Tabletop Community Watch

[Ghostse]

With tyranids there's basically 2 major archetypes for lists, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to think the same would apply to zerg. Spam(the units of smaller models) and monster mash(taking a bunch of big shit). Like a guard player taking a bunch of troops, or instead taking a bunch of tanks. Of course with a release list so limited, it isn't like zerg players are going to have much choice in the matter.

That is a joke. The joke being that Zergs are most known for unit spam so ironically askign why you'd play in any style that wasn't zergrush kekekekekek ^__________________^

 

[Kofi Drinka]

Kofi Drinka mentioned kickstarter, and the Starcraft game wasn't kickstarted however they're strangely treating it similarly with whales buying 3 player all-in bundle for $670. Just like kickstarter, that's a bunch of people with a ton of product that have no reason to buy anything from the initial waves at retail.

Kickstarter, direct sales. Call it what you want it's the same problem. If you run an online campaign with deep discounts and pre-orders before a store has access to any of it, you just completely killed the market. All the demand is being met before it even hits store shelves. If you make a couple of million online direct sales, that's a couple of million taken directly from shop owners. It's been a consistent problem since the kickstarter format took off. Shops have no reason to support a game with a big online pre-order like this no matter the profit margins, the creams already been scooped off the top.



Mantic have an interesting strategy to get money direct while not undercutting the stores. They have started releasing 3D print STLs to upgrade boxsets they sell. The new army has ogre sized dog men, so they released a set of heads for them to convert. All the old boxes that were basic sprues and resin parts have been replaced with 3d prints of the resin parts. The old PVC character models and ambush exclusive characters (way over priced) got turned into STLs as well. It seems a good way to take a lot of pressure off of the amount of things you need to stock. If you have the core army boxes in stock you have everything someone needs at retail. Then they can order the bits from a printer or print them themselves. It seems like the best of both worlds. And if you don't want to deal with 3D printing conversions always work. There's enough kits in the right scale (Oathmark style chunky) to fit the arms to the bodies to fill in any gaps.

 

[Flexo]

What the fuck are you talking about?

It's that time of the month for him, he's just in a mood.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

Avatars of war have a kickerstarter for their new plastic Stone Trolls. They used to be the company that sold really nice Warhammer champion models, but 3D printing and their branching out is making them a real competitor in the cheaper plastics space. I would say they design the ogre sized models you need for your army, so you buy Oathmark rank and file, then you get AOW trolls and monsters. I would keep my eye on them as they're the most promising company coming up in the plastic fantasy space.

 

[p1138]

I feel like Jarek, the guy that owns Archon games, can go fuck himself with a salted cactus.

He was behind the old AvP game that still hasn't fulfilled kickstarters half a decade after their license expired. So he changed the company name and launched archon.

When him and Rob Baer tried to hype off his (wildly out of scale) not krieg models, I pointed out they intentionally left off *all* the detail bits to try to make Jareks shit look better. When he saw this he personally DMed me to rant and rave and threaten me (ironically something Rob Baer has also done)

Fuck him (and fuck Rob baer)

@Kantreal_pattern_lasgun Replying here because the shit doesn't have anything to do with 40k, but looked it up and saw that Jarek was the majority owner for Prodos and shut it down before fulfilling kickstarters for the AvP game. Fuck that company.

 

[Brubby Two]

Jarek was the majority owner for Prodos and shut it down before fulfilling kickstarters for the AvP game. Fuck that company.

Yes and you can clearly tell whenever their studio does something new there is a surge of incredibly forced "how do you do fellow kids" stealth marketing threads which may as well be from Jarek himself. About half a year ago there was some euro playtester with a vendetta from past projects posting in every thread mocking him. The failures on pricing, communication, and infrastructure are par for the course here.

I'm only in it because I like the game system and the minis. I wouldnt mind a WC3 style game in this system either. The prismacast terrain they do for their DnD product line is also very novel. Outside that I can't say many good things about the studio themselves.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

As someone who was actually in the TTRPG design space. And now, technically, when the games I worked on got published, everyone in it is a self aggrandizing Dick bag and a backstabbing faggot. Actually one of the guys literally who stabbed me in the back actually was a fag, so.
The joke's on him. That guy fucking sucks at marketing and couldn't get a collaboration with a TTRPG Youtube to save his fucking life. Also, the name they picked for the system eventually was stupid.

