Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

Honestly, if Filoni had any balls, this would be Ahsoka's fate in Order 66, especially given her trust towards Anakin and her mistrust of the Jedi Council:
dark_ahsoka_by_kaelacroftart-d9b03sy.png


Anakin and his 501st, along with Captain Rex and Commander Appo, go into the Jedi Temple as the vanguard of the assault, while Ahsoka has command over Fox, Thire, and the Coruscant Guard. Their orders are to surround the Temple, making sure to kill any Jedi trying to leave.

Honestly what is left of Star Wars is there to be salvaged other than the old EU and what George Lucas had created?
That is all we need, my friend. That has always been with us, and that is all we need.
 
Honestly, if Filoni had any balls, this would be Ahsoka's fate in Order 66, especially given her trust towards Anakin and her mistrust of the Jedi Council:

Imagine, if you will, a world where Furlonely has died after being torn apart by wolves in 2010.

In the aftermath of the Emperor's death, one of the Moffs has suddenly been gaining a lot of power. Enemies tend to disappear, have accidents, or mysterious changes of opinions. This puts the Moff on a collision course with the New Republic and soon Luke meets the Moff's secret weapon: his father's padawan.

Ashoka survived Order 66 because she wasn't a Jedi. She survived the purges because one of the Moffs had taken her in and kept her hidden as Vader Insurance. And with no more Vader, the Moff wants to take over and put in place a kinder, gentler Empire - not the chaos of revolution.

Also, that image is really bad and inaccurate. She should be gripping them backwards, like a dildo.
And she was a good friend.
 
Imagine, if you will, a world where Furlonely has died after being torn apart by wolves in 2010.

In the aftermath of the Emperor's death, one of the Moffs has suddenly been gaining a lot of power. Enemies tend to disappear, have accidents, or mysterious changes of opinions. This puts the Moff on a collision course with the New Republic and soon Luke meets the Moff's secret weapon: his father's padawan.

Ashoka survived Order 66 because she wasn't a Jedi. She survived the purges because one of the Moffs had taken her in and kept her hidden as Vader Insurance. And with no more Vader, the Moff wants to take over and put in place a kinder, gentler Empire - not the chaos of revolution.
Nice. Here's my shot at it:

I'd say that in a better story, Ahsoka would actually hear about the Jedi Order's attempted coup-from Anakin himself. Since Ahsoka quit the Jedi Order, she is exempt from Order 66, but since she doesn't trust the Order, she falls hook line and sinker for Anakin's explanation of the events, which puts her in the same side as Chancellor Palpatine. Palpatine orders Anakin and the 501st to lead the assault on the Temple, but he has Ahsoka be put in charge of general security; she is given control over the Coruscant Guard, and they surround the Jedi Temple to prevent any escape. And when some Jedi try to escape the carnage in the Temple by leaving out the back door, they run right into Ahsoka and the Coruscant Guard, who show them no mercy. Ahsoka cuts down several of the Jedi, while the Coruscant Guard gun down the rest.

Then the rest of EP3 still happens, and when Ahsoka sees Anakin again, he's in the operating table after Obi-Wan lopped off his limbs and left him to burn in Mustafar. Ahsoka's mild distaste for the Jedi evolves into pure rage, seeing the man she loved be turned into a burning husk of what was once a man, and being told that it was Kenobi's fault. Later on, when they meet in the ruins of the Jedi Temple, Darth Vader embraces Ahsoka, saying that at least, one of his friends remained loyal to him. Ahsoka then becomes the new Grand Inquisitor, and she starts training captured Jedi into becoming Inquisitors. The sheer rage she felt when she saw Anakin's burning carcass of a body getting operated on by droids tipped her fully to the Dark Side, and now, she breaks the remaining Jedi into becoming servants of the only man she trusts-including Barriss Offee. Barriss asks the shadowy figure if she is indeed Ahsoka. Ahsoka replies that yes, it is her, and Offee is distraught over what happened to her, saying that they should together fight against the Sith. Ahsoka isn't listening, mostly because Barriss' hijinks nearly cost Ahsoka her life, and she just beats the shit out of Barriss physically and with the Force until Barriss finally submits and joins her in darkness.

Also, this explains why Vader wasn't going to try and overthrow the Emperor with Starkiller; he already has an apprentice of his own, one who follows every command to the letter, one no longer tainted with the weakness of the Jedi, unlike Starkiller, whose Jedi past had always held him back from truly accepting the Dark Side.

