Star Wars Expanded Universe Fans/Cultists - I HOPE YOU LIKE STAR WARS AUTISM

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The Vong sent a third rate fleet with a fourth rate commander against the Empire because they thought it was too small and weak to send the first or even second team. This was after Ebaq 9 when the Vong attacked a bunch of smaller powers like the Yevetha and Ssi-Ruuk because Shimrra was chimping out. The Vong commander is explicitly portrayed as a stupid brute who can barely get his bioengineered shoes to tie themselves

And they didn't send in a better fleet with a better commander afterwards? Again, the story ends with the Vong losing to that pathetic remnant of the Empire and whatever parts of the New Republic that didn't get vongformed or massacred. No great weapons tech revolution, no Jedi using Battle Meditation to turn the tide. Even the magical dovin basals can get fucked by mass-firing low-power shots which would exhaust them, and we've seen all the way back in ANH where the fighting doctrine for starfighters and turbolasers was to spam DAKKA until the target is destroyed.

Meaning that from the start, the NR had the tech to beat them. The Empire managed to beat their tech, and if those losers could beat them, then the NR, which was stronger and had more unconventional leaders that could handle Vong commanders thinking outside the box, would've had no problems.

This shows that if the New Republic fought at 100% capacity from the start, which is what they would've logically done, the war would've been cut short. The Vong wouldn't get to Coruscant or the core worlds; they'd just get stopped at the Mid-Rim at most and then get pushed back. The story relied on the New Republic that the heroes fought so hard to establish being uncharacteristically dumb as bricks and turning their backs on their Jedi protectors who risked so much to help create and protect the New Republic in the first place. Which, from a historical/nation-building perspective, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Meanwhile, the Jedi legit saved the galaxy from Palpatine, Thrawn, and other Imperial threats multiple times. It is through their actions that the New Republic even had a snowball's chance in hell of existing. If anything, there should be a cult of personality around the Jedi, whether the Jedi and New Republic wanted there to be one or not. They should react to the Jedi the way the French react to Joan of Arc; or the way the English back in the Middle Ages reacted to Alfred the Great and Richard the Lionheart. And even with the aliens that eventually sided with Borsk, they should adore the Jedi because the Jedi defeated a humanocentric Empire that enslaved and brutalized aliens.

We are talking about politicians here. They don’t want the Jedi to be a more active force because it intrudes on their schemes.

And such rejection of heroes in the aftermath of a conflict has happened before. After the Revolutionary War, American veterans started up an veterans group called the Society of Cincinnatus. Conspiracies about the group attempting to manipulate the governments of the nascent United States led to veterans resigning from government positions due to public pressure. So it’s not out of the question for public opinion to quickly change.

Just remind the public that the Jedi have powers just like Darth Vader or how one of them disrupted that completely legal business of arms dealing to the Trandoshans.

I don’t know if the galactic public actually knows that Palpatine was behind the clone wars. I would think that even the average rebel believes that the Jedi may have launched a coup attempt to stop Palpatine from taking over everything and not the whole truth. Your average person in the galaxy probably believes even more of the cover story and might argue that Palpatine took it too far by making the Empire. There will always been this little thought in their head that the Jedi could always usurp the government if they became an institution again.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

@Imperial Citizen
Politicians are elected by the people. And at that point, the people should love the Jedi for what they did to save the galaxy from Palpatine, Thrawn, and the like. If anything, politicians should be buttering up the Jedi and posing for photo-ops with them so that they can have some of the Jedi's popularity rub off on them. The way these novels wrote politicians, it's as if they've never known or studied politicians in real life.

The Founding Fathers were still beloved by the majority of the populace. The people didn't reject them; in fact, George Washington got two consecutive terms as president with no one opposing him, and he would've been king if he wanted to. Aaron Burr was shunned by other politicians when he tried to run, because he killed one of the Founding Fathers, Alexander Hamilton.

Darth Vader was running around killing Jedi, and was beaten by a Jedi. He and his Emperor were taken out of the equation by a Jedi. So if anything, people would vouch for Luke and the NJO because he's directly responsible for ridding the galaxy of Sith troublemakers.

At this point, the Jedi are too few to launch any kind of coup. And the people would realistically trust and love them for saving them from Palpatine. Kind of like how Palpatine was loved and trusted by the Imperials for "saving" them from the Jedi and the Separatists. So if anything, the NR should've had a cult of personality surrounding the Jedi, and politicians would be rubbing elbows with them just to gain clout. "He supports the Jedi" should be a legit propaganda point for any New Republic official running for the post of president, while any politician that pisses off or goes against the Jedi should get booed at by his constituents and lose his popularity ratings.

 

[Quarterback Rex Grossman]

AOTC wasn't great but man what a time to be alive. I remember listening to the CD soundtrack and eating the cereal and wondering what the movie would be like. Plus back then the "future" of SW was relegated to brief glimpses of a random film stage in a DVD extra:

And this was the most we'd get of Old Luke:

Imagine if someone went back in time and told you everything that would happen after Donald Trump became President, how film studios would outright destroy their IPs and throw away billions of dollars just to stick it to people they don't like politically.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

AOTC wasn't great but man what a time to be alive. I remember listening to the CD soundtrack and eating the cereal and wondering what the movie would be like. Plus back then the "future" of SW was relegated to brief glimpses of a random film stage in a DVD extra:

And this was the most we'd get of Old Luke:

Imagine if someone went back in time and told you everything that would happen after Donald Trump became President, how film studios would outright destroy their IPs and throw away billions of dollars just to stick it to people they don't like politically.

If you went back to that time, you'd have EU fans asking you if Jedi Knight 4, Republic Commando 2, and KOTOR 3 came out.

 

[draggs]

And they didn't send in a better fleet with a better commander afterwards? Again, the story ends with the Vong losing to that pathetic remnant of the Empire and whatever parts of the New Republic that didn't get vongformed or massacred. No great weapons tech revolution, no Jedi using Battle Meditation to turn the tide. Even the magical dovin basals can get fucked by mass-firing low-power shots which would exhaust them, and we've seen all the way back in ANH where the fighting doctrine for starfighters and turbolasers was to spam DAKKA until the target is destroyed.

Meaning that from the start, the NR had the tech to beat them. The Empire managed to beat their tech, and if those losers could beat them, then the NR, which was stronger and had more unconventional leaders that could handle Vong commanders thinking outside the box, would've had no problems.

