Tabletop Community Watch

[Kofi Drinka]

"Cheap armies" is true, as mentioned in my previous post about a recent AMA. It's just hard to get curious non wargamers (one of their target demographics) to see that. Dollar per in game points is great, dollar per plastic is either on par with GW, slightly better, or slightly worse depending on which unit and whether or not you're getting some kind of discount from a multi box set or bundle.

It sounds like they're going for the Warmachine/Malifaux model where you have smaller forces but more expensive than GW models on average. While a space marine was £1, a Trencher would be £2s each. But you needed 10 Trenchers and not 50 of them to make up your army. Which was fine back in the day when models were relatively cheap, but with current GW costs it's no longer cheap. Paying £20 a unit and £10 a character did make those games cheaper but we're not paying that now. It's £200 for the starter box, £100 for a faction starter (Warmachines were 30).

You can buy a PS4 for that much money. You can buy multiple triple A games on a modern system (I don't know why you would). For £200 I could build almost any game, plus terrain, plus transport outside of a GW game.

Who is this for? Who has £200 to drop on a board game like this and considers it cheap because it's not GW? Despite GW models having value as something you can easily find players for.

Maybe I'm just old and tight fisted. But any time someone says "It's cheap compared to GW" I hear "being kicked in the balls is better than being shot in the face." It's an insane amount of money to be spending on toy soldiers. We have plenty of proof cheap, mass produced plastics are a viable business model. From Victrix to Oathmark to WGA to GBto Perry. Plenty of cheap, nicely designed game pieces exist at a reasonable price point. Why is no one seeing that's where a lot of money in and aiming their games at that level? If you need 60+ models a side, make the models cost £1 each. Not £5-10 because your investors see GW as the market and think they can compete based on IP alone. Star craft isn't even a big IP any more. It's been dormant for years and a WOW pony earns more than the entire series did.

 

[p1138]

I guess that means that stores won't push Starcraft very hard nor carry a lot of inventory. So what do YOU (and not those faggot leafs) think that will mean? the game dies on launch because of no FLGS pushing it?

I think they might be right. Troon crusade is a mess and figured out late that at least in North America they need a retail presence. OPR seems to have taken even longer to realize this but did so before troon crusade who is run by idiots too stupid to look at what the rest of the industry is doing. The online sales thing may work in euro countries where wargaming clubs exist but that isn't the case here.

Dies at launch? Probably not because it's got a strong member berries IP behind it. But dies a slow boring death within a couple of years if archon doesn't get their pricing sorted so retailers actually have an incentive to bother with the product range? Absolutely. It would seem that even a retailer who does consider a very low margin after overhead would still have a reason to be hesitant because they've got little to no room to incentivize buyers into being interested beyond the initial rush.

But this also isn't new with archon either since their shipping prices for consumers is laughable. $39 shipping cost until you hit an order of $150? That's fine for the initial bundles since it would be free shipping but for the later product waves that turns a $50 box into a $90 box with no North American distribution.

Edit: and I specifically meant strong member berries IP, not an IP that's actually been worth a shit for over a decade at this point.

 

[Brubby Two]

Despite GW models having value as something you can easily find players for.

I think this is the real issue, no matter how they price things there is no community for it yet and they cant assume one will just spring up from the grass. That being said, there is a distinct difference between asking 200-350 dollars for one full sized army, when the equivalent in GW's systems is 600-900+ depending on faction. That's a substantial difference. I agree that in general the prices are absurd regardless, but to deny one isn't considerably cheaper than the other isn't accurate.

But if no community forms then ultimately that's all irrelevant.

 

[p1138]

I think this is the real issue, no matter how they price things there is no community for it yet and they cant assume one will just spring up from the grass. That being said, there is a distinct difference between asking 200-350 dollars for one full sized army, when the equivalent in GW's systems is 600-900+ depending on faction. That's a substantial difference. I agree that in general the prices are absurd regardless, but to deny one isn't considerably cheaper than the other isn't accurate. But if no community forms then ultimately that's all irrelevant.