By the end of the events of the OT, Ahsoka hears about Vader's death on Endor, and the Empire begins to fragment. Having been a close servant of Vader, Ahsoka has amassed a fleet and a sector of her own, and since she is the true mastermind behind the Inquisitors, she hears about Jerec's fall in the Valley of the Jedi at the hands of Kyle Katarn. Unfortunately for Katarn, Ahsoka was tracking Jerec's flagship the Vengeance, and she arrives there on her own SSD and her own fleet, and they take over Ruusan. A (mostly) self-taught Jedi like Kyle was no match for Ahsoka, who trained under both Anakin and Vader, and she defeats him rather handily. Ahsoka then uses the Valley of the Jedi, becoming more powerful than Vader and Palpatine combined. She then seeks out the person she believed to be responsible for Vader's death, Luke Skywalker. Imperial comm chatter blames Luke for Vader's death, and Ahsoka marches forth with her fleet to avenge her master.

After capturing Kyle Katarn and Jan Ors, Ahsoka uses them as hostages, and she lures Luke into a pitched battle where Ackbar's fleet and Rogue Squadron fight against Ahsoka's fleet commanded by Rex and several Clone Wars veterans. Just as Ahsoka was gaining the upper hand in her duel with Luke, a bright flash appears; one so bright that the armies fighting on the ground and the ships fighting in space could see it. The light is so bright and the power so strong, that even the non-Force-sensitives can feel the power and they all stop fighting. It is none other than Anakin's ghost, who tells Ahsoka to let go of her hate and fear, and to embrace the true power of the Force, which is in the Light. This then confuses Ahsoka, who tells Anakin that he taught her to embrace the Dark Side. Anakin apologizes to Ahsoka for leading her astray, but now, Anakin wants her to embrace the Light Side and embrace peace, since the Dark Side is slowly killing her inside due to all the untamed, raw power in her body. When Ahsoka tells him that the Dark Side is all she has, Anakin's spirit walks her through the Jedi Code, melding minds with her and letting her feel peace for the first time in decades. Anakin tells Ahsoka that it was the Emperor's lightning that killed him, but Luke saved his soul, and he asks both Ahsoka and Rex to work with Luke, not against him. Anakin describes Luke as the embodiment of everything that was good in him, and Ahsoka, after hearing those words, begins to tear up and kneels before her Jedi opponent.

Ahsoka then calls off the attack, describing what she just saw and using that as the reason to stop fighting. Ahsoka and her fleet begin talks with the Rebels now that they know that Luke wasn't responsible for Anakin's death. After releasing Kyle and Jan to Rebel custody, Ahsoka asks Luke for forgiveness, since his actions saved the man she loved, allowing him to ascend to a level of power that even the Valley of the Jedi couldn't grant her. She offers him her lightsaber, her armies, her fleet, and her life, saying that if he so much as orders it, she will take her own life if he tells her to. Luke tells Ahsoka to rise, accepting her as his friend, not as a servant. This then begins the Rebels' transformation into the New Republic, as Ahsoka's piece of the Empire, and her allies among the Empire, are the first to defect to the Rebel side, giving them enough systems to call their own that they transition from a rebellion on the move to a legitimate state with sectors of their own, and they declare the creation of the New Republic, with Ahsoka and some reform-minded Moffs meeting together with Rebel High Command and declaring their territories to be united under this new cause.

Also, that image is really bad and inaccurate. She should be gripping them backwards, like a dildo.
And she was a good friend.
She was, indeed. At least for Kenobi.
 
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I am also of the camp Ashoka should have died with order 66. And at the very very latest she could‘ve died at the hands of Darth Vader. And that was already pushing it.

Lucas clearly just had her to add to Anakin’s tragedy. That’s why she exists.

The problem isn’t even that Ashoka is around. The issue is that Filoni wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants Ashoka to be this amazing ex-Jedi that is powerful enough to fight Anakin in his prime. She is super important and wise, and a huge force of good. Yet canon, even Disney canon, says she didn’t do anything important during the Empire, and even the First Order Era? Even Obi Wan and Yoda had the excuse of being in disgrace passing the torch to someone else.

Filoni wants her so bad to be the heroine. But she can’t be because that‘s Luke‘s role. And even Rey Sue Palpatine upstages her. Ashoka can’t be both so amazing and yet do absolutely nothing to the main threats (Empire and First Order). It makes no sense.

