The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Eris!]

How is this about controlling women, when the concern is about making abortion safe, which requires it to be conducted by a trained surgeon (who's likely male, no less)? If anything, it's the bodies of those surgeons that are being controlled.

Not allowing women to murder their own children is technically controlling women. But it's controlling them in the same way we control pedophiles.

 

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

It hasn't been created yet. It's still in formation. Just like how a bridge isn't a bridge until it's done.

Well when is a human 'done' then? Are children (birth to 18 years old) 'done'? If children are not 'done' then why should they be treated any differently than a fetus?

 

[Zero Day Defense]

I don't LIKE the fact that abortion sometimes has to happen, or the idea of getting rid of potential life. But to be this narrow minded and holier than thou about it when it's not that simple is pretty ridiculous.

It is that simple.

It's murder.

Absolutely nothing about the mother's circumstances erases that fact. Even if you're doing it to save the mother's life, it's a necessary evil.

If you want to argue for it, or that it's a messy situation, then you regardless have to own up to it being murder. Anything else is disingenuous. Appealing to complexity doubly so. Arguing they're not even human... well, that's scientifically and ontologically misinformed.

If children are not 'done' then why should they be treated any differently than a fetus?

If you stab a child, you can see and hear them in pain.

I reckon that's why.

 

[Eris!]

If you stab a child, you can see and hear them in pain.

I reckon that's why.

To the moral nihilist atheist, murder is wrong because it feels unpleasant.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Well when is a human 'done' then? Are children (birth to 18 years old) 'done'? If children are not 'done' then why should they be treated any differently than a fetus?

I am not sure when it's done, but all outlawing abortion is going to do is make women go underground to get them and lead to more deaths. Generally the only people who want to outlaw abortion are fundie evangelicals, and we have a separation of church and state here so too bad.

I know people here want to make it so people don't fuck, but the thing is, people are gonna fuck. A 16 year old kid shouldn't be stuck with a baby just because she had sex with her boyfriend and he didn't put the condom on right.

It'd even be less bad but the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to do away with social welfare programs to help the poor single mothers that wouldn't be able to get abortions.

 

[Eris!]

I am not sure when it's done, but all outlawing abortion is going to do is make women go underground to get them and lead to more deaths.

Good. Murderers dying is good.

Generally the only people who want to outlaw abortion are fundie evangelicals, and we have a separation of church and state here so too bad.

You keep harping on this point, desperate to change the arguments you face to ones you would prefer to face.
There is no "separation of church and state" as you seem to understand it. Separation of church and state does the exact opposite of what you think it does: it prevents the government from forbidding you from using religious reasoning when you vote. It permits religious thinking. We are not a secular state like France, that is very different.

I know people here want to make it so people don't fuck, but the thing is, people are gonna fuck.

This weird attitude that human beings are deterministic is always peculiar to me. People do what they choose to do. If you choose not to fuck, you will never fuck. Expecting morality from people is how we did things for thousands of years, and it works very well.

A 16 year old kid shouldn't be stuck with a baby just because she had sex with her boyfriend and he didn't put the condom on right.

Then she has to live with the consequences of her life choices. That's literally the whole point of life. You people all seem to hate life itself.

It'd even be less bad but the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to do away with social welfare programs to help the poor single mothers that wouldn't be able to get abortions.

Because they're perfectly capable of helping themselves.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

I am not sure when it's done,

Then you don't have a part in this conversation.

but all outlawing abortion is going to do is make women go underground to get them and lead to more deaths.

It would lead to less deaths, absolutely speaking, since the stark majority of abortions are done out of plain desire. At any rate, though, I don't think anyone here is arguing against abortion to save a mother's life, and many here advocate abortion in the case of conception-by-rape. Myself, I'm principally concerned with the culture that's normalized something like this, and how to shift it so it regards it as inherently bad. Roe v. Wade doesn't need to be overturned for that.

16 year old kid shouldn't be stuck with a baby just because she had sex with her boyfriend and he didn't put the condom on right.

Actually, that's exactly what should happen. They should be made acutely aware of the consequences of taking grave actions with such levity. They should take responsibility.

It'd even be less bad but the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to do away with social welfare programs to help the poor single mothers that wouldn't be able to get abortions.

I haven't anything to do with those people, in that I recognize that social welfare programs can't be pared down until less people rely on them in the first place. That requires social mobility and weaning. On the other hand, to continue as we have only makes people more reliant on the State, which prevents them from moving upwards socioeconomically.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Good. Murderers dying is good.