In the case of troon crusade it's a little worse when comparing that to something like kill team. Your right about a larger game like warmachine but even then that's still a small game in terms of model count. A better comparison to that would be a 1000 point game of 40k or AoS which would bring it closer to that pricing(a lot of armies can be built at 1000 points if built around the various bundle boxes and hit 350-400).

Edit: there was something else in the video that I remembered I left out of the summary(this is why I like the perspective of an actual retailer at times). Harder & Steenbeck(airbrush company) pulled some shit when they launched their new product range with super low margins to make up for investment quicker on the front end, but eventually brought the costs down so retailers could actually make some money. Archon could be doing this as well but the problem is that an airbrush that is good can sit on a shelf and be sold whenever, a model range for a game if interest has already died off is just a waste of time.

 

[Brubby Two]

a lot of armies can be built at 1000 points if built around the various bundle boxes and hit 350-400

10th in my opinion does not become a satisfying experience with active player choices until 1500+ points. The designers ideal target is 2k clearly. (I know we've had this conversation before yadda yadda). The prices i'm quoting in the above post are for "2k" points in Starcraft's system, which it's being designed and actively balanced for.

Edit: and I specifically meant strong member berries IP, not an IP that's actually been worth a shit for over a decade at this point.

There's plans for a SC third person shooter that will be announced come Blizzcon. Likely to cross pollinate with the cowadooty playerbase. WoW is killing addons and made a one button rotation system for controllers so this is a general direction they are moving in for console minded consumers.

 

[p1138]

10th in my opinion does not become a satisfying experience with active player choices until 1500+ points. The designers ideal target is 2k clearly. (I know we've had this conversation before yadda yadda). The prices i'm quoting in the above post are for "2k" points in Starcraft's system, which it's being designed and actively balanced for.

Certainly, but warmachine can also be played at higher model counts. Personally I'm not interested in an "army game" that consists of 15-20 models as that's barely more than a skirmish game in my opinion. I think SW legion also recently in addition to their skirmish rules(because of shatter point failing) also mentioned a rule set for large army sizes recently.

There's plans for a SC third person shooter that will be announced come Blizzcon. Likely to cross pollinate with the cowadooty playerbase. WoW is killing addons and made a one button rotation system for controllers so this is a general direction they are moving in for console minded consumers

Yeah the WoW thing is kinda pathetic, but the SC shooter isn't surprising as they've tried off and on to make a shooter spin off for decades now. Doesn't mean it'll be a success though. The member berries part of the StarCraft IP at this point is a continually aging audience. No one under 30 has any reason to give a shit about a StarCraft shooter.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

I think this is the real issue, no matter how they price things there is no community for it yet and they cant assume one will just spring up from the grass. That being said, there is a distinct difference between asking 200-350 dollars for one full sized army, when the equivalent in GW's systems is 600-900+ depending on faction. That's a substantial difference. I agree that in general the prices are absurd regardless, but to deny one isn't considerably cheaper than the other isn't accurate.

But if no community forms then ultimately that's all irrelevant.

I don't play GW so I don't know exact army costs. You can get 2 boxes of horus heresey starter for £350 and that should take you to 2k from what I could see. And by the time you're done building both sides I think it's in a similar price range. Assuming you do need to build to SC armies because no one else is playing it.

Edit: there was something else in the video that I remembered I left out of the summary(this is why I like the perspective of an actual retailer at times). Harder & Steenbeck(airbrush company) pulled some shit when they launched their new product range with super low margins to make up for investment quicker on the front end, but eventually brought the costs down so retailers could actually make some money. Archon could be doing this as well but the problem is that an airbrush that is good can sit on a shelf and be sold whenever, a model range for a game if interest has already died off is just a waste of time.

