Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Intelligent Calcium]

What other sci-fi shows from the 90's/early 2000's would you recommend?
Whenever there is mention of DS9, Babylon 5 usually follows - unfortunately I know next to nothing about this series and never watched it. I remember Space: Above and Beyond from that time, which ended in such a trollish way I am mad about this 25 years later. What other series are worth seeing for TNG/DS9 enthusiast?

Babylon 5 takes a some time to get started, because all the elements build on each other, but if you have a strong "mental filter" (the ability to watch a TV show and see what's envisioned, not just what's on screen, which a lot of Star Trek also requires) it's great. Not perfect, some character never really got going for me, but well worth a watch. In case you played and enjoyed Mass Effect, they borrowed more from Babylon 5 than anything else.

A big hurdle in getting people interested in the show is that you can't really post any cool clips. Every cool scene is payoff for something that took other episodes to establish, so watching them without context is pretty moot, and spoils the storyline. But if you want an appetizer and don't mind spoilers, this is where the space politics are going in season 2. So don't worry about B5 treading water like other shows of its time.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

It's for the best - I think additional Farscape seasons would likely have sucked.

Most of the drama/excitement in seasons 1 and 2 of that show came from personal conflict among the protagonist crew, consisting of a bunch of fugitives with very different backgrounds and goals who only banded together for survival but distrusted each other and were ready to stab each other in the back.
(Kinda the opposite of Star Trek, which as has been discussed in this thread, kept intra-crew conflict to a minimum at Roddenberry's behest. But it worked for Farscape.)

Anyway, after a few seasons of "character development", the Farscape crew had become inseparable best buddies (or significant others) for life, and the show had to switch over to getting all its drama from external threats faced by the crew... And somehow that didn't work out as well with the same characters.

I loved Farscape, but they faced a conundrum many shows have faced. Once two romantic interests get together much of the dramatic story tension is gone. Jim and Pam getting married was essentially the end of "The Office". My wife used to watch this show called "The Nanny", same thing there. These strong relationships are what makes shows like Farscape great, but they also set up a Catch-22. Give fans "what they want" (ie John and Aeryn together) and the clock starts ticking on the end.

 

[Captain Syrup]

Anyway, after a few seasons of "character development", the Farscape crew had become inseparable best buddies (or significant others) for life

Throwing a baby into the mix was a mistake. Like Gillian Anderson once said, “'Well, where’s the baby and why isn't she home with him?' And if she is with the baby the fans are going, 'We want her out in the field. We don’t want her home with the baby.'"

Babylon 5 takes a some time to get started

So what? Compare it to the first seasons of TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. Or even Farscape.

The only real blip is how it gets you invested in Sinclair, only to recast him in Season Two. But the actor wasn't up to the task, physically or mentally.

My wife used to watch this show called "The Nanny"

God help me: She's Joe Pesci with titties, and I still simp for Fran.

 

[BScCollateral]

A big hurdle in getting people interested in the show is that you can't really post any cool clips.

I remember enjoying Babylon 5 when it started off, but I didn't fall in love with it until an episode the mustache-twirling evil lizard guy suddenly revealed

1) Of course he will set up a rescue mission to save someone, even if he doesn't like them
2) He has a childlike wonder and amazement over the mysteries of the universe.

 

[Miller]

I never really got into the new BSG and it seems all over the place by what I read above...
I knew it was kinda weird with religious overtones here and there, but it seems they also tried to be political and turned the show into quite a mess.

Watch the show, it's pretty good. It didn't crash like The Expanse.

B5 was definitely a good show. The special effects unfortunately are painfully dated, but the characters and story easily compensate for it.

Without the CGI in B5, we wouldn't have all these special effect companies today. One of the guys who worked on the show (and DS9, VOY and BSG) still has the original files.

 

[Captain Syrup]

It didn't crash like The Expanse.

That's debatable.

2) He has a childlike wonder and amazement over the mysteries of the universe.