 

[Ghostse]

@Kantreal_pattern_lasgun Replying here because the shit doesn't have anything to do with 40k, but looked it up and saw that Jarek was the majority owner for Prodos and shut it down before fulfilling kickstarters for the AvP game. Fuck that company.

This is really good information given the Star Craft push that is happening. Thanks for sharing that over here.

 

[p1138]

This is really good information given the Star Craft push that is happening. Thanks for sharing that over here.

Yeah it's also worth getting more eyeballs on in general because of the historical faggotry of the guy running this company. At least with the WGA bullshit with the previous screwing of customers it was because the guy running things got fucked by some chinese bugmen. With this, dude didn't go into hiding, didn't make shit right for customers a decade later, etc. He's just a shitbag.

Also I finally took at look at the rules because I was curious about tabletop model/unit counts and the resupply mechanic regarding actual army size on the table. Missions are 6-8 supply cap in the table at once. Heroes are 1 supply, units of zerglings and space marines are 2 supply, and some 1 supply support units. Can only bring 2 units from reserve per turn, can't ever exceed that 6-8 supply cap. So that really just ends up meaning you're only going to have 4-5 units on the table at a given time. That's less than SW Legion which is already light on the model count. If I wanted to play a physical miniature wargame to not have models on the table, I could just play GSC in 40k.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

This industry has like 10 people in it total. And all of them have run kickstarter scams and tried to get back into the industry. It's annoying as fuck

 

[Brubby Two]

can't ever exceed that 6-8 supply cap

The cap goes up every round by a set number dictated by the mission, with the final turn being infinite supply- you get penalized via giving the enemy vp for leaving your dudes in reserves till the very end of the game without ever deploying them at all. The difference here being if you get tabled in the first round somehow, you get to bring the rest of your army out immediately, because not only did the cap creep up, your number of supply being in use also dropped to 0 and can now be filled back to the new cap with what you have left in reserve.

Marines and Lings are also not supply 2 as a unit by default, they are when you reinforce the squad with extra models. Both of those at their default sizes are supply 1.

The only units with greater than 1 supply by default are

• Zealots (2)
• Praetor Guard Zealots (2)
• Goliaths (2)
• Hydras (2-3)

The webapp is completely free and has all the rules//data cards built in if you want to poke around - I think the UI sucks still but i'm sure that could change in time

https://starcrafttmgbeta.web.app/

Yeah it's also worth getting more eyeballs on in general because of the historical faggotry of the guy running this company

Agreed

 

[p1138]

The cap goes up every round by a set number dictated by the mission, with the final turn being infinite supply- you get penalized via giving the enemy vp for leaving your dudes in reserves till the very end of the game without ever deploying them at all. .

Sure would be nice if their rules website wasn't shit, and when you hit the export PDF you just get a popup about the PDF functionality being in development. How do you fuck up the presentation of rules? Well they figured out how.

Marines and Lings are also not supply 2 as a unit by default, they are when you reinforce the squad with extra models. Both of those at their default sizes are supply 1.

Except they are supply 2. I don't care what their minimum value is, I want to know the maximum value. I don't answer how many guardsmen or ork boys go into a unit with "10" I answer with 10/20. So even with re-reading how the supply works, I'm still only starting the game with 4-5 units, I guess maybe 6 if I want to run min units for some reason. Even then after that I'm still only adding a unit at a time with the supply cap going from 6-8 or 8-10. This is fewer activations of units within a single round than some skirmish games.

The webapp has all the rules and data cards built in and is completely free if you want to poke around - I think the UI sucks still but i'm sure that could change in time

Yeah, it does suck. But when your game launches this is the thing players look at for information, it needs to not suck from the get-go. You only screenshot part of the page. This is what this stupid page actually looks like.

Why there's no part 1 in the menu? Who knows, but it looks dumb. You can't even hit enter in the search box and get a proper results page.

The difference here being if you get tabled in the first round somehow, you get to bring the rest of your army out immediately, because not only did the cap creep, your number of supply being in use dropped to 0 and can now be filled back to the new cap with what you have left in reserve.