This shows that if the New Republic fought at 100% capacity from the start, which is what they would've logically done, the war would've been cut short. The Vong wouldn't get to Coruscant or the core worlds; they'd just get stopped at the Mid-Rim at most and then get pushed back. The story relied on the New Republic that the heroes fought so hard to establish being uncharacteristically dumb as bricks and turning their backs on their Jedi protectors who risked so much to help create and protect the New Republic in the first place. Which, from a historical/nation-building perspective, makes no sense whatsoever.

If I remember correctly, shield technology had some big improvement midway through the war that helped greatly against the vong weapons. Which at the start of the war ate through shields and hull armor like a snacc

And again we see your knowledge of the EU is not very good. Political machinations in the New Republic holding back the soldiers from kicking butt properly was a theme of the post RotJ EU stories the entire way, and it culminated with the vong war when the NR finally faced an enemy strong enough to properly take advantage of Borsk Fey'lya and others being selfish calculating retards

Although Borsk 72 virgining himself in the Imperial Palace in the face of the Vong commanders who were there to accept his surrender, killing tens of thousands of Vong soldiers in the process, was a pretty badass redeeming moment for him

Edit: Also I just remembered, there are several mentions shortly before the fall of Coruscant that warship production at Corellia, Kuat, etc., was finally hitting its stride. The galaxy was unprepared in every way for a total war. Several characters express confidence that in the end the galaxy will be able to produce too much stuff for the limited Vong resources to overcome, which is pretty much what happens

 

[White Devil]

@draggs To be fair, the Vong war was full of moments like that, though you'd have never expected one from Borsk. My favorite was probably Ganner Rhysode's last stand. Motherfucker did work.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

If I remember correctly, shield technology had some big improvement midway through the war that helped greatly against the vong weapons. Which at the start of the war ate through shields and hull armor like a snacc

@draggs
Shield technology? You do realize that the main threat against shields came from Dovin Basals just absorbing them, right? Improved shields would barely even cause that much of a difference when Dovin Basals ate them up. But the Dovin Basals could easily be defeated by mass-firing shots at them and causing them to overwork themselves and get tired.

And again we see your knowledge of the EU is not very good. Political machinations in the New Republic holding back the soldiers from kicking butt properly was a theme of the post RotJ EU stories the entire way, and it culminated with the vong war when the NR finally faced an enemy strong enough to properly take advantage of Borsk Fey'lya and others being selfish calculating retards

Edit: Also I just remembered, there are several mentions shortly before the fall of Coruscant that warship production at Corellia, Kuat, etc., was finally hitting its stride. The galaxy was unprepared in every way for a total war. Several characters express confidence that in the end the galaxy will be able to produce too much stuff for the limited Vong resources to overcome, which is pretty much what happens

That's not what I saw from stories that came after Dark Empire and ROTJ. The New Republic was born from a galaxy that was engaged in total war, and it became stronger, politically and militarily, as it continued to build up more of its forces and knock the stuffing out of the Empire, up to the point where the Empire had to flat-out fucking surrender. The Thrawn Trilogy literally began with the Empire and New Republic being on equal grounds military-wise, back then when the Imperial Remnant was still large enough to occupy half the galaxy, which means that the two factions had equivalent forces with each other (showing that the NR does NOT have a problem militarizing or producing ships) and Han Solo even describes that the NR fights harder because they believe in their cause more than the Empire does.

So at that point, we see that the NR is just as armed to the teeth and militarized as the Empire was. And that was back then when the Imperial Remnant was still big enough to occupy half the galaxy, instead of being relegated to a local banana republic-style domain at the ass end of space. The Empire surrendered after the New Republic crushed their nuts one too many times, years after Creamy Sheev died his final death on Onderon.

It just seems like the authors flip-flop on the NR being effective or ineffective depending on whether or not they want to have a story about it, which is about as bad as capeshit comic plots where one moment Superman can move planets, and another moment, he gets punked by a third-rate villain like Livewire whom he should easily be able to kill. The New Republic is Superman, and the Vong killing it was just as bad a plotline like when Doomsday killed Superman because DC wanted a dark story to grab headlines.

Not to mention the fact that, again, the politicians trying to negotiate with the Vong while stiffing the Jedi makes no goddamn sense whatsoever. The Empire at least, negotiating with them can make sense in the idea that they're no longer the superpower they once were (they were equal to the NR in the Thrawn Trilogy, and it was all downhill from there) but the Vong were totally alien to the galaxy, despised how the people of the galaxy lived (they didn't like the fact that the people of the NR used tech and droids) and according to the NJO novels themselves, the Vong killed 365 trillion people in the span of 4 years. Meaning that for each day they were around during the war, they killed around 250 billion people. If anything, the fact that they're an unknown element, combined with their brutality and their sadism, would have logically united the galaxy behind the Jedi, galvanizing support for them and leading to the NR fighting the Vong at full force from the start, with even corrupt politicians patting them on the back and giving them full support, just so they can secure their ratings.

Once again, the New Republic's history of constantly being saved by Luke and his buddies' hijinks, coupled with the fact that saving Yavin IV from the Death Star and avenging Alderaan by destroying that space station was literally the New Republic's Year Zero, should have made it so that the New Republic WORSHIPS the ground the Jedi walk. At least in the Old Republic, the Jedi have supported corrupt politicians for way too long before the Clone Wars, which explains why people began questioning them, but the New Republic wouldn't have existed at all if it weren't for the Jedi's actions. But for the New Republic, their mere EXISTENCE hinges on the Jedi doing things.

Time and again, they were saved from total annihilation by lightsaber-wielding maniacs. The Thrawn Trilogy. Dark Empire. The Jedi Knight games where Jedi stopped the Empire from getting an advantage through the Force. The Jedi characters constantly fighting with Imperial remnants and keeping them down. Like I told @Imperial Citizen, politicians are elected by the people. And at that point, the people should love the Jedi for what they did to save the galaxy from Palpatine, Thrawn, and the like. If anything, politicians should be buttering up the Jedi and posing for photo-ops with them so that they can have some of the Jedi's popularity rub off on them.

The people of the New Republic would realistically trust and love them for saving the galaxy from Palpatine. Kind of like how Palpatine was loved and trusted by the Imperials for "saving" them from the Jedi and the Separatists. So if anything, the NR should've had a cult of personality surrounding the Jedi, and politicians would be rubbing elbows with them just to gain clout. "He supports the Jedi" should be a legit propaganda point for any New Republic official running for the post of president, while any politician that pisses off or goes against the Jedi should get booed at by his constituents and lose his popularity ratings.