Still. I would be open to the idea of Ashoka being around if there was some story to tell with her. If Filoni could justify it. The Ashoka tv show was his chance to prove all naysayers that Ashoka had this amazing tale Waiting to be told. The reason he delayed her death. Finally Ashoka’s chance to be the main hero!

Maybe she had to deal with a threat equally dire as The empire? A new terrifying Villain? A secret Sith order? Maybe she stopped a war elsewhere? An evil beyond the galaxy? Nope. Turns out the man just can’t let go of his waifu.

After order 66, the only thing of relevance she has done is fighting Disney‘s Thrawn? Who by the way is, canonically, a nothing burger because Snoke is who ends up leading the empire remnants in Disney Canon?
 
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They could've done anything after TFA. It was just the intro course to get the OT fanboys who whined about Lucas back on board. They chose to profit off of SJWs, because at the time, SJWs were all the rage on Twitter, and Disney thought the average bloke thought like them.

To be fair, I've seen enough of the world to know that neither the extreme SJW left nor the Trumpist right have the people behind them. Most folks just want to be left alone and see the culture war as a background affair. It's only the keyboard warriors and college kids who really care about that shit. Instead of appealing to either side of the political aisle, Disney could've done better by handing the reins over to Michael Bay and telling him to make shit explode while having Luke kick ass., Throw in some babes in metal bikinis and you're good to go. At least that kind of shit would sell well in China and be good for a laugh State-side.
In short, fuck Disney.

TFA establishes that Luke's Jedi Order got completely killed off-screen before the film even started.

How is that a 'decent' foundation, exactly?
Tbf, people didn't see how the Jedi fell in the OT.
 
I am also of the camp Ashoka should have died with order 66. And at the very very latest she could‘ve died at the hands of Darth Vader. And that was already pushing it.

Lucas clearly just had her to add to Anakin’s tragedy. That’s why she exists.

The problem isn’t even that Ashoka is around. The issue is that Filoni wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants Ashoka to be this amazing ex-Jedi that is powerful enough to fight Anakin in his prime. She is super important and wise, and a huge force of good. Yet canon, even Disney canon, says she didn’t do anything important during the Empire, and even the First Order Era? Even Obi Wan and Yoda had the excuse of being in disgrace passing the torch to someone else.

Filoni wants her so bad to be the heroine. But she can’t be because that‘s Luke‘s role. And even Rey Sue Palpatine upstages her. Ashoka can’t be both so amazing and yet do absolutely nothing to the main threats (Empire and First Order). It makes no sense.

Still. I would be open to the idea of Ashoka being around if there was some story to tell with her. If Filoni could justify it. The Ashoka tv show was his chance to prove all naysayers that Ashoka had this amazing tale Waiting to be told. The reason he delayed her death. Finally Ashoka’s chance to be the main hero!

Maybe she had to deal with a threat equally dire as The empire? A new terrifying Villain? A secret Sith order? Maybe she stopped a war elsewhere? An evil beyond the galaxy? Nope. Turns out the man just can’t let go of his waifu Go.

After order 66, the only thing of relevance she has done is fighting Disney‘s Thrawn? Who by the way is, canonically, a nothing burger because Snoke is who ends up leading the empire remnants in Disney Canon?
That's the thing about Filoni. He doesn't even have the chops to find a niche for her to fit in between the OT and the Sequels. At least in the Prequels she fit, since there were tons of Jedi, but what the hell was she doing in between ANH and ROTJ? Why didn't Kenobi bring her up and say that Luke should train with her? Why wasn't she active with the Rebels? Best case scenario, maybe one can explain it by pulling off the same shit that happened with Boba Fett's wife in Legends; she got captured and frozen in carbonite during the OT, then pulled out of it after ROTJ. Maybe Vader captures her after Rebels, but it's around the time he finds out about his own son Luke, so he doesn't have time to torture Ahsoka and turn her to the Dark Side because he's on a race with Sidious to get to his son first so he can turn the boy to his side to overthrow the old man. Then have it so that after ROTJ, Anakin's ghost tells Luke where to find Ahsoka so that he can have an extra Jedi on hand helping the NR.

And thanks to them saying that she was alive in the ST, they'll now have to explain why she did nothing there, too. Why didn't she try to stop Kylo Ren or Snoke, Filoni would have to answer for.
 