They aren't murderers to the vast majority of people

You keep harping on this point, desperate to change the arguments you face to ones you would prefer to face.
There is no "separation of church and state" as you seem to understand it. Separation of church and state does the exact opposite of what you think it does: it prevents the government from forbidding you from using religious reasoning when you vote. It permits religious thinking. We are not a secular state like France, that is very different.

No it doesn't. Separation of church and state means that the state doesn't do religious shit.

This weird attitude that human beings are deterministic is always peculiar to me. People do what they choose to do. If you choose not to fuck, you will never fuck. Expecting morality from people is how we did things for thousands of years, and it works very well.

Just because you can't get laid doesn't mean others have that same problem.

Because they're perfectly capable of helping themselves.

Are they? You really think a 16 year old single mother is going to be able to afford a kid? Do you know how shitty minimum wage is?

The women who abort are the people who shouldn't be having babies, anyway. Abortion is a net positive for society.

 

[Eris!]

They aren't murderers to the vast majority of people

There is no "to X people," about it. They are objectively murderers. They committed murder in actual fact.
Anyone who disagrees is factually incorrect or lying.

No it doesn't. Separation of church and state means that the state doesn't do religious shit.

You're retarded.
The first amendment means they cannot specifically enforce, or specifically forbid, religious thought. It was written by Puritans who were angry at European lords for forbidding them from writing puritan laws. "Separation of church and state" is a concept from a letter written by Jefferson, and not a law at all.
There is no "You can't be religious in the capitol" law in the united states. You are retarded if you think there is.

Just because you can't get laid doesn't mean others have that same problem.

Notice how you have to deflect from my obviously factually correct statement that human beings control their actions, and that if you choose not to have sex you won't.

Are they? You really think a 16 year old single mother is going to be able to afford a kid?

Millions of them do it every day.

Do you know how shitty minimum wage is?

I don't care how shitty it is, they brought that shittiness on themselves. It's not unjust that they suffer the consequences of bad choices, it's just. It's life.

Abortion is a net positive for society.

Utilitarianism is immoral, and this is why. Murder as a net positive for society is still murder.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

There is no "to X people," about it. They are objectively murderers. They committed murder in actual fact.
Anyone who disagrees is factually incorrect or lying.

You're retarded.
The first amendment means they cannot specifically enforce, or specifically forbid, religious thought. It was written by Puritans who were angry at European lords for forbidding them from writing puritan laws. "Separation of church and state" is a concept from a letter written by Jefferson, and not a law at all.
There is no "You can't be religious in the capitol" law in the united states. You are retarded if you think there is.

Notice how you have to deflect from my obviously factually correct statement that human beings control their actions, and that if you choose not to have sex you won't.

Millions of them do it every day.

I don't care how shitty it is, they brought that shittiness on themselves. It's not unjust that they suffer the consequences of bad choices, it's just. It's life.

Utilitarianism is immoral, and this is why. Murder as a net positive for society is still murder.

I am guessing you are still in high school based on your arguments, especially about the social welfare programs, but the thing is, people are gonna fuck. You can't stop them. People will have sex. You know how people disobeyed lockdown and mask orders? Well, telling people not to fuck is going to be even worse. Abstinence sexual education has been shown to be a huge failure

You can be religious in the capitol, but the US cannot base laws on religion. That's the whole "Separation of church and state thing".

Those 16 year old girls who end up having to support kids are then living in poverty for life.. You shouldn't be forced to live in poverty for life because you used a condom wrong when you were 16.

 

[Sulla]

They aren't murderers to the vast majority of people

Some people don't consider blacks to be human, therefore it's not murder to lynch them.

For some reason your entire rational seems to be based on emotion and not actual logic.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT:

Those 16 year old girls who end up having to support kids are then living in poverty for life.. You shouldn't be forced to live in poverty for life because you used a condom wrong when you were 16

Says who? People have been making that mistake since the dawn of our species and have thus suffered the consequences.

Last time I checked commiting murder to improve your living standards is still murder?

 

[Sweetpeaa]

Incels going towards the pro-life lobby to get back at women with faux fetus concern is as predictable as a re-run. Misery loves company.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Incels going towards the pro-life lobby to get back at women with faux fetus concern is as predictable as a re-run. Misery loves company.

I used to be pro-life a long time ago, and then I got laid and freaked out thinking that if I got her pregnant, I'd be fucked. I then became pro-choice.

 

[Eris!]

I am guessing you are still in high school based on your arguments,

Every time you post a deflection like this it further convinces me I am right.

You can't stop them.

You literally can. It's called good parenting and morality. People have done it for centuries. People still do it today.
You literally can.