The conflict between Borsk and the Jedi should've been about HOW to fight the Vong, not whether or not they should even fight them. (ie. have the Vong take the Outer Rim but then fail to take the Mid-Rim because the Jedi became wise to their tricks and start using things like Battle Meditation, and the Jedi at most hold back the Vong with their armies, but plenty of people from the Outer Rim who became refugees want the Vong totally eradicated, and Borsk contacts some Imperial war criminals to aid him in totally eradicating the Vong while the Jedi merely want the Vong contained until the Vong get tired of the war.)

Although Borsk 72 virgining himself in the Imperial Palace in the face of the Vong commanders who were there to accept his surrender, killing tens of thousands of Vong soldiers in the process, was a pretty badass redeeming moment for him

Borsk going full Allahu Ackbar and killing thousands of Vong sounds badass, unless you count in the fact that 250 billion people died to them every single day. At that point, Borsk did the equivalent of a girly slap towards a guy that was stomping out the NR's intestines.

Again, it's like whoever wrote Borsk in NJO hasn't studied how politicians in a democracy would react in a war against a foreign, alien power that massacres the shit out of people. Borsk stiffing the Jedi would've logically led to him getting voted out in favor of a more pro-Jedi president who backs the Jedi up the whole way at the least, or at worst, he'll get killed by his constituents. Republics and democracies are far more brutal and unforgiving in wars than kingdoms are. Just look at how jingoistic America was over the USS Maine blowing up near Cuba, or in WW1 or WW2, where they got their butts up to uniting and kicking the shit out of the Germans and Japanese within a year of joining the war.

It's weird, because the author who mapped out the whole plot of NJO was James Luceno, whose writings on Palpatine, Plagueis, Tarkin, and the like showed that he can write corrupt politicians with more than two brain cells in their heads. The way Palpatine plays the Senate in works like Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, and the way Plagueis maps out their plan to take over the Republic in his eponymous novel, show corrupt politicians actually acting with logic and guile; Borsk had neither. Either Luceno got better with time as he went from writing NJO novels to writing novels about the Sith during and after 2005, or he has some kind of Imperial bias where corrupt Sith/Imperial politicians actually act smart while corrupt NR politicians are completely stupid.

Palpatine from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader would run rings around Borsk in NJO. The former is a corrupt politician who uses his brains, the latter is a corrupt politician who might as well have the words "OBSTRUCTIVE BUREAUCRAT" written on the back of his shirt and on his business card. Obstructive Bureaucrat characters are far from realistic, especially in war scenarios where in real life, politicians during war are the exact opposite of obstructive bureaucrats; the honest ones want the war to end as quick as possible, the corrupt ones use the war to gain more power and remove any obstructions to the nation arming itself and fighting a total war.

 

[draggs]

@draggs
Shield technology? You do realize that the main threat against shields came from Dovin Basals just absorbing them, right? Improved shields would barely even cause that much of a difference when Dovin Basals ate them up. But the Dovin Basals could easily be defeated by mass-firing shots at them and causing them to overwork themselves and get tired.

I don't realize that, because dovin basals were defensive (and half the sublight propulsion system). The shield-draining thing was countered by some simple tech the tech improvisation that didn't require any new technology

Yaret-Kors were the weapons of Vong ships and fighters (and the other half of the sublight propulsion system)

Kinda weird to mix those two up for such a knowledgeable Star Wars autist

Shut up now, it's so tiresome with your ridiculous text wall sperging and how many mistakes you make

And how canon doesn't mean something when you don't want it to

But it does matter when you want to say someone doesn't know anything

And your other shenanigans

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I don't realize that, because dovin basals were defensive (and half the sublight propulsion system)

Wow, look who doesn't know his lore.

Yaret-Kors were the weapons of Vong ships and fighters (and the other half of the sublight propulsion system)

Kinda weird to mix those two up for such a knowledgeable Star Wars autist

Shut up now, it's so tiresome with your ridiculous text wall sperging and how many mistakes you make

And how canon doesn't mean something when you don't want it to

But it does matter when you want to say someone doesn't know anything

And your other shenanigans

Again, your whole spiel of "the New Republic wasn't ready for total war" makes no sense when the Thrawn Trilogy literally begins with the New Republic being just as strong and armed to the teeth as the Empire was, back then when the Imperial Remnant was still strong enough to keep half the galaxy. That was BEFORE Thrawn sauntered onto the scene. And their fights with Palpatine and Thrawn should've made the New Republic even more hawkish and militaristic, not the other way around. If anything, the non-stop wars would've made the New Republic even more militaristic and ready for a total war scenario, since they've done nothing but FIGHT every since the NR was born. They've fought Imperial warlords, Grand Admirals, and a reviving Emperor who had a stockpile of superweapons. The New Republic was born and forged in the fires of total war, making them suddenly weak to it makes no sense whatsoever. It reeks of artificial drama and them trying to gain attention by doing something dark.

And again, you can't counter my points because they're correct. No wonder @Cyril Sneer was slapping the shit out of you idiots in the Griefing thread before I came along. He knew his stuff, you freaks barely knew anything outside your comfort zones. Even with all the books you've read, you could barely debate with him.

 

[Ishtar]

And they didn't send in a better fleet with a better commander afterwards? Again, the story ends with the Vong losing to that pathetic remnant of the Empire and whatever parts of the New Republic that didn't get vongformed or massacred. No great weapons tech revolution, no Jedi using Battle Meditation to turn the tide. Even the magical dovin basals can get fucked by mass-firing low-power shots which would exhaust them, and we've seen all the way back in ANH where the fighting doctrine for starfighters and turbolasers was to spam DAKKA until the target is destroyed.

Meaning that from the start, the NR had the tech to beat them. The Empire managed to beat their tech, and if those losers could beat them, then the NR, which was stronger and had more unconventional leaders that could handle Vong commanders thinking outside the box, would've had no problems.

This shows that if the New Republic fought at 100% capacity from the start, which is what they would've logically done, the war would've been cut short. The Vong wouldn't get to Coruscant or the core worlds; they'd just get stopped at the Mid-Rim at most and then get pushed back. The story relied on the New Republic that the heroes fought so hard to establish being uncharacteristically dumb as bricks and turning their backs on their Jedi protectors who risked so much to help create and protect the New Republic in the first place. Which, from a historical/nation-building perspective, makes no sense whatsoever.