Fine, the supply system is slightly less shit than my initial glance at it. It's still causing tiny amounts of units on the table. Being able to dump unlimited number of units from reserve in the last round is only meaningful if I haven't been having units getting killed off, which means I was already likely in a winning position to begin with. If you're playing on the backfoot you're likely going to have less available than the player who has been losing fewer units the whole time? That sounds awful. If there is a risk of getting tabled in the first round and it's not due to a fuck up on your own part, the game is shit if things can be decided that quickly regardless of reserves. Not even 40k has that without a player having 2 digit IQ.

Congratulations, I dislike this game even more now. It sounds even more awful in addition to the company being run by a piece of shit.

 

[Brubby Two]

Congratulations, I dislike this game even more now.

That's fine, just trying to help you understand how it works.

Being able to dump unlimited number of units from reserve in the last round is only meaningful if I haven't been having units getting killed off

as explained - you get penalized if you have everything left sitting in there so it's to prevent that from happening in niche situations

If there is a risk of getting tabled in the first round and it's not due to a fuck up on your own part, the game is shit if things can be decided that quickly regardless of reserves

A hypothetical tabling to start, and if you were able to table someone in round one and it had no effect on the greater outcome of the game that would be silly too. You dont wait till the final round to dump everything else, you just keep setting up units in round 2 till your new supply cap value is filled again

Except they are supply 2. I don't care what their minimum value is, I want to know the maximum value.

Brother huh - what. I'm just giving you full context because your statement implied you didn't understand. It's also not 10-20 in all cases. Lings is 12 and 18, marines 6 and 9, and the mineral cost isn't linear. Hell, swarmlings which are a ling variant are 18 models but supply 1.

We're not arguing, relax bro.

 

[p1138]

Brother huh - what. I'm just giving you full context because your statement implied you didn't understand. It also not 10-20 in all cases. Lings is 12 and 18, marines 6 and 9, and the mineral cost isn't linear. Hell, swarmlings which are a ling variant are 18 models but supply 1.

I said guardsman and orks 10/20. I know space marines in the game don't come in units of 10 or 20. However, you want to say that the marines coming in a block of 9 at supply 2 isn't the default or whatever, but then

Hydras (2-3)

So you can point out that a full unit of hydras can cost 3 supply, but I'm wrong if I point out a full unit of marines can cost 2? And that also made me realize something odd about the starting units available for the game... someone wanting to play a bunch of big monsters with zerg(that don't exist yet) as some sort of kaiju list I get, but hydras aren't that and allow zerg to run a more elite army than terrans and protoss? wtf? 6 supply for 2 units/8 models for zerg. I guess protoss stalkers would only have 6 models for 6 supply but at least still be 3 units.

 

[Brubby Two]

I know space marines in the game don't come in units of 10 or 20

Yeah I'm pointing out that a reinforce isn't always double the squad, mineral cost, or supply value. It varies. Even the "wargear" enhancements vary with some getting cheaper when reinforced or never changing cost at all

So you can point out that a full unit of hydras can cost 3 supply, but I'm wrong if I point out a full unit of marines can cost 2?

a min unit is 2 models and 2 supply, a full unit is 3 supply and 4 models. If I only told you the max value you wouldn't know the min squad value immediately. You get a supply discount by reinforcing in addition to a mineral cost reduction. For Hydras you literally do double the number of models unlike other unit reinforces, same goes for Marauders who also double their model count. You also do not have infinite core//elite//hero//supply slots so even if you take the discounted mineral cost for equivalent number of guys in some cases, you're still paying for it in supply which is force org slots. That 1 extra supply you tacked on reinforcing a marine squad could have been 3 extra bodies if it was a MSU. There's also other things to factor like action economy and the "pass" system to gain first activation in later phases.

I guess protoss stalkers would only have 6 models for 6 supply but at least still be 3 units.

They are. 1 supply solo 2 supply reinforced

someone wanting to play a bunch of big monsters with zerg(that don't exist yet) as some sort of kaiju list I get, but hydras aren't that and allow zerg to run a more elite army than terrans and protoss?

