The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

You want it there to make sure the baby dies. To make sure that even if there was an error of diagnosis, that woman goes home childless. Even if a few mistakes have to be made, it's worth it to you, because that way you're certain that a life-unworthy-of-life is not allowed to continue.

Own it.
Depends on the context. If the baby is technically alive, but hooked up to machines and braindead like Baby K, yes I think it would be better if it was aborted. What kind of errors are we talking about? Can you provide any stories as examples? Do you think they should have been allowed to keep this baby alive? How long?
Abortionists
Do you realize how retarded a term that is? It's insanely biased and misleading, as if prochoicers want to just abort everything and not that it should be available. Even crazy socialist Pagans like myself who literally support infanticide if it's freely chosen still think a mom should be allowed to have the disabled kid and give birth to the dead baby and hug it if that's what she wants.
 
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Hypothetical: A woman discovers she's pregnant. She takes medication that may harm a fetus, but it hasn't yet. If she stops the medication, she'll suffer permanent health repercussions. Her options are A. Sacrifice her health for a healthy baby, B. Maintain her health for a possibly fucked up baby/dangerous birth, C. Maintain her health and abort the baby. Assume she'd want a healthy baby without risk (if she could).

Which of these are moral, and which are fair? Are any of them both? I'm especially curious what those against abortion think.
 
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Hypothetical: A woman discovers she's pregnant. She takes medication that may harm a fetus, but it hasn't yet. If she stops the medication, she'll suffer permanent health repercussions. Her options are A. Sacrifice her health for a healthy baby, B. Maintain her health for a possibly fucked up baby/dangerous birth, C. Maintain her health and abort the baby. Assume she'd want a healthy baby without risk (if she could).

Which of these are moral, and which are fair? Are any of them both? I'm especially curious what those against abortion think.

This presents an actual moral decision because you are weighing one genuine harm vs another, as opposed to a question of murder for the sake of convenience. Very different. If you asked me, I would say to prioritize the health of the child, but a decision the other way would be defensible. Killing the child would not be.
 
This presents an actual moral decision because you are weighing one genuine harm vs another, as opposed to a question of murder for the sake of convenience. Very different. If you asked me, I would say to prioritize the health of the child, but a decision the other way would be defensible. Killing the child would not be.
What's your view on longterm life support for medically futile cases like Baby K?
 
Hypothetical: A woman discovers she's pregnant. She takes medication that may harm a fetus, but it hasn't yet. If she stops the medication, she'll suffer permanent health repercussions. Her options are A. Sacrifice her health for a healthy baby, B. Maintain her health for a possibly fucked up baby/dangerous birth, C. Maintain her health and abort the baby. Assume she'd want a healthy baby without risk (if she could).

Which of these are moral, and which are fair? Are any of them both? I'm especially curious what those against abortion think.
The child saving one.
 
As I've said previously, I'm not necessarily opposed to it. It's certainly a better use of welfare dollars than most.
You think keeping an anencephalic baby on life support for years who will never have any quality of life is better than welfare? That's fucking retarded. At least supporting perinatal hospice makes sense if the mom still wants to hold the kid but wasting resources keeping it alive and saying that's better than welfare is so dumb.

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You think keeping an anencephalic baby on life support for years who will never have any quality of life is better than welfare? That's fucking retarded. At least supporting perinatal hospice makes sense if the mom still wants to hold the kid but wasting resources keeping it alive and saying that's better than welfare is so dumb.

View attachment 3256388
That's right.
This sick child justifies all the healthy ones that get killed out of convenience.
 
Try deformed and incompatible with life. Why do prolifers always minimize catastrophic fetal defects?
Fine.
This deformed and incompatible with life child justifies all the healthy ones that get aborted.
This sounds so much better now.
Also
wasting resources keeping it alive and saying that's better than welfare is so dumb.
Will the government remove all the hormone therapy and dick snipping moneys from troons who'll just kill themselves anyway too?
 
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Hypothetical: A woman discovers she's pregnant. She takes medication that may harm a fetus, but it hasn't yet. If she stops the medication, she'll suffer permanent health repercussions. Her options are A. Sacrifice her health for a healthy baby, B. Maintain her health for a possibly fucked up baby/dangerous birth, C. Maintain her health and abort the baby. Assume she'd want a healthy baby without risk (if she could).

Which of these are moral, and which are fair? Are any of them both? I'm especially curious what those against abortion think.