The NR leadership made bad calls and Fey'la didn't take the war seriously. If you recall alien incursions like the Ssi-Ruu or Yevetha had been minor problems for the past twenty years, and war with the empire had concluded six years before. I can easily believe the government would not have recognized how serious the threat was until the Vong's momentum could no longer be halted.

Government's falter and make dumb mistakes, politicians act in self interested ways and new threats aren't always taken seriously. That's entirely normal and based in history.

Again, your whole spiel of "the New Republic wasn't ready for total war" makes no sense when the Thrawn Trilogy literally begins with the New Republic being just as strong and armed to the teeth as the Empire was, back then when the Imperial Remnant was still strong enough to keep half the galaxy. That was BEFORE Thrawn sauntered onto the scene. And their fights with Palpatine and Thrawn should've made the New Republic even more hawkish and militaristic, not the other way around. If anything, the non-stop wars would've made the New Republic even more militaristic and ready for a total war scenario, since they've done nothing but FIGHT every since the NR was born. They've fought Imperial warlords, Grand Admirals, and a reviving Emperor who had a stockpile of superweapons. The New Republic was born and forged in the fires of total war, making them suddenly weak to it makes no sense whatsoever. It reeks of artificial drama and them trying to gain attention by doing something dark.

You do realize the civil war after Endor wasn't a galaxy spanning conventional conflict except for brief periods right? Fighting warlords didn't require the NR's total attention or time, as often they ended up killing each other. Why would the NR treat the Vong that seriously-when the Ssi-Ruu, Nagai, Yevetha and at least one or two other alien incursions had not been existential wars? You're presuming Borsk Fey'le read the books he was in, and not a character IU with his own political interests that didn't entail caring about something happening in the outer boonies.

As it so happened, the galactic alliance did start militarizing and federalizing after the Vong war(and the Killik crisis) so much so the Corellians had an excuse to launch another civil war. The same incentives wouldn't have existed in 24 ABY. The empire was defeated and quiet, the Yevetha contained, the dark imperium beaten, the main issue of the NR was local conflicts and the Jedi going after politically connected organized crime. An existential war with an alien race with the means and will to destroy galactic civilization and replace it with their own isn't something anyone increases the defense budget for in peace time.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

@Ishtar

The NR leadership made bad calls and Fey'la didn't take the war seriously. If you recall alien incursions like the Ssi-Ruu or Yevetha had been minor problems for the past twenty years, and war with the empire had concluded six years before. I can easily believe the government would not have recognized how serious the threat was until the Vong's momentum could no longer be halted.

Government's falter and make dumb mistakes, politicians act in self interested ways and new threats aren't always taken seriously. That's entirely normal and based in history.

......Didn't take the war very seriously? The bastards were killing a quarter of a trillion people for every single day they were around. According to the novels, the Vong killed 365 trillion over the span of four years, that means that an average of 250 billion a day. That's a million times worse than the Empire, the Ssi-Ruu, or the Yevetha, or any threat outside of maybe the New Sith Empire that died 1000 years before the films. If anything, that would've caused the whole galaxy to unite under one banner, and that would've caused Fey'lya to set aside all his differences with the Jedi just to get rid of these pests.

The way the NR reacted is horribly unrealistic. Even self-interested politicians would set aside their schemes to combat an outside threat that's killing THAT MANY PEOPLE. If anything, Fey'lya should've gone the Palpatine route and used the Vong crisis to secure permanent power for himself by removing any check and balance to his power with the excuse that he'll use all that power to help the New Republic win against the Vong.

You do realize the civil war after Endor wasn't a galaxy spanning conventional conflict except for brief periods right? Fighting warlords didn't require the NR's total attention or time, as often they ended up killing each other. Why would the NR treat the Vong that seriously-when the Ssi-Ruu, Nagai, Yevetha and at least one or two other alien incursions had not been existential wars? You're presuming Borsk Fey'le read the books he was in, and not a character IU with his own political interests that didn't entail caring about something happening in the outer boonies.

Uh, because the Vong are killing way more people than any of those losers? And again, the New Republic was born in the fires of total war against galaxy-spanning powers. They were fighting large Empire remnant states that started off controlling most of the galaxy, and by the time of the Thrawn novels, the two factions, Empire and New Republic, were locked in total war with each other and each had half the galaxy to themselves. If anything, the New Republic should've developed along militaristic lines like Prussia, because they've been fighting for as long as they've existed.

As it so happened, the galactic alliance did start militarizing and federalizing after the Vong war(and the Killik crisis) so much so the Corellians had an excuse to launch another civil war. The same incentives wouldn't have existed in 24 ABY. The empire was defeated and quiet, the Yevetha contained, the dark imperium beaten, the main issue of the NR was local conflicts and the Jedi going after politically connected organized crime. An existential war with an alien race with the means and will to destroy galactic civilization and replace it with their own isn't something anyone increases the defense budget for in peace time.

You obviously weren't paying attention after 9/11. Military budget and wartime powers shot up the ass after a bunch of fucking yahoos killed 3000 people in NYC. So yes, an existential war with a foreign culture that seeks to subvert and destroy civilization DOES cause people to increase budget even in times when we technically weren't at war. Also, the Corellians launching a civil war made no fucking sense, as I'd already covered in the main griefing thread, because it just exposes the Alliance's heroes as a bunch of selfish, back-stabbing yahoos who would kill each other over stupid-ass politics, when in reality, the Alliance war heroes, some of whom date back to the Clone Wars, would've just naturally told the politicians like Cal Omas and Thrackan-Sal-Solo to settle it in a debate chamber instead of in the battlefield.

And again, the sheer amount of casualties the Vong were inflicting in their invasion should've united a democracy into wartime mode. Real-world democracies have united for less; America united against the Germans because of the Lusitania and against the Japanese due to Pearl Harbor. A cursory glance of real history makes the plot of the NJO novels look like unrealistic bullshit.

 

[Pentex]

Aaron Burr was shunned by other politicians when he tried to run, because he killed one of the Founding Fathers, Alexander Hamilton.

Off-topic.
Burr's political downfall had more to do with his political rivalry with Thomas Jefferson than his killing of Alexander Hamilton, who was himself spent force in American politics by the time of their duel.

On-topic.
Borsk Fey'lya was always a dumbass character, whose political career should have been well and truly ended when it was revealed that he tried to frame Admiral Ackbar for treason.