Tbf, people didn't see how the Jedi fell in the OT.
Why would that be at all applicable to TFA? The Jedi Order shouldn't have fallen at all between Ep. IV and VII. Luke is literally given the burden of rekindling the Jedi and "passing on what he has learned" to a new generation by Yoda himself on his death-bed, and then we cut to the next episode to learn that the Order he was supposed to bring about already ended in failure before the conflict of the new films even came about.

All the potential for new characters, up and coming new heroes embarking on new journeys, new relationships, and new narrative trajectories as central players in the new story were literally snuffed out to artificially re-create the exact same stakes and setting of the prior trilogy.

That is a shit foundation for a sequel storyline meant to push the saga forward.
 
Why would that be at all applicable to TFA? The Jedi Order shouldn't have fallen at all between Ep. IV and VII. Luke is literally given the burden of rekindling the Jedi and "passing on what he has learned" to a new generation by Yoda himself on his death-bed, and then we cut to the next episode to learn that the Order he was supposed to bring about already ended in failure before the conflict of the new films even came about.

All the potential for new characters, up and coming new heroes embarking on new journeys, new relationships, and new narrative trajectories as central players in the new story were literally snuffed out to artificially re-create the exact same stakes and setting of the prior trilogy.

That is a shit foundation for a sequel storyline meant to push the saga forward.
Star Wars is literally the Sith and Jedi fighting for millennia. That's the main conflict of the story so not having that wouldn't be Star Wars. Granted they could've handled the Fall of the New Order better but I don't think it would be impossible. Remember the Jedi are scattered across the Galaxy and Luke might be the most powerful force user in the Galaxy but he's still one guy. Plus the Dark Side adepts are still technically a thing in Canon. I think some of them would try to destroy the New Order.
 
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All the potential for new characters, up and coming new heroes embarking on new journeys, new relationships, and new narrative trajectories as central players in the new story were literally snuffed out to artificially re-create the exact same stakes and setting of the prior trilogy.

That is a shit foundation for a sequel storyline meant to push the saga forward.
You're forgetting the fact that TFA was not made as a logical extension of the story after EPVI, but rather, it was made from the ground-up to appeal to OT purists and RLM fanboys who hated the Prequels, which had tons of Jedi. Disney wasn't thinking about it from the storytelling perspective, but from the corporate pandering perspective, and from their POV, you had a ton of loudmouth brats whining about how great the OT is and how bad the PT is, and the PT had tons of Jedi while the OT only had a few, and a lot of folks, especially RLM fans, complained that the PT having Jedi all over the place decreases their value, whereas the OT used Jedi sparingly. But how can you do that if Luke supposedly restored the Jedi after ROTJ?

The easy solution to that was to wipe out the Jedi again and knock them back down to OT levels, with a student learning from a master who is hidden away. All because the PT haters preferred that over having a Jedi Order. And it worked. A lot of the low-IQ PT haters, RLM and their fans included, LOVED TFA.
 
I believe Andor fans called Filoni's shows the equivalent of "playing with action figures on the big screen". I've yet to see what Filoni fans think of Andor, but a few objectors to Andor in the mainstream call it slow as fuck.
I'm definitely an Andor fan and probably one of the closest this thread has to a Filoni fan in that I am a great admirer of TCW cartoons and at least charitable to aspects of Ahsoka. I don't see it as incompatible to like both. I would rate TCW higher than Andor in that I like the grand sweep of things but Andor better in some regards that I like the more measured approach and fine detail it brings to things. The ISB scenes and Deedre are great and Syril Karn is one of my favourite and most relatable characters. The dude just wants people to think he's good at his job - that's literally all he is asking for, poor sod!

Nah, Dave could make them survive either way. The inhibitor chips were so Filoni didn't have to struggle with interesting character drama of his OCs still following the order to kill the jedi even after building relationships for them, so that Order 66 can be a blameless and clean affair where all the characters can wipe their hands clean with 'Oh, don't worry, mind control made me do it'.
Without the inhibitor chips you are going to struggle to pull off Order 66 believable because most people wont just cold-blood murder people they've literally fought alongside in war for the past four years. And if they do, then you can't have the Clones be relatable and sympathetic characters up until that point. There's no 'interesting struggle' in them deciding between the order and their friendships. You could do that for one or two with sufficient build up maybe, but to have it happen wholesale would make the clones monstrous. The brainwashing is an effective device to have your cake and eat it.