This scene is quintessential B5 in some ways. G'kar has a charming side to him, just as Londo has an ugly side. The universe is unmapped, unknowable. Then you have humans and aliens putting aside their differences for a common end.

 

[Intelligent Calcium]

So what? Compare it to the first seasons of TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT. Or even Farscape. (Farscape's premiere is one of the worst pilots I've ever seen.)

The only real blip is how it gets you invested in Sinclair, only to recast him in Season Two. But the actor wasn't up to the task, mentally or physically.

It wasn't supposed to be a criticism of the show, just something someone planning on watching it should know going in. Though I guess not really necessary in a Star Trek thread.

 

[horni]

A big hurdle in getting people interested in the show is that you can't really post any cool clips. Every cool scene is payoff for something that took other episodes to establish, so watching them without context is pretty moot, and spoils the storyline. But if you want an appetizer and don't mind spoilers, this is where the space politics are going in season 2. So don't worry about B5 treading water like other shows of its time.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=t2_tNh5q-4M

I have no idea who these characters are and what is the hierarchy between the factions, but I got invested in less than 5 minutes. I'm on season 4 of DS9 now (I'm watching two episodes every week) and right after I'm finished (re)watching I'm starting with Babylon 5. I like space politics, season-long build-ups, character development and meaningful conversations where actors can act and have something substantial to say... okay, that's enough nu-Trek bashing from me.

 

[Captain Syrup]

meaningful conversations where actors can act and have something substantial to say... okay, that's enough nu-Trek bashing from me.

The sci-fi equivalent of Tai Lopez: they need to maintain the illusion to keep their business going.

 

[Michael Wade]

The problem with B5 for me is I think I got way too attached to Michael O'Hare's performance as sinclair in season 1.
I found it absolutely riveting and anybody who say's season 1 is bad can pound sand.

There was this wonderful mix of kindness and diplomacy but also a complete willingness to smackdown on anybody that tried fucking with the station.

You'd get moving speeches like this:

and then he'd start getting into fist fights every other episode beating some ass. (Seriously im surprised there isn't a compilation of his punches somewhere.)

I like Sheridan and I love Bruce Boxleitner but it just... was such a crying shame what happened to O'Hare. I wont detail it here, but his life was a real tragedy. It is a credit to Straczynski that he put as much effort as he did in remembering the character and actors impact on that universe.



To bring the thread back on topic: are there anymore details on Discovery S4? and how did S3 end anyway? Im curious how that trashfire went.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

Without the CGI in B5, we wouldn't have all these special effect companies today. One of the guys who worked on the show (and DS9, VOY and BSG) still has the original files.

Yes, quite true. Before CGI could surpass traditional methods with physical models and bluescreen, it had to dip below it. Shows like B5 had to take those slings and arrows for the sake of progress.

But let me reiterate, I love B5 - it's a grand show.

 

[Captain Syrup]

The problem with B5 for me is I think I got way too attached to Michael O'Hare's performance as sinclair in season 1.

You're not alone. I like Bruce a lot more than I thought I would. But you can't beat Sinclair's backstory at the line.

The production problems put VOY to shame. They had Tamlyn Tomita in the palm of their hand, and the network drove her away.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Babylon 5 takes a some time to get started, because all the elements build on each other, but if you have a strong "mental filter" (the ability to watch a TV show and see what's envisioned, not just what's on screen, which a lot of Star Trek also requires) it's great. Not perfect, some character never really got going for me, but well worth a watch. In case you played and enjoyed Mass Effect, they borrowed more from Babylon 5 than anything else.

A big hurdle in getting people interested in the show is that you can't really post any cool clips. Every cool scene is payoff for something that took other episodes to establish, so watching them without context is pretty moot, and spoils the storyline. But if you want an appetizer and don't mind spoilers, this is where the space politics are going in season 2. So don't worry about B5 treading water like other shows of its time.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=t2_tNh5q-4M

Yeah, it's hard to go into detail what makes Babylon 5 so great, since most stuff has a lot of build-up and a lot of cool moments would need to be explained, which would spoil the fun.
Just to throw out a seemingly random quote:
"And I will wave... just like this."

