally against Trump. Like how they're not really opposed to Dick Cheney's pro-war stance anymore.

Would be interesting for a media to go into the details and lengths of the social engineering that exploited the lack of solidarity and collective unity that is the fundamental flaw of western individualism. Where no one stands up for anyone and no good deed goes unpunished.

That's actually something I've noticed. Pre-democracy western nations like kingdoms and empires had a sense of solidarity and collective unity that modern democracies lacked. Sure, it was based around a king/church/bunch of nobles, but it was still there, and it didn't fail as bad as Communism did.

 

[Antarctic Hellbeast]

Considering they hate Trump more, they're going to break bread with all sorts of Neocon Republicans just to make them an ally against Trump. Like how they're not really opposed to Dick Cheney's pro-war stance anymore.


That's actually something I've noticed. Pre-democracy western nations like kingdoms and empires had a sense of solidarity and collective unity that modern democracies lacked. Sure, it was based around a king/church/bunch of nobles, but it was still there, and it didn't fail as bad as Communism did.

The kingdoms and empires never truly failed, simply evolved over time as technology and quality of life improved. We are experiencing the late stages of a civilization in decline.

Also don't forget the WW3 and Genetics wars arcs that happened before the first warp drive was created and tested to get the Vulcan's attention at least 100 years before the steps leading to the founding of the federation. It took several hells of wakeup calls for Earth to start to remotely get its shit together.

"remember when you used to control your soldiers with drugs?"-Q

very relevant today with the likes of IP2 becoming more and more common.