No, bringing back Darth Maul was always a stupid decision, especially in the context of FiloniWars where they had Savage. If Maul has to be used at all, he has to be a pre-TPM character setting up the pins for why the Trade Federation would risk war with the Republic like assassinating Nute Gunray's former boss or killing more hawkish senators that want to form their own private armies.
I semi agree in that bringing him back is stupid. There's no sensible good way of having the dude survive being cut in half and dropped down a power shaft. BUT... I strongly like Maul as a character, having him back helped develop interesting storylines and bring a great deal more depth to the character as we learn more about him and provide a good antagonist to Obi Wan. So to me it is a stupid that we at least get a good return on as opposed to most stupid which is just stupid and leads nowhere.

His actual final death, and also losing in battle to Ahsoka, are the greater Stupid to me, actually. Because they're stupid and just make things worth. I'll shrug and overlook the original stupid in bringing him back because they did their best to make it work anyway. When we first find him cobbling together that half-body on the junk yard planet out of his mind it's a cool scene at least and hooks us in.
Funny enough, they portrayed the ISB in Andor as somewhat competent. Dedra presents a smidge of info that points to her theory being correct, and her bosses let her have free reign, as opposed to Hera, whose bosses brush off an entire starship crew getting slaughtered by two Dark Jedi, several SSD hyperdrive cores getting stolen, and two NR pilots dying at the hands of Thrawn's agents when the hyperspace ring jumped right in front of the NR squadron. Dedra had a smidge of evidence that she was correct, and her Imperial bosses placed their faith in her. Hera had a mountain of evidence, and her New Republic bosses laugh it off as if it was nothing, and if it wasn't for that last-minute letter from Leia, she'd have lost every bit of power she had.
It's better than the ISB merely being competent. They're realistic. You still get internal politics and the potential to miss things. The way Dedre's genuine investigation is perceived by her colleagues as attempts to ladder-climb and self-glorify is spot on, in my experience. Andor makes the ISB frightening but also very believable and a source of good dramatic conflict. Dedre is a very interesting character. Her reactions to any intrusion on a personal rather than professional level, i.e. by Syril Karn, are bizarre mix of confusion and alarm. It makes you wonder what the Hell has happened to this woman that personal interaction is so disturbing to her. She appears to have no way to relate to people outside of a professional context.
I am also of the camp Ashoka should have died with order 66. And at the very very latest she could‘ve died at the hands of Darth Vader. And that was already pushing it.
I still strongly think that she should not have come back after she left the Order. It was a beautiful moment that fit in very well thematically in that she realised for her at least, the only winning move was not to play. In leaving the Order she was one of the few who actually preached what the Jedi professed - giving up attachment and accepting the will of the Force. Ultimately the downfall of the Jedi was that they were attached to this idea of their role, to the Republic, and couldn't see that its time had passed. That's ultimately why Palpatine won - he moved with the momentum of history whilst the Jedi tried to resist it. Ahsoka walking off into the sunset was a victory of a kind. Bringing her back undid it. If she must come back it should be to see her helping ordinary people or just living a good life. Not as a player on one side (or the other).
Why didn't Kenobi bring her up and say that Luke should train with her?
Kenobi's tragic flaw, and all the characters in the descending part of the storyline had one, was his loyalty to the Order. We see in TCW that on several occasions he puts his loyalty to the order above what is right. He faked his death on their orders, letting Anakin think he was dead, he warned Anakin away from involvement with Padme not because it was right but because it was Jedi doctrine. He almost certainly never believed Ahsoka was guilty but he went along with the Council's decision. Only at the very end, literally the day of Order 66, does he quietly admit to Ahsoka that "the Council isn't always right" and even then he sends Rex and others away before he'll give voice to it.