There's no money in kickstarted games any way. The biggest whales already bought what they wanted and the stores get the dregs months later. We saw it with the dark souls board game and nothing has changed since.

 

[Brubby Two]

I'm not interested in an "army game" that consists of 15-20 models

For Toss yeah 25ish since they're the hyper elite equiv. Terran, closer to 32+ on average, Zerg 50+

For fun here's some sample lists to demonstrate from the app.

 

[p1138]

For Toss yeah 25ish since they're the hyper elite equiv. Terran, closer to 32+ on average, Zerg 50+

I was referring to warmachine with that statement, but 30 models still isn't many. Thats an equivalent of custodes in 40k. I guess an important difference with StarCraft is how the resource/reinforcement mechanic works out because that could mean bringing back dead units effectively increasing the volume of models used in a single game in a way. 50 models for a zerg army even sounds laughable when horde armies in other games could be 100-200 models. Small scale games(which StarCraft sounds like) just aren't super appealing to everyone, especially when to get any real list diversity you've got to wait for another years worth of releases.

 

[Brubby Two]

I was referring to warmachine with that statement, but 30 models still isn't many.

Yes this is just to show you what it looks like

50 models for a zerg army even sounds laughable when horde armies in other games could be 100-200 models

You can go much higher if your goal is to spam lings, which would be the boy/gaunt/guardsmen equiv. But not every zerg army is going to want to drown the table in them.

 

[p1138]

Yes this is just to show you what it looks like

You can go much higher if your goal is to spam lings, which would be the boy/gaunt/guardsmen equiv. But not every zerg army is going to want to drown the table in them.

Sure, but what also happens over time as additional units come out and you have something to play besides spamming 5 or 6 units of marines?


Either that just drops the model count even further, or the points costs have to get lowered/the point cap increased just to retain a similar model count.

 

[Kharash]

Sure, but what also happens over time as additional units come out and you have something to play besides spamming 5 or 6 units of marines?
View attachment 8691373

Either that just drops the model count even further, or the points costs have to get lowered/the point cap increased just to retain a similar model count.

Why is every livestream for this game just this boomer and his twink boytoy?
Weird marketing strategy if you ask me.

 

[Brubby Two]

Either that just drops the model count even further, or the points costs have to get lowered/the point cap increased just to retain a similar model count.

Most Terran lists I see people make are 4 Goliaths and then whatever else they can fit in. My example list was fairly conservative at 4 MSU marine squads and already incorporated 2 goliaths, and could have easily been more marines had they been reinforced since the game discounts larger units - or if left out the extra medic squad. There's absolutely going to be siege tank spam lists but the way the pseudo force org system works makes it hard to take both those and the Goliaths, so they're more likely to be the things subbed out. That doesn't mean you cant make a mechanized list that's very low model count, but you will still want to fill out your core slots just because the system makes that the path of least resistance.

To further clarify the force org in a nut shell: 10% of your minerals is gas, gas buys cards, your sub faction + the cards you buy determines your force org slots. Cards also double as MTG lands for powering unit abilities, or tapping for their own abilities.

 

[Ghostse]

I think they might be right. Troon crusade is a mess and figured out late that at least in North America they need a retail presence. OPR seems to have taken even longer to realize this but did so before troon crusade who is run by idiots too stupid to look at what the rest of the industry is doing. The online sales thing may work in euro countries where wargaming clubs exist but that isn't the case here.

So you just think they're too deep into the Euro meta and it'll kill their hopes of getting a strong foothold?

But this also isn't new with archon either since their shipping prices for consumers is laughable. $39 shipping cost until you hit an order of $150? That's fine for the initial bundles since it would be free shipping but for the later product waves that turns a $50 box into a $90 box with no North American distribution.

Yeah that sounds like a deathknell especially since I see they have a pretty deep road map planned out

not an IP that's actually been worth a shit for over a decade at this point.

Harsh but fair

But not every zerg army is going to want to drown the table in them

I don't understand.