This is one of those cases where the more you know, the less compelling these what-ifs become. Any situation in which this is happening will not be vague but specific, so let's plug in some specific variables to try it out. Let's say she's taking lithium. It causes fetal heart defects, primarily. After the heart is formed, the window of danger has passed and if the baby came out alright after that point then what would typically be done is set her up for increased monitoring of the pregnancy with a maternal-fetal medicine specialist while continuing the medication. After delivery, the baby will be carefully evaluated by a pediatrician for any signs of lethargy or other problems and if needed, treated in the special care unit.

Let's say as a different hypothetical that she's found out she is pregnant before the cardiac development window is closed. Again the referrals will happen and depending on her specific medical history they may find the least risky thing to do is to have her keep taking it with monitoring. Otherwise, they may switch her treatment to a medication that is proven to be less risky but also effective for the same disorder. In this case there are several of the anticonvulsant class drugs that could be tried.

This basic script is what will be followed for pretty much any teratogenic drug unless it is something that is truly not that helpful to the woman and could simply be stopped without harming her.

The only real exception to this is some forms of chemotherapy for cancer, the ones that are meant to basically glass any cells in their path. Most other therapies can be continued during pregnancy with special monitoring, or switched to a less risky alternative.

Try deformed and incompatible with life. Why do prolifers always minimize catastrophic fetal defects?
He's going to die. You are also going to die, and so am I. A fairly universal code of ethics is that we should treat others the way we want to be treated. If I had a terminal condition with no hope and I was possibly in pain or scared, this is what I would want (and I think most would want something similar) :

1. Medication that makes the pain go away and helps me rest.
2. No unnecessary medical interventions.
3. Be close to my family and others who love me, every possible minute.
4. My belief system's death rituals to be performed and an appropriate memorial held for my loved ones to grieve.

Why would you rip his head off instead of give him that?

All those things are what are provided with perinatal hospice. The baby is delivered and instead of being rushed to intensive care, his mother and father hold him while he dies. He is given medication for pain and perhaps some milk or sugar water because those things have an analgesic effect on neonates. Grandparents or others who love him surround him and see him off.

What suggests to you that anyone would prefer being stabbed in the face or ripped limb from limb over dying this way?
 
Fine.
This deformed and incompatible with life child justifies all the healthy ones that get aborted.
This sounds so much better now.
You're not arguing specifically for long term life support for a fetus like that though, right? Just that it's better to outlaw abortion even if there are some cases like that bc most aborted babies are healthy? Or are you saying we should stop spending money on welfare to support children so we can spend the money putting Baby Ks on life support perpetually?
Also

Will the government remove all the hormone therapy and dick snipping moneys from troons who'll just kill themselves anyway too?
They should.
 
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You're not arguing specifically for long term life support for a fetus like that though, right?
How long does a fetus generally survive if it needs fucking life support?
Just that it's better to outlaw abortion even if there are some cases like that bc most aborted babies are healthy?
Aren't most of them healthy?
Or are you saying we should stop spending money on welfare to support children so we can spend the money putting Baby Ks on life support perpetually?
I can say this. An institution that can print money, always has money, even though it's shit at managing it.
They should.
And why should they?
 
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How long does a fetus generally survive if it needs fucking life support?

Aren't most of them healthy?

I can say this. An institution that can print money, always has money, even though it's shit at managing it.
They can actually survive for many years. I'm talking about newborn babies that would normally be aborted though, not fetuses. Look up the Baby K case or Tinslee Lewis. If the brain stem is working, even if there is nothing else, they can live for yrs hooked up to machines.
And why should they?
Bc it's cosmetic in nature.
 
Here's a good study of women who were exposed to Category X (contraindicated in pregnancy, known to cause birth defects) drugs inadvertently.


By far more babies were aborted due to fear (and not actual defects) than any other negative outcome. Only one birth defect was reported, a relatively mild one, and the rates of stillbirth and miscarriage were not significantly different from normal.

Drugs contraindicated in pregnancy are medicines that should be avoided by pregnant women, since they carry a concern for teratogenicity or there is no indication for their use during pregnancy. It does not mean that exposures to these drugs always cause harm. The aim of the present study was to investigate the risk of adverse outcomes following maternal exposure to the drugs contraindicated in pregnancy. We retrospectively analyzed prenatal drug exposure records of the pregnant patients referred to the clinical pharmacology consultation service in a tertiary-level university hospital from January 2007 until December 2012. Exposures to category X drugs (CXD) contraindicated in pregnancy were evaluated. After the expected date of delivery, we collected data about pregnancy complications and the outcomes. For comparison the women in the exposed group (N=52) were matched with a control group (N=162) of pregnant women without teratogenic exposure. We observed only one baby born with a birth defect (congenital cryptorchidism) in CXD group (2.6%) and four in control group (RR 0.91; 95% CI 0.10- 7.94). The rates of adverse pregnancy outcomes including miscarriage, preterm birth and congenital abnormality were not significantly different from controls. However, the rate of elective termination of pregnancy was higher in women exposed to CXD while pregnant (RR 2.54; 95% CI 1.11- 5.80, p = 0.027). Contraceptive failure and unintended pregnancy are the reasons for inadvertent drug exposure and choosing abortion. The high perception of teratogenic risk among pregnant women may cause terminations of pregnancies. Individual risk assessment and avoiding the phrase `CXD` or `contraindicated in pregnancy` in counseling may help to reduce maternal concerns about medication use in pregnancy.
 