 

[draggs]

Wow, look who doesn't know his lore.

But I did know it, autist. Dovin basals stripping shields was barely ever mentioned after the early books because a countermeasure was found. The basals needed to be in close proximity so it was never much of a threat to capital ships

Again, your whole spiel of "the New Republic wasn't ready for total war" makes no sense when the Thrawn Trilogy literally begins with the New Republic being just as strong and armed to the teeth as the Empire was, back then when the Imperial Remnant was still strong enough to keep half the galaxy. That was BEFORE Thrawn sauntered onto the scene. And their fights with Palpatine and Thrawn should've made the New Republic even more hawkish and militaristic, not the other way around. If anything, the non-stop wars would've made the New Republic even more militaristic and ready for a total war scenario, since they've done nothing but FIGHT every since the NR was born. They've fought Imperial warlords, Grand Admirals, and a reviving Emperor who had a stockpile of superweapons. The New Republic was born and forged in the fires of total war, making them suddenly weak to it makes no sense whatsoever. It reeks of artificial drama and them trying to gain attention by doing something dark.

I don't give a shit that you think because the canon doesn't make sense to you that it doesn't count

That's not the way things work sorry not sorry

Yet again we see your knowledge of the EU is dogshit

After the defeat of Daala in Darksaber, it was well-established in the books that the New Republic faced no mortal threats, and this was used to create political tension in multiple stories, most notably in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy. When the New Republic built and activated the Fifth Fleet, it was controversial because many Senators - and indeed, the general public - thought there was no need to continue increasing the size of the military

The Hand of Thrawn duology was a political thriller, not a war story, precisely because the Empire was too weak anymore to be a military threat to the New Republic. That's why fake Thrawn was only part of Moff Disra's plan, the other part was to break up the New Republic via interspecies squabbling by using a forged document alleging that the Bothans had helped Palpatine in the glassing of Caamas. The duology also hammers home the point again and again that the New Republic's military is much smaller than the Empire's was at its height, and that the Empire didn't even use most of its forces against the Rebellion - most of the Imperial military was used to suppress interspecies conflicts. The New Republic did it with diplomacy, not force, which is why the Caamas crisis was so serious. If species picked up their old feuds and decided to go to war over them, there was no military force strong enough to stop all the wars that would erupt from one side of the galaxy to the other

The New Republic was not suddenly made weak, which you would know if you actually read anything about the EU, but you haven't, so you just screech about how it doesn't make sense. What the books say > what you think. Get over it

And again, you can't counter my points because they're correct. No wonder @Cyril Sneer was slapping the shit out of you idiots in the Griefing thread before I came along. He knew his stuff, you freaks barely knew anything outside your comfort zones. Even with all the books you've read, you could barely debate with him.

I don't know who that is and don't care. Everything you say about the EU is wrong because you have limited knowledge of it, and autistically screech that it doesn't make sense to you. That it makes sense just fine to others doesn't matter because you're an autist with no social skills whatsoever

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Off-topic.
Burr's political downfall had more to do with his political rivalry with Thomas Jefferson than his killing of Alexander Hamilton, who was himself spent force in American politics by the time of their duel.

Not what I heard in history class. My teacher was adamant that Burr lost any chance of running for the presidency when he killed Hamilton.

On-topic.
Borsk Fey'lya was always a dumbass character, whose political career should have been well and truly ended when it was revealed that he tried to frame Admiral Ackbar for treason.

Borsk Fey'lya is like someone's bad fanfic idea of an obstructive bureaucrat politician. And framing Admiral Ackbar for treason should've ended with him getting retired from the New Republic political sphere at least, or executed at worst.

They really didn't study history. Whenever a real threat showed up, democracies don't just ignore it, they go full autismo and unite against it. We've seen this in WW1, WW2, the Cold War, the War on Terror, all the corrupt politicians shut their mouths and unite behind Wilson, FDR, Bush II, and approve of any measures they propose to gain victory. If anything, corrupt politicians would do what Revan and Palpatine did, and try to use the outside threat to unite the galaxy under their regime, justifying their appropriation of increased power by demonizing the enemy as their excuse.

A better plotline would be a what-if scenario where Borsk or some other corrupt New Republic leader uses the Vong as an excuse to centralize power and create another dictatorship. Like, imagine the Jedi and their allies fighting the Vong on the one hand, but at the same time, arguing against a more dictatorial government a la the Empire being formed by the New Republic back on Coruscant, except this time they're facing an uphill battle, because unlike the Separatists who merely wanted their freedom and one could argue that they might be right, the Vong are just massacring people left and right, so it's harder for the Jedi to stop this Palpatine-wannabe in the NR because there'd be times where some of the Jedi would waver in their conviction and agree with this idiot, that the galaxy needs to be more centralized to protect against threats like the Vong.

@draggs

But I did know it, autist. Dovin basals stripping shields was barely ever mentioned after the early books because a countermeasure was found. The basals needed to be in close proximity so it was never much of a threat to capital ships

They were also the primary means of movement and defense for Vong ships, absorbing enemy attacks with mini-black-holes. Forgot about that, didn't you?

Not to mention that an incremental shield increase is pathetic when you consider the fact that the end of the Clone Wars and the rise of the Empire brought about so many changes, like cloaking technology, stronger blasters, larger warships with stronger guns and shields, composite lasers (used by both the LAAT gunship and the Death Star), personal energy shields, power armor, among other things. And that was just them after fighting some cannon-fodder robots. You'd think a war against a totally alien species that killed 250 billion people a day would cause far more tech upgrades than a damn shield upgrade.