 

[iceteayo]

The fact it has no culture war behind it is one of those things that shocks me the most. Everyone who plays it loves the ultra-masculinity about it, yet there is no wokeist outrage about it. Consider, that this game also portrays the space marines as the heroes of the story and not the “heroes” leftists try to say they are with muh satire and muh media literacy.

40k is unironically untouchable sometimes. The biggest leftist troons will still have a soft spot for it because here’s one thing about 40k you can just ignore the things you don’t like

Leftists ignore the things they don’t like in 40k like a chud ignoring nu lore its such an odd situation that only happens in Warhammer

 

[Brubby Two]

Why is every livestream for this game just this boomer and his twink boytoy?
Weird marketing strategy if you ask me.

 

[Ghostse]

View attachment 8691579

Pictured: The least faggy members of the TranchCrusade discord.

 

[p1138]

I don't understand.

With tyranids there's basically 2 major archetypes for lists, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think the same would apply to zerg. Spam(the units of smaller models) and monster mash(taking a bunch of big shit). Like a guard player taking a bunch of troops, or instead taking a bunch of tanks. Of course with a release list so limited, it isn't like zerg players are going to have much choice in the matter.

So you just think they're too deep into the Euro meta and it'll kill their hopes of getting a strong foothold?

No, because as is most of the european miniatures companies are aware of this, and I'm not even sure if the wargaming club thing is a big deal outside of the UK. It could very well simply be that they want to recoup their costs as quickly as possible with no consideration of what that actually means for the game and the support of it going forward. Which really just amounts to once again a miniature company shooting themselves in the foot while GW continues to do nothing and see success.

There's no money in kickstarted games any way. The biggest whales already bought what they wanted and the stores get the dregs months later. We saw it with the dark souls board game and nothing has changed sinc

Kofi Drinka mentioned kickstarter, and the Starcraft game wasn't kickstarted however they're strangely treating it similarly with whales buying 3 player all-in bundle for $670. Just like kickstarter, that's a bunch of people with a ton of product that have no reason to buy anything from the initial waves at retail.

Something else I noticed about this game... the fucking mat size. Apparently it's 54"x36" or 137x91cm. They could have just made the shit 48"x48", 48"x36" or whatever other common sizes. But no, they went with 4.5 feet by 3 feet for seemingly no fucking reason other than making sure people need to buy another mat or just tape off the unused areas on their existing mats. It doesn't make any sense in metric measurements either, because even though 150x100cm mats aren't a thing, at least that would still be a number that makes sense. Of course they sell the 54"x36" mat and can use that as another revenue source. Not even GW did that shit when they decided 40k and aos needed to be 60"x44".

 

[Sunflower Samurai]

Pictured: The least faggy members of the TranchCrusade discord.

Lets be fair to Humongous' men, they're probably less rapey than the average reddit soyboy

 

[Brubby Two]

it isn't like zerg players are going to have much choice in the matter.

Roach spam (2 variants and vanilla exist before upgrades), Hydras, and Queens are all pretty strong. You're gonna want at least 1 squad of lings in most lists but you're by no means forced to take them even with only wave 1 models available. The starter box coming with 24 of them does certainly nudge you in that direction from the start I admit.

Apparently it's 54"x36" or 137x91cm. They could have just made the shit 48"x48", 48"x36" or whatever other common sizes. But no, they went with 4.5 feet by 3 feet for seemingly no fucking reason other than making sure people need to buy another mat or just tape off the unused areas on their existing mats.

1v1 box comes with the terrain set, which comes with a mat. So it's not that terrible. The solo terrain set also has it. It's not an exceptionally high quality mat, but it being in the best starter kit of the entire range means pretty much everyone will have one. It's worth mentioning 1k, 2k and 3k+ are all different sizes for table dimensions.

I agree it would have been better to stick with something more traditional. Bad enough when GW changes table sizes.