As far as Obi Wan is concerned, Ahsoka left the Order. Even in his old age with Yoda, he's still wedded to the Jedi order, lying to Luke about his father and refusing to countenance other ways. I doubt he would call up Ahsoka but anyway, could he even if he wanted to? He's dead by the time the Empire falls and she might be out of hiding.
Star Wars is literally the Sith and Jedi fighting for millennia. That's the main conflict of the story so not having that wouldn't be Star Wars.
Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the Force and frankly they missed a stonking opportunity to build on that. After the massacre there are two Sith (Palpatine and himself) and two Jedi (Yoda and Luke). Palpatine and Yoda are both mystics (or were until the PT turned them into duelling masters - dumb). He and Luke are both active, warrior types. Both sides are effectively a master and an apprentice. It's beautiful symmetry. The ST threw that out stupidly when they had a great way to build on it. Luke walks away to seek quiet building of a new Jedi order - secluded, contemplative. Leia remains in politics, choosing a path of power and influence. Have her go to the Dark side. It doesn't have to be full cackling "Unlimited Power" type any more than Luke's Jedi order has to be bouncing around fighting seperatists. Both have returned to their basic roots: Light Side forgoing attachment and improving things by living right, Dark Side by active interference and attempts to direct things. Vader's twin children become the balance to the Force. Leia was a war-leader and politician. Making her and Luke Dark and Light children of Anakin is perfect.

But no, the ST is just an attempt to redo the OT in form but without any of the understanding and most certainly without a willingness to move the story forward. And ultimately this last thing is its greatest flaw, imo.
 
Tbf, people didn't see how the Jedi fell in the OT.
Yeah but in ANH we were shown the power of the Empire before anything else. All we knew about Vader was that he was some scary possibly robot guy who could hold a grown man 2 feet off the ground with one hand and crush his throat with that one hand like it was nothing. So when Ben tells Luke about his father and the Jedi purge and all that, there was no reason to think the Empire couldn't have pulled it off. We'd already seen the Empire's overwhelming strength

We were never shown any reason to believe Crylo Ren could have Columbined the entire new Jedi academy student body and mindfucked Luke into hiding for 20+ years. Fucking normie not-Force-sensitive Finn gets a slash in on Crylo's shoulder in a lightsaber duel, and completely-untrained-didn't-even-know-she-was-Force-sensitive-until-two-weeks-ago Rey then btfos him. And we're supposed to believe he killed all the students at Luke's academy and broke Luke's brain? Ok JJ sure
 
Without the inhibitor chips you are going to struggle to pull off Order 66 believable because most people wont just cold-blood murder people they've literally fought alongside in war for the past four years. And if they do, then you can't have the Clones be relatable and sympathetic characters up until that point. There's no 'interesting struggle' in them deciding between the order and their friendships. You could do that for one or two with sufficient build up maybe, but to have it happen wholesale would make the clones monstrous. The brainwashing is an effective device to have your cake and eat it.
Well, yeah, if you spend all the time in the story throwing out nuance and just mashing your action figures together while refusing to develop their dynamics beyond 'We're BFFs, but sometimes war is sad ;(' you're going to struggle to showcase actually conflict. Thankfully, most writers who'd want to tell that sought of story would take time building up reasons why characters who were born for war would choose their duty to the republic that they've spent their whole life fighting for under the guise of 'The greater good', and highlight possible tensions between jedi and clones that get exasperated by the war, rather than go for the lazy cop-out of 'it's just mind control guys'.
 
All the potential for new characters, up and coming new heroes embarking on new journeys, new relationships, and new narrative trajectories as central players in the new story were literally snuffed out to artificially re-create the exact same stakes and setting of the prior trilogy.
Forget the story telling opportunities, think of all the lost merchandise licensing revenue from not having four or five cool new characters that you could base your new trilogy on. Make these new characters appealing to the 5-13 year old demographic and you'd be selling toys out the ass to them while also selling black figure series of the OT characters to the manchild collectors. But no, instead we get stacks six feet high of Rose Tico action figures marked down for a dollar at Wal*Mart. Even in the late 90s the Bib Fortuna action figures sold better. I'm not even jewish and I can do a better job of creating revenue than every kike at disney at this point.
 
Forget the story telling opportunities, think of all the lost merchandise licensing revenue from not having four or five cool new characters that you could base your new trilogy on. Make these new characters appealing to the 5-13 year old demographic and you'd be selling toys out the ass to them while also selling black figure series of the OT characters to the manchild collectors. But no, instead we get stacks six feet high of Rose Tico action figures marked down for a dollar at Wal*Mart. Even in the late 90s the Bib Fortuna action figures sold better. I'm not even jewish and I can do a better job of creating revenue than every kike at disney at this point.

But they created a silver female Storm Trooper from that character the kids loved from Game of Thrones....
 