It's one of the best moments ever put to film, and if you have seen the show, you will agree, I am sure. But to anyone else, explaing why that quote is so amazing, satisfying and glorious really takes away from the experience of watching the show.

And that short clip also highlights the amazing costume and mask work. Mollari's Space-Austo-Hungarian uniform just looks baller.

 

[Intelligent Calcium]

"And I will wave... just like this."

Some favors just come at too high a price.

 

[Captain Syrup]

And that short clip also highlights the amazing costume and mask work.

While we're jerking each other off, let me just say the set design is underrated.

Star Trek sets are very spartan. On B5, there's always something interesting to look at. The Blade Runner milieu of the Zocalo, the opulence of Londo's suite, the mazelike slums, the bars and restaurants that change every week. They filmed this thing in a disused hot tub factory/recycling plant. You can't tell from the finished product.

Granted, they went too far in some places. The establishing shot of Green Sector makes my head spin. It's hard to believe EarthGov would fork out the money to build this thing five times.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

LOL the most interested I've been in the Star Trek thread - when we're swerving into B5 and Farscape territory. That shows the shabby state of Trek right now.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

The current discussion just shows us how spoiled we were in the past, to have so many good Sci-fi shows and space operas.
What do we have nowadays?
I watched The Expanse to the end of the 3rd season and I loved it. Dunno how it fared after that, but the first three are a great story and can be enjoyed with a satisfying conclusion imho.
I watched a bit of Dark Matter, the show wasn't for me, I guess... Star Trek has been in a downward spiral. Maybe Mandalorian could be called a decent Sci-Fi show, but I sure as fuck will never know, cause I refuse to waste my time on anything made by Disney after what they did with SW and how they treated the fans. So what does that leave us with?

 

[Captain Syrup]

LOL the most interested I've been in the Star Trek thread - when we're swerving into B5 and Farscape territory.

Trek has been on a downward trajectory for a long time. Gene's legacy is rubble and they continue to bomb it every day.

The lesson is that when things are hot, Hollywood can do no wrong. Unfortunately, when things turn bad, the studio can do nothing right. Loss of revenue leads to further interference from investors and executives.

So what does that leave us with?

Fanservice. There's enough existing IPs to simply retread old ground over and over again. As the wise person said, having killed the author, we've now killed the audience.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

LOL the most interested I've been in the Star Trek thread - when we're swerving into B5 and Farscape territory. That shows the shabby state of Trek right now.

The shows that aren't getting remakes... thankfully.

 

[Trig.Point]

The problem with B5 for me is I think I got way too attached to Michael O'Hare's performance as sinclair in season 1.
I found it absolutely riveting and anybody who say's season 1 is bad can pound sand.

There was this wonderful mix of kindness and diplomacy but also a complete willingness to smackdown on anybody that tried fucking with the station.

You'd get moving speeches like this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TA2LjpfTcdg
and then he'd start getting into fist fights every other episode beating some ass. (Seriously im surprised there isn't a compilation of his punches somewhere.)

I like Sheridan and I love Bruce Boxleitner but it just... was such a crying shame what happened to O'Hare. I wont detail it here, but his life was a real tragedy. It is a credit to Straczynski that he put as much effort as he did in remembering the character and actors impact on that universe.



To bring the thread back on topic: are there anymore details on Discovery S4? and how did S3 end anyway? Im curious how that trashfire went.

I've read that O'Hare was in a bad way when they brought him back in a guest role in season 3, but that Straczynski insisted, and O'Hare managed to power though long enough to tie up the characters story arc.

Discovery is unwatchable, Babylon 5 has sets made out of chipboard and special effects that would be laughable if the story and characters weren't so gripping.