You can take about 3 max squads of hydras at 2k, so 12 hydras for 9s. You will pay through the nose in gas to afford those slots but there are worse things you could do. They aren't exceptionally durable even with upgrades meant for that (evasion bonuses if they dont move and 1 auto save are the two choices) and count as light targets so it would be a glass cannon build. There would still be space for some lings a queen and roaches. If you want to compare whos more elite you have to remember that zealots are 2S for 3 dudes and thats functionally their battleline troop. Sentrys are 2 for 1s, Adepts are their biggest squad model wise at 4 and are more map control oriented

 

[p1138]

a min unit is 2 models and 2 supply, a full unit is 3 supply and 4 models. If I only told you the max value you wouldn't know the min squad value immediately. You get a supply discount by reinforcing in addition to a mineral cost reduction. For Hydras you literally do double the number of models unlike other unit reinforces, same goes for Marauders who also double their model count. You also do not have infinite core//elite//hero//supply slots so even if you take the discounted mineral cost for equivalent number of guys in some cases, you're still paying for it in supply which is force org slots. That 1 extra supply you tacked on reinforcing a marine squad could have been 3 extra bodies if it was a MSU. There's also other things to factor like action economy and the "pass" system to gain first activation in later phases.

This is why I said in my example using guardsmen and orks, 10/20. You know how you solve this regarding the marines in the starcraft game? "What's the unit size for space marines?" "6/9 at 1/2 supply" it's not that complicated.

They are. 1 supply solo 2 supply reinforced

Yes... I had the page open as I typed that.

Clearly you're excited for this game. I'm not. I don't mind you correcting my mis-reading of the rules regarding the supply limit escalation per round, that's fine. But I'm never going to like this game, so if you're trying to convince me to, just stop. Even before getting to the game itself, the model quality, the rules, etc. it's a company run by a known scammer, having defrauded customers within the same industry. That right there is probably one of the biggest failures in my eyes, and something I find to be inexcusable. It could be the best models ever, and have an auto blowjob bot in every box, and I wouldn't be interested in it knowing it's run by a scammer.

Then after that it's a low unit count, and seems to have a snowballing win state if someone has been losing by attrition into later rounds since the player winning isn't the one that needs extra models on the board to attempt to change the state of the game by then. At this point it would be like trying to convince me to bother with AoS after stating I don't like the double turn(amplifies the worst part of I go, you go. the not actually playing part).

And this is all over a licensed game which is going to have an expiration date and probably end up with little retail support(more reasons not to bother with it).

 

[Brubby Two]

so if you're trying to convince me to, just stop

As stated earlier that's fine I'm not sure what would make you think otherwise.

"What's the unit size for space marines?" "6/9 at 1/2 supply" it's not that complicated.

I detailed the nuances which make it different, it's what I like about the list building personally.

it's a company run by a known scammer, having defrauded customers within the same industry. That right there is probably one of the biggest failures in my eyes, and something I find to be inexcusable. It could be the best models ever, and have an auto blowjob bot in every box, and I wouldn't be interested in it knowing it's run by a scammer.

Yeah that's fine, he's a retarded dopey eyed cunt with a twink bf. I agree. I just dont see why you would bother trying to rationalize the game system being awful, that comes off as sour grapes. I'm not saying it's the second coming of Christ in tabletop form. We're just talking about game design.

 

[Kofi Drinka]

As stated earlier that's fine I'm not sure what would make you think otherwise.

I detailed the nuances which make it different, it's what I like about the list building personally.

Yeah that's fine, he's a retarded dopey eyed cunt with a twink bf. I agree. I just dont see why you would bother trying to rationalize the game system being awful, that comes off as sour grapes. I'm not saying it's the second coming of Christ in tabletop form. We're just talking about game design.

Systems I like are flawless.

Systems you like are no game, secondaries and only trannies buy them (but trannies also don't buy anything).

 

[Ghostse]

yesssssss.... This is the sort of spergy slapfight I expect from this thread.

 

[Adamska]

I'm personally amused because that slap fight occurred literally right after the modus operandi of the Creator was revealed as abusing astroturfing campaign allegedly. You can't really get timing like that usually.