Yeah but in ANH we were shown the power of the Empire before anything else. All we knew about Vader was that he was some scary possibly robot guy who could hold a grown man 2 feet off the ground with one hand and crush his throat with that one hand like it was nothing. So when Ben tells Luke about his father and the Jedi purge and all that, there was no reason to think the Empire couldn't have pulled it off. We'd already seen the Empire's overwhelming strength

We were never shown any reason to believe Crylo Ren could have Columbined the entire new Jedi academy student body and mindfucked Luke into hiding for 20+ years. Fucking normie not-Force-sensitive Finn gets a slash in on Crylo's shoulder in a lightsaber duel, and completely-untrained-didn't-even-know-she-was-Force-sensitive-until-two-weeks-ago Rey then btfos him. And we're supposed to believe he killed all the students at Luke's academy and broke Luke's brain? Ok JJ sure
Well, to be fair, Vader back in the OT was implied by Kenobi to have Columbined the entire Jedi Order with the Empire's help, and in ANH, he was barely able to put up a fight against Kenobi, an old man. (look at Vader's stance before he strikes down Kenobi; he's barely keeping it up) It was basically made as a shot-by-shot copy of the original, without the charm. As for Rey, she was basically KK's self-insert sue, so she was basically Galen Marek with tits at that point, pulling in lightsabers with barely any training. That, and they implied Kylo Ren's power by having him freeze blaster bolts in mid-air, something no Jedi up to that point had been able to do.

Again, TFA was nostalgia bait for RLM fanboys and OT purists that hated everything Star Wars did from 1999 onwards. And yes, once again, most normies, including a large number of PT haters, loved TFA and called it a ''return to form'' while condemning the PT as trash.
 
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Well, to be fair, Vader back in the OT was implied by Kenobi to have Columbined the entire Jedi Order with the Empire's help, and in ANH, he was barely able to put up a fight against Kenobi, an old man. (look at Vader's stance before he strikes down Kenobi; he's barely keeping it up) It was basically made as a shot-by-shot copy of the original, without the charm. As for Rey, she was basically KK's self-insert sue, so she was basically Galen Marek with tits at that point, pulling in lightsabers with barely any training. That, and they implied Kylo Ren's power by having him freeze blaster bolts in mid-air, something no Jedi up to that point had been able to do.

Again, TFA was nostalgia bait for RLM fanboys and OT purists that hated everything Star Wars did from 1999 onwards. And yes, once again, most normies, including a large number of PT haters, loved TFA and called it a ''return to form'' while condemning the PT as trash.
Sigh

The Kenobi-Vader duel isn't germane. It happened later in the film. Vader and the Empire were instantly established as powerful in the first scene of ANH is the point. Crylo Ren and the First Order in TFA were tell don't show writing. What we were shown in the first ten minutes of TFA is Crylo gets shitposted to his face by Poe Dameron and he gets away with it. Completely the opposite of what we were being told, that Crylo was a powerful scary villain. And yes, Leia insults Vader (and Tarkin later), but she makes it clear that they are evil assholes to her and she hates them and fears them a little bit too. Poe just mocks Crylo like the situation is completely unserious

Vader and the Empire in ANH were show don't tell writing. What we were shown in the first ten minutes of ANH is that Vader and the Empire are scary and powerful. They aren't involved in any levity. That's all I was doing, comparing the way the characters are established in their debut scenes

Contradictory writing doesn't help either. Crylo Ren can stop blaster bolts with the Force but Finn gets a slash in on his shoulder and Rey btfos him. Extremely contradictory

The PT is trash, get over it. It's not all trash all the time, but TPM is like 65% trash, AotC is like 85% trash, and RotS is actually an okay movie. It works out as a whole to like 60% trash

And I'm sure Rich Evans enjoyed reading post-1999 EU stuff while sitting in many endocrinology department waiting rooms for his beetus appointments
 
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@draggs
They did the same thing with the First Order, establishing them as powerful and showing how they've got the firepower and the naval power to match the Empire of old back in the OT. Poe gave Kylo shit, but if it wasn't for Finn going rogue and rescuing him, he'd be dead. Just as Leia gave Tarkin shit, and would've probably been disposed of if it wasn't for Han and the crew rescuing her. We even see Kylo stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air to show off how powerful he was. And again, yes, Kylo was shown to be a narrow-minded wimp when he gets hurt by a random mook and gets beaten by a noob, but in ANH, Vader was barely holding it together fighting an old man whose physical form meant so little to him that he lets Vader kill him.