I don't give a shit that you think because the canon doesn't make sense to you that it doesn't count

That's not the way things work sorry not sorry

Yet again we see your knowledge of the EU is dogshit

After the defeat of Daala in Darksaber, it was well-established in the books that the New Republic faced no mortal threats, and this was used to create political tension in multiple stories, most notably in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy. When the New Republic built and activated the Fifth Fleet, it was controversial because many Senators - and indeed, the general public - thought there was no need to continue increasing the size of the military

The Hand of Thrawn duology was a political thriller, not a war story, precisely because the Empire was too weak anymore to be a military threat to the New Republic. That's why fake Thrawn was only part of Moff Disra's plan, the other part was to break up the New Republic via interspecies squabbling by using a forged document alleging that the Bothans had helped Palpatine in the glassing of Caamas. The duology also hammers home the point again and again that the New Republic's military is much smaller than the Empire's was at its height, and that the Empire didn't even use most of its forces against the Rebellion - most of the Imperial military was used to suppress interspecies conflicts. The New Republic did it with diplomacy, not force, which is why the Caamas crisis was so serious. If species picked up their old feuds and decided to go to war over them, there was no military force strong enough to stop all the wars that would erupt from one side of the galaxy to the other

The New Republic was not suddenly made weak, which you would know if you actually read anything about the EU, but you haven't, so you just screech about how it doesn't make sense. What the books say > what you think. Get over it

Except we literally start the Thrawn Trilogy at a time of relative calm between the two warring factions, and the New Republic was just as militarized and armed to the teeth as the Empire-back then when the Empire still occupied half the galaxy, not when they occupied some small part of it. And the New Republic only got stronger with time. As the Empire fell through the course of the Thrawn Trilogy, Dark Empire, and Crimson Empire, more and more Imperial resources, war materials, and worlds fell into the hands of the NR. Shit, Crimson Empire starts off with the NR capturing a Super Star Destroyer, for crying out loud!

And a decade of peace would hardly dull the New Republic's industrial capacity. Likely, such things like shipyards would've moved to civilian construction instead of the NR suddenly being shit at building ships, then when the Vong arrive, they'd shift back into gear and have them build military ships again. All that manufacturing that the Empire left behind doesn't just get smashed into pieces; logically, the NR would still keep factories and shipyards running, except they'd be making things for local planetary governments or civilian contractors until war heats up again and they start making stuff for the national government once more.

Just look at America. They militarized at the drop of a hat. The moment the Lusitania sunk or Pearl Harbor got bombed, they didn't care if they had decades of peace, they suddenly went back into full total war mode all over again in less than a year. You're telling me that the New Republic, which is essentially Space America, couldn't do that? Especially when the Thrawn Trilogy literally begins with the idea that they're just as heavily-armed and militarized as the Empire is, back when the Empire was a legitimate threat on the league of the CIS, instead of some tin-pot dictatorship resembling a banana republic?

Please. You just want to excuse books that create artificial conflict which only work because the good guy faction is run by morons.

I don't know who that is and don't care. Everything you say about the EU is wrong because you have limited knowledge of it, and autistically screech that it doesn't make sense to you. That it makes sense just fine to others doesn't matter because you're an autist with no social skills whatsoever

Social skills? On the internet? Are you fucking kidding me? The internet is where social skills go to fucking die. Half the shit you people say here would get your ass beat in real life by people who don't spend 24/7 on the web. All this whining about gays, trannies, Jews, feminists, blacks, SJWs, and Disney would at best, get you beaten in the face in real life, and at worst, fired from your jobs or locked up behind bars.

 

[Pentex]

Not what I heard in history class. My teacher was adamant that Burr lost any chance of running for the presidency when he killed Hamilton.

Your teacher was giving the short-handed version at best, and the 'politically correct' version at worst.

To not clog up the thread with /his/tism:

Spoiler

Burr's killing of Hamilton was denounced by the New York Federalists, but like Hamilton, they were on the way on politically by this time and New England 'Christians' who wanted dueling banned and punished. Prior to this, Hamilton had a long reputation for wielding the poisonous pen against his political rivals (in Burr's case, Hamilton had been riding him for 15 years), so even men who disliked Burr, while not approving of his shooting Hamilton, understood why he finally did it. Even when Burr returned to New York, he was never brought to trial in New York or New Jersey, not even for the duel itself (which was illegal at the time, regardless of what the island monkey Miranda says).

Burr's political downfall is more closely tied to his opposition by the Virginians, and the leader of both their faction and the Democratic Party at the time, Thomas Jefferson. Burr was a powerful vote getter and a populist in his day, which is why Jefferson did his best to keep him isolated within the administration and the party for four years. Since the Democratic Party was firmly controlled by the Virginians, Burr opted to run for governor of New York. Hamilton did his thing in the press (libeled Burr) which led to Burr losing to Morgan Lewis. Jefferson then did everything he could to have Burr run in for treason, when, at most, Burr wanted to assist Mexico in seizing Spanish territory (a violation of the Neutrality Act).

A better plotline would be a what-if scenario where Borsk or some other corrupt New Republic leader uses the Vong as an excuse to centralize power and create another dictatorship.

It would have been more interesting if the Republic fractured with various senators and Republic commanders siphoning as many resources as they could to fortify their own home planets and systems before the fall of Coruscant.

Have some systems effectively able to repel the Vong (through secret technology/anti-vong weaponry) with others fighting tooth-and-nail to keep the Vong at bay, and still others plundering their weaker neighbors for resources to improve their own defenses. Hell, even have a few make deals with the Vong.

Of the Solo children, they could have had Jacen be the Revan-like 'defeat-the-Vong-by-any-means-necessary' figure, Jaina be the 'For The Republic!' loyalist, and Anakin be the 'Keeper of the Jedi ways' character.

Star Wars is not the Grimdark sci-fi setting, but since they opened that door with NJO, might as well have made the most of it.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Your teacher was giving the short-handed version at best, and the 'politically correct' version at worst.

I'll take your word for it.

It would have been more interesting if the Republic fractured with various senators and Republic commanders siphoning as many resources as they could to fortify their own home planets and systems before the fall of Coruscant.

Have some systems effectively able to repel the Vong (through secret technology/anti-vong weaponry) with others fighting tooth-and-nail to keep the Vong at bay, and still others plundering their weaker neighbors for resources to improve their own defenses. Hell, even have a few make deals with the Vong.

Of the Solo children, they could have had Jacen be the Revan-like 'defeat-the-Vong-by-any-means-necessary' figure, Jaina be the 'For The Republic!' loyalist, and Anakin be the 'Keeper of the Jedi ways' character.

Star Wars is not the Grimdark sci-fi setting, but since they opened that door with NJO, might as well have made the most of it.

That's a nice plot, too, but I'd rather go with the NR threatening to become the Empire 2.0 because of how scared the people would be of the Vong. That, and traditionally, democracies tend to unite in times of major crises, giving away tremendous emergency powers to leaders just to ensure victory. It'd rhyme with the Prequels' plot, with the major difference being that the wannabe-dictator has no control at all over the Vong, and some Jedi would actually come to believe that centralization is the right way to go to fight the Vong.