They can actually survive for many years.
On life support?
I'm talking about newborn babies that would normally be aborted though, not fetuses. Look up the Baby K case or Tinslee Lewis. If the brain stem is working, even if there is nothing else, they can live for yrs hooked up to machines.
If they can live for years, why kill them?
Bc it's cosmetic in nature.
And what's wrong with a cosmetic chopping off of the dick and drinking gender juice?
 
Thank you, this looks interesting. Usually you hear a similar argument about Down's testing from older women back when testing was less accurate and they gave likelihoods in percentages of how likely a DS baby was. Problem with (that specific argument at least) is that the tests nowadays are extremely accurate so it's not like when older women say: "they said my baby would have DS but he turned out fine!" when really they are poorly understanding they were just given a rough statistical probability and think it's relevant to pregnant women today.
I liked your point about perinatal hospice. I support that and think everyone should have that option. It's wrong even if she has an abortion and is not allowed to hold it if she wants if it has skin (earlier fetuses don't have skin yet).
But the specific situation of being exposed to a potentially toxic drug that may or may not have caused the baby problems and whether they should abort or whether the baby would have been born normal anyways. It's an interesting ethical dilemma. I admit I've thought if I ever have a baby, I'd abort it if it was exposed to something toxic like alcohol or something before I knew. But I don't think I could personally make the choice to abort unless the baby had very serious health problems or it was not white.
On life support?
Yes but they're braindead. Just breathing and unconscious but heart beating.
If they can live for years, why kill them?
Well that gets into the issue of QoL (quality of life). Think of cases of vegetative states where they "pull the plug". Cases like Jahi. If there is no ability to be conscious, I think it's unethical to keep them (artificially) alive.
And what's wrong with a cosmetic chopping off of the dick and drinking gender juice?
It's something that should be treated by mental health. We don't help anorexics lose weight or people with limb dysphoria cut their limbs off.
 
Thank you, this looks interesting. Usually you hear a similar argument about Down's testing from older women back when testing was less accurate and they gave likelihoods in percentages of how likely a DS baby was. Problem with (that specific argument at least) is that the tests nowadays are extremely accurate so it's not like when older women say: "they said my baby would have DS but he turned out fine!" when really they are poorly understanding they were just given a rough statistical probability and think it's relevant to pregnant women today.
I liked your point about perinatal hospice. I support that and think everyone should have that option. It's wrong even if she has an abortion and is not allowed to hold it if she wants if it has skin (earlier fetuses don't have skin yet).
But the specific situation of being exposed to a potentially toxic drug that may or may not have caused the baby problems and whether they should abort or whether the baby would have been born normal anyways. It's an interesting ethical dilemma. I admit I've thought if I ever have a baby, I'd abort it if it was exposed to something toxic like alcohol or something before I knew. But I don't think I could personally make the choice to abort unless the baby had very serious health problems or it was not white.

Yes but they're braindead. Just breathing and unconscious but heart beating.

Well that gets into the issue of QoL (quality of life). Think of cases of vegetative states where they "pull the plug". Cases like Jahi. If there is no ability to be conscious, I think it's unethical to keep them (artificially) alive.

It's something that should be treated by mental health. We don't help anorexics lose weight or people with limb dysphoria cut their limbs off.
"Earlier fetuses" do in fact have skin, it's just very easily torn. And of course they don't hand aborted babies over to mom to cuddle. They RIP THE FUCKING HEAD AND LEGS OFF and have to reassemble it in a tray to make sure they didn't leave anything behind.

Read a damn book.

What exactly do you think is floating around in a woman's body all those months? It's a human in the process of development. It has everything a human has, just not quite ready for prime time.

When pro-aborts spout this shit they just sound ignorant, like "HOW IS BABBY FORMED?" type ignorant, not the brave realists they believe themselves to be.
 
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