Abstinence sexual education has been shown to be a huge failure

Public Education is a failure in general. Parents educate their children, not some stranger hired by the state.

Those 16 year old girls who end up having to support kids are then living in poverty for life.

That's not my problem, it's their problem.

You shouldn't be forced to live in poverty for life

No one forced them. They chose it.

Incels going towards the pro-life lobby to get back at women with faux fetus concern is as predictable as a re-run. Misery loves company.

I'm noticing you never actually respond directly to people. You just post on your soapbox about how we're all big dumb incel religious nuts, and ignore the response. Very telling.

 

[Sweetpeaa]

Again, if that's murder, Where the fuck is the human? you tell me. That looks practically like vaginal discharge and that's an ''8 week abortion''

 

[Eris!]

Again, if that's murder, Where the fuck is the human? you tell me. That looks practically like vaginal discharge and that's an ''8 week abortion''

View attachment 1616831

It's right there in the picture you posted.
Now do the same thing with a grave and ask where the human is.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

No one forced them. They chose it.

Yeah, good thing rape doesn't happen

I'm noticing you never actually respond directly to people. You just post on your soapbox about how we're all big dumb incel religious nuts, and ignore the response. Very telling.

That is because you are coming off as an incel who is mad that people get laid and you can't. And you don't seem to understand that people make mistakes.

 

[Eris!]

Yeah, good thing rape doesn't happen

Rape and medical complications combined represent less than .01% of abortion procedures. The rest are all totally elective.
Anyone who brings up rape in this argument is being disingenuous and desperately reaching for some contrived circumstance that permits you to commit murder.

That is because you are coming off as an incel who is mad that people get laid and you can't.

Statements like this indicate you have no actual arguments. No one uses them as a first choice.
You are essentially arguing that my side is right by saying non-sequitur insubstantial nothings like this.

And you don't seem to understand that people make mistakes.

I understand that people make mistakes. You don't seem to understand that that's not a problem we need to fix, it's life.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

Rape and medical complications combined represent less than .01% of abortion procedures. The rest are all totally elective.
Anyone who brings up rape in this argument is being disingenuous and desperately reaching for some contrived circumstance that permits you to commit murder.

Nah, it's over 1%. But what about those women? Screw them, right?

Statements like this indicate you have no actual arguments. No one uses them as a first choice.
You are essentially arguing that my side is right by saying non-sequitur insubstantial nothings like this.

No, you seem to be arguing that if you make a mistake, you should be fucked for life. Anyone who is regularly getting laid is going to realize how stupid your argument is, with the anxiety that can follow it.

I understand that people make mistakes. You don't seem to understand that that's not a problem we need to fix, it's life.

Abortion isn't murder to the vast majority of people. Only religious fundies and incels view it as such

 

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

I am not sure when it's done, but all outlawing abortion is going to do is make women go underground to get them and lead to more deaths. Generally the only people who want to outlaw abortion are fundie evangelicals, and we have a separation of church and state here so too bad.

I know people here want to make it so people don't fuck, but the thing is, people are gonna fuck. A 16 year old kid shouldn't be stuck with a baby just because she had sex with her boyfriend and he didn't put the condom on right.

It'd even be less bad but the same people who want to outlaw abortion want to do away with social welfare programs to help the poor single mothers that wouldn't be able to get abortions.

I think that you do have a valid point about women going underground and possibly creating more problems. I've heard similar arguments about drugs and I mostly agree with them. The problem is that when someone decides to take drugs there doesn't necessarily have to be someone else involved or that a being that could be considered a person has to be killed. By legalizing abortion the state is saying that it is okay for someone to kill a fetus (which, at least to some people, is a person); not for self defense or in retribution for a crime, but for convenience. This might lead to the behavior getting more normalized and result in more abortions.

I also understand that people are going to fuck regardless of what the state or the church says. It is regrettable for a 16 year old girl to get pregnant by accident, but (providing we see the fetus as a person) that doesn't give her the right to kill another person. I think that we should have sex education (real sex education, not that tranny shit they are pushing nowadays), cheap (possibility state-funded, but that's one massive can of worms) and readily available methods of contraception, and an adoption system that is willing to take care of children when their parent's are too young/poor to do so. I think that we can seriously mitigate these sorts of problems without resorting to abortion. It is unfortunate that some of the people on my side aren't willing to make these alternate methods of reducing the number of unwanted fetuses created more effective.

Now as for your last point, I think that your talking less about abortion and more about what people think the state should and shouldn't be doing and less about abortion itself.

INNNNNNNNNNNNNNCEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!