Vader winning the duel on the Death Star isn't a symbol of his power; it's a show of how his ignorant ass was blind to the greater mysteries of the Force, and how little he mattered to the old fart whom he was fighting. Kenobi was so above him, to the point where the old man didn't even want to dignify him with a duel to the death. Kenobi letting Vader kill him was basically the old man telling Vader "you ain't shit. Come on, make me stronger!" It wasn't until ESB did they pump Vader up and make him a legit powerhouse where he gives Luke a run for his money. In ANH, Vader was sidelined left and right; some random princess gives him lip, people make fun of his religion, Tarkin has to hold his leash like he's some kind of wild dog, and the only place where he was undisputed was in his dogfighting, and that was because the Rebels were too busy trying to make bombing runs. Vader then gets blindsided by some punk who owes debts to the space mafia, and that causes him to lose the battle.

Dude, did you even watch ANH? The whole movie is one humiliation conga line for Vader. His plan of letting the rebels get to their base so that the Empire can destroy them failed horribly, his old master whom he wanted revenge on didn't even see him as a worthy opponent, people openly insulted him and his religion to his face and questioned his effectiveness, and to top it all off, some moron flying in a literal piece of junk robs him of the one solid victory he could've won in the entire film. It wasn't until ESB did he get time to shine, only for ROTJ to make him someone else's bottom bitch again.

Again, the same thing happened between the Empire and the First Order; they're shown as bad guys, not told, they massacre innocent people, they have big warships flying around, and they have a superweapon that wipes out entire worlds. It is a step-by-step recreation of ANH, to the point where Lucas complained how unoriginal it was. And again, TFA was made for the PT haters, and they loved it and supported Disney all the way. There's a reason why almost everything Disney did was one big fat ripoff of ANH; their first movie was ANH for millennials, their second movie was a direct prequel to ANH, and their first cartoon was a build-up to ANH, to the point where they shelved TCW instead of letting them finish, only coming back to finish it once their Sequels blew up in their face. It's because 90% of the talk around Star Wars is "PT IS TRASH, OT IS BETTER!" so no shit, the soulless corporate entity tried to appease the masses of filthy dimwits in the internet by making everything around ANH.

And speaking of Lucas, again, the PT is not trash. It's not some kind of Coppola-level masterpiece, but the first two PT movies were just decent films with some nice visuals, fights, and some interesting worldbuilding on the side, which kind of explains why the world in ANH is like that. But at worst, they were just fun boom-fiestas with some baby-mama drama that holds it back. The politics is easy enough to understand from a grade-school level, the fights were beautifully done, the CGI battles were nice for the time, and ROTS is actually as good as ESB and surpasses ROTJ in terms of quality.

Especially since ROTJ was the beginning of Lucas just falling asleep on the wheel, what with him dropping plot points like Vader's original plan to upstage the Emperor, as well as making his big bad evil force lose to teddy bears and a rag-tag fleet that the Imperial fleet outnumbered by a large margin. Even if you take the Death Star out of the picture, the Rebel fleet should've been curb-stomped by the Imperial fleet in an open fight. Zahn literally had to invent Battle Meditation to explain that plot hole as to why the Imps lost despite having every advantage on Endor handed to them on a silver platter.

And the funny thing is, Lucas actually tried to fix his mistakes in ROTJ when he made the PT; in TPM, the scrappy underdog native Gungan army loses to the more organized Trade Federation Droid army, because realistically, that's what should've happened to the Ewoks when they fought the Empire, and the Trade Federation fleet goes kaput when their flagship goes up in smoke because the flagship was their control ship; without that, all their ships and their armies go numb. Pretty much, people act like the PT was some massive drop in quality when the drop began with ROTJ and Lucas rushing things to the finish line that he forgets plot points that he planted in ESB.

Again, it's people like you who whine about how the Prequels were trash that led to Lucas selling the farm to Disney. And people like you deserve Disney Star Wars because you couldn't just leave well enough alone. You have to act like some mediocre movies were trash when they're just mediocre at best, not bad. Lucas was content to just let Filoni and the EU authors handle Star Wars while he went off doing other shit, but you people just could not shut the fuck up about how the Prequels were trash and how Lucas was bad, so of course, the man got pissy and sold the farm to Disney, which at the time, was making movies that people wanted, and this was before the SJW fad took off, so Disney movies were just basically Michael Bay with no swearing.
 
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