I don't really like Star Wars going grimdark. Especially when the following book series just dialed it down back to stupid political wars. At least with the Old Republic era, when they do grimdark, the wars are separated between centuries or even millennia of peace, so it makes sense why you can go from grimdark to light-hearted rather easily, since it'd have been a thousand years since the last major hurdle came along.

 

[Ishtar]

......Didn't take the war very seriously? The bastards were killing a quarter of a trillion people for every single day they were around. According to the novels, the Vong killed 365 trillion over the span of four years, that means that an average of 250 billion a day. That's a million times worse than the Empire, the Ssi-Ruu, or the Yevetha, or any threat outside of maybe the New Sith Empire that died 1000 years before the films. If anything, that would've caused the whole galaxy to unite under one banner, and that would've caused Fey'lya to set aside all his differences with the Jedi just to get rid of these pests.

Uh, do you realize how the Vong operated? They weren't slamming the exterminatus button or dropping moons every world they conquered. A lot of worlds were conquered, their inhabitants, enslaved and sacrificed. This process would have taken months and years, even over a wide swathe of space. It wouldn't have been obvious at the end of Vector Prime. Not to mention the 365 trillion includes military deaths, (I want to say Vong deaths as well).

The way the NR reacted is horribly unrealistic. Even self-interested politicians would set aside their schemes to combat an outside threat that's killing THAT MANY PEOPLE. If anything, Fey'lya should've gone the Palpatine route and used the Vong crisis to secure permanent power for himself by removing any check and balance to his power with the excuse that he'll use all that power to help the New Republic win against the Vong.

Do you even remember the events of the early war? The Vong broke out from the outer rim and initiated a massive refugee crisis, while the NR was still not mobilized or reacting appropriately. It wasn't until the Vong wiped out Ithor that the government realized the scale of the threat, and by then Lah was already formulating Battle Plan Coruscant(or would be soon).

Uh, because the Vong are killing way more people than any of those losers? And again, the New Republic was born in the fires of total war against galaxy-spanning powers. They were fighting large Empire remnant states that started off controlling most of the galaxy, and by the time of the Thrawn novels, the two factions, Empire and New Republic, were locked in total war with each other and each had half the galaxy to themselves. If anything, the New Republic should've developed along militaristic lines like Prussia, because they've been fighting for as long as they've existed.

They weren't killing that many people until they had actually occupied a sizable amount of the galaxy. Some minor unknown regions alien incursion wasn't worth sending the entire NR navy to deal with. The attitude of the NR in Vector Prime supports this. War as you describe it between the NR and Empire occurred during times the empire was unified-under Thrawn, Palpatine, and in the last year of the war Daala. The NR is not Prussia. Where on earth would you get the impression a democratic relatively decentralized state was like Prussia?

You obviously weren't paying attention after 9/11. Military budget and wartime powers shot up the ass after a bunch of fucking yahoos killed 3000 people in NYC. So yes, an existential war with a foreign culture that seeks to subvert and destroy civilization DOES cause people to increase budget even in times when we technically weren't at war. Also, the Corellians launching a civil war made no fucking sense, as I'd already covered in the main griefing thread, because it just exposes the Alliance's heroes as a bunch of selfish, back-stabbing yahoos who would kill each other over stupid-ass politics, when in reality, the Alliance war heroes, some of whom date back to the Clone Wars, would've just naturally told the politicians like Cal Omas and Thrackan-Sal-Solo to settle it in a debate chamber instead of in the battlefield.

You got me on Han there. The Corellians were the ones militarizing under Thrackan and other Corellian politicians. Han's only justification is he had a mid life bout of Corellian nationalism and Leia followed him into it for some reason. Omas doesn't answer to Luke skywalker and was under political pressure to resolve the re activation of Centerpoint Station. The Jedi launched a raid and it became a massive clusterfuck. (I read Betrayal less than a year ago).

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

@Ishtar

Uh, do you realize how the Vong operated? They weren't slamming the exterminatus button or dropping moons every world they conquered. A lot of worlds were conquered, their inhabitants, enslaved and sacrificed. This process would have taken months and years, even over a wide swathe of space. It wouldn't have been obvious at the end of Vector Prime. Not to mention the 365 trillion includes military deaths, (I want to say Vong deaths as well).

Unless the NR has a military several times the size of the Galactic Empire (the Empire's military never got past 100 trillion, even at its height) then yes, the majority of casualties ARE civilian deaths. And you just said it-enslaved AND sacrificed. And yes, the novel Unifying Force does make it clear that at least 365 trillion people died. And no, there's no guarantee that this figure includes Vong casualties as well, and even if they did, it would also be below 100 trillion, since neither the Vong or the New Republic was as large and as militarized as the Empire was at its height.

Palpatine was nowhere near as evil as the Vong were. To put it in KOTOR terms, Palpatine was more like Revan; he wanted to capture and control things, whereas the Vong were like Malak, destroying anything that even reeked of resistance against them.

Do you even remember the events of the early war? The Vong broke out from the outer rim and initiated a massive refugee crisis, while the NR was still not mobilized or reacting appropriately. It wasn't until the Vong wiped out Ithor that the government realized the scale of the threat, and by then Lah was already formulating Battle Plan Coruscant(or would be soon).

That's the problem. They should've reacted quickly, or at least went full War on Terror mode and mobilized against the Vong. Not to mention the fact that the Rebel Alliance started off in the Outer Rim; most of their early support came from the rim worlds who were tired of Imperial over-reach while most of the core worlds remained faithful to the Emperor even after Alderaan got disintegrated.

So if anything, the combined refugee crisis (which would cause these refugees and the people sharing worlds with them to urge their politicians to act fast) along with the fact that the Alliance's old heartlands are getting besieged would have caused the New Republic to react the same way the Old Republic did when the Sith or the Separatists invaded. As in, about-face, emergency powers across the board, and the top brass going full autismo to defeat the enemy.

Even if they weren't a serious threat to the core worlds, the Vong presence would have shaken the people enough to the point where they'd pressure their politicians to NOT let this happen to their planets and rally around the Jedi. You know, the very same yahoos who SAVED the galaxy multiple times by now?

They weren't killing that many people until they had actually occupied a sizable amount of the galaxy. Some minor unknown regions alien incursion wasn't worth sending the entire NR navy to deal with. The attitude of the NR in Vector Prime supports this. War as you describe it between the NR and Empire occurred during times the empire was unified-under Thrawn, Palpatine, and in the last year of the war Daala. The NR is not Prussia. Where on earth would you get the impression a democratic relatively decentralized state was like Prussia?

Considering that the NR was born in the fires of total war against another outside threat, it should be like Prussia. Unlike the Empire and the Old Republic that preceded it, the New Republic has no national culture outside of the Alliance Military and MAYBE their reverence for the Jedi. For the longest time, they weren't a nation with an army, but an army with a nation, which is exactly what Prussia was.

That, and if the New Republic was a decentralized democracy like the USA of old, well, how did the USA react to minor threats like the destruction of the Battleship Maine, the sinking of the Lusitania, or the bombing of Pearl Harbor? Did they go full Neville Chamberlain and try to negotiate with the Spanish, the Germans, or the Japanese? Fuck no, they rallied the whole country in less than a year and had them go full total war mode for MINOR DAMAGE. Pearl Harbor was just one military base, the Maine and the Lusitania were just single ships, there wasn't even enough evidence that the Spanish sank the USS Maine, and the Americans were already warned that ships like the Lusitania were going to be sunk like the Germans.

And yet they went fucking nuts, going full xenophobic against Germans in WW1, Japanese in WW2, and rallying the whole country to war as if their existence depended on it, which was obviously not the case for the Spanish-American War or WW1, since outside of the Axis Powers, the tattered remnants of Imperial Spain and the war-weary German Reich were hardly a threat to the Americans. Even if the Germans sent troops to aid Mexico as per the Zimmerman Telegram, the Americans could've easily crushed them. And yet America reacted to Maine and Lusitania as if some unforgivable crime was inflicted upon them.

Even the Barbary Pirates and the British attacking American shipping ended with the USA declaring war on them, and neither one of them invaded the USA prior to those events. And that was back then when the USA was more like a coalition of self-governing states that were each a republic unto themselves, rather than a single unified nation.

It's obvious that the NJO storyline ignores how even decentralized democracies like the USA reacted to a bug bite from a foreign power.

You got me on Han there. The Corellians were the ones militarizing under Thrackan and other Corellian politicians. Han's only justification is he had a mid life bout of Corellian nationalism and Leia followed him into it for some reason. Omas doesn't answer to Luke skywalker and was under political pressure to resolve the re activation of Centerpoint Station. The Jedi launched a raid and it became a massive clusterfuck. (I read Betrayal less than a year ago).

I don't mind the Corellians militarizing, the Bothans and the Hutts militarized for good reasons after the Vong War as well. Turning against the GA for stupid reasons was the unrealistic part. Especially since the Corellains had guys like Han and Wedge who would know that launching another civil war after the galaxy suffered three total wars would be unwise.

 

[Ishtar]

Unless the NR has a military several times the size of the Galactic Empire (the Empire's military never got past 100 trillion, even at its height) then yes, the majority of casualties ARE civilian deaths. And you just said it-enslaved AND sacrificed. And yes, the novel Unifying Force does make it clear that at least 365 trillion people died. And no, there's no guarantee that this figure includes Vong casualties as well, and even if they did, it would also be below 100 trillion, since neither the Vong or the New Republic was as large and as militarized as the Empire was at its height.

This doesn't follow. The NR explicitly was not militarized, to the point smugglers were running wild and brushfire conflicts were erupting in the outer rim. The NR had a core professional military that grew during the war.

You do remember the Vong terraformed loads of planets to their liking and made a point of specifically targeting refugees? The death toll from Vong occupation, direct killing, as well as having your planet turned into an alien jungle and being eaten by extragalactic wildlife would have resulted in gigantic civilian casualties.

That's the problem. They should've reacted quickly, or at least went full War on Terror mode and mobilized against the Vong. Not to mention the fact that the Rebel Alliance started off in the Outer Rim; most of their early support came from the rim worlds who were tired of Imperial over-reach while most of the core worlds remained faithful to the Emperor even after Alderaan got disintegrated.

So if anything, the combined refugee crisis (which would cause these refugees and the people sharing worlds with them to urge their politicians to act fast) along with the fact that the Alliance's old heartlands are getting besieged would have caused the New Republic to react the same way the Old Republic did when the Sith or the Separatists invaded. As in, about-face, emergency powers across the board, and the top brass going full autismo to defeat the enemy.

I don't think you realize the scale here. This is a galaxy, and there have been alien incursions occasionally in the past twenty years IU. Billions of refugees is a massive number to us, but in a galaxy of quadrillions, its not that important. You also remember Borsk Fey'la treated the Vong as something of a jedi instigated problem(as in it didn't benefit his career or political prospects).

Governments reacting slowly or sluggishly is not some wild anomaly even in RL. A peacetime government that isn't run by the most selfless of politicians with quadrillions of people under has to be hit in the face to notice you.

That, and if the New Republic was a decentralized democracy like the USA of old, well, how did the USA react to minor threats like the destruction of the Battleship Maine, the sinking of the Lusitania, or the bombing of Pearl Harbor? Did they go full Neville Chamberlain and try to negotiate with the Spanish, the Germans, or the Japanese? Fuck no, they rallied the whole country in less than a year and had them go full total war mode for MINOR DAMAGE. Pearl Harbor was just one military base, the Maine and the Lusitania were just single ships, there wasn't even enough evidence that the Spanish sank the USS Maine, and the Americans were already warned that ships like the Lusitania were going to be sunk like the Germans.

Uh dude, the NR is more like a confederation. Most member worlds are pretty much independent. It didn't become the lean federalized machine until Jacen was kicking in doors with the boys in black. Decentralized Republics tend to react slower to crises. The NR is not America, it doesn't have that sort of reach or cultural unity. You do recall, there was a near eruption of civil war due to the Caamasi crisis on the eve of the end of the GCW? Its a galactic confederation that is loosely under one government, with large stretches of space that have never seen an NR soldier or X-Wing.

I don't mind the Corellians militarizing, the Bothans and the Hutts militarized for good reasons after the Vong War as well. Turning against the GA for stupid reasons was the unrealistic part. Especially since the Corellains had guys like Han and Wedge who would know that launching another civil war after the galaxy suffered three total wars would be unwise.

The Corellians had been preparing for independence for years. That's the point of Centerpoint(pun not intended) its basically a guarantor if active of Corellian security and independence. It had already tried to break away once and had a very anti authoritarian and independent culture. Taxes, being required to submit to federalization in terms of security forces, etc... and you get men like Thrackan and well nationalism(in basically space Texas).