If you really want to make abortions go down, provide access to birth control. Just like doing drugs, people are gonna fuck. Just because you're mad that no woman will let you into her vag doesn't mean everyone should suffer
I suppose that means you would be for repealing that, and for the introduction of a law that removes any additional penalties for being violent toward women that causes them to lose their pregnancy
I suppose that means you would be for repealing that, and for the introduction of a law that removes any additional penalties for being violent toward women that causes them to lose their pregnancy
This is a bit long because this requires some legal nuance:
First of all, I wouldn't necessarily say "domestic violence laws" would cover this. Women do get murdered by their boyfriends, husbands, and baby-daddies at a tragically high rate, but throwing in "double homicide" packs a way bigger punch legally than does "1 homicide plus domestic violence." Also domestic violence laws do NOT cover random murders with no prior relation to the victim. One of Elliot Rodger's "mass-shooting" victims, for example, was a pregnant woman, and that was counted as a double homicide.
The legal presumption that makes "murder of a pregnant woman" a double homicide is that the child is wanted. It's presumed that the child would have been born, normally and happily, if the woman wasn't murdered. Also, this applies to any stage of pregnancy, so for example: Killing a pregnant woman who was 8 months pregnant with a healthy fetus? Yeah that baby could have easily survived to birth and was obviously wanted, so it's just considered the same as murdering two people and it's automatically assumed that the baby "would have been" living its full life cycle into adulthood and whatnot, if not for the murder. The same assumption can be applied to women in the earlier stages of pregnancy, but again because the baby was wanted and it's assumed the baby would have lived to adulthood and stuff.
In the case of abortion, there's normally a cut-off point around 4 months into the pregnancy. Or, in other states, when the fetus is considered "viable" and could theoretically survive outside of the womb. There's also the assumption that the potential baby is going to be aborted sooner rather than later (such as 2 months in), before it's too developed and not long after the woman knows she's pregnant. Also the assumption is a baby is unwanted, the mom has problems like poverty, or mental health issues, not married, too young, etc., or the fetus isn't viable due to birth defects.
Only a few states have "no limit" on abortions but that is also still restricted, so mostly only applied to late term babies with SEVERE defects that make them incompatible with life. Most fetuses are aborted way sooner and way before reaching viability.
It requires going to the doctor for a pap - yearly or bi-yearly - which isn't cheap depending on insurance, and if you're a teenager you'd have to drag your parent along to sign paperwork (mine would not have). Then after going to the doctor's if your insurance is cheap you end up paying for the pills which can vary depending on brand and shit. It ends up costing using any contraceptive method and people don't wanna spend extra money.
Tbh birth control should be free for those who can't afford anything and if they want it.
This is a bit long because this requires some legal nuance:
First of all, I wouldn't necessarily say "domestic violence laws" would cover this. Women do get murdered by their boyfriends, husbands, and baby-daddies at a tragically high rate, but throwing in "double homicide" packs a way bigger punch legally than does "1 homicide plus domestic violence." Also domestic violence laws do NOT cover random murders with no prior relation to the victim. One of Elliot Rodger's "mass-shooting" victims, for example, was a pregnant woman, and that was counted as a double homicide.
The legal presumption that makes "murder of a pregnant woman" a double homicide is that the child is wanted. It's presumed that the child would have been born, normally and happily, if the woman wasn't murdered. Also, this applies to any stage of pregnancy, so for example: Killing a pregnant woman who was 8 months pregnant with a healthy fetus? Yeah that baby could have easily survived to birth and was obviously wanted, so it's just considered the same as murdering two people and it's automatically assumed that the baby "would have been" living its full life cycle into adulthood and whatnot, if not for the murder. The same assumption can be applied to women in the earlier stages of pregnancy, but again because the baby was wanted and it's assumed the baby would have lived to adulthood and stuff.
In the case of abortion, there's normally a cut-off point around 4 months into the pregnancy. Or, in other states, when the fetus is considered "viable" and could theoretically survive outside of the womb. There's also the assumption that the potential baby is going to be aborted sooner rather than later (such as 2 months in), before it's too developed and not long after the woman knows she's pregnant. Also the assumption is a baby is unwanted, the mom has problems like poverty, or mental health issues, not married, too young, etc., or the fetus isn't viable due to birth defects.
Only a few states have "no limit" on abortions but that is also still restricted, so mostly only applied to late term babies with SEVERE defects that make them incompatible with life. Most fetuses are aborted way sooner and way before reaching viability.
For those who hold these two positions:
1. Abortion is murder
2. Abortion is acceptable in the case of rape
How do you reconcile the apparent contradiction here? If abortion is murder, then regardless of the circumstances in which the baby was created, it's still an innocent child being killed for something out of its control, no?
I agree this is a weird area of the law. "Intention" is the thrust of how the law handles it. I'll try my best to explain:
Abortion is usually legal for fetuses before viability is reached. (Or, afterwards if the fetus is determined incompatible with life [like having no brain or no lungs or something] and ONLY in a handful of US states.) By extension: When a fetus is aborted, there's also the assumption that the woman had no intent to raise or care for it, perhaps she has no resources (broke, teen, future single mom, druggie, etc. etc.), or she is mentally unfit to be a mother (drug user, BPD, ADHD, narcissist, etc. etc.), or she would otherwise be forced to abandon the child to the system if she actually gave birth to it (has a lot of potential unintended consequences, see Ukraine orphanages for an extreme example).
On the other hand, it's considered double homicide when you kill a pregnant woman who is intentionally having a wanted baby, because it's assumed the baby would have been carried to term and everything. By extension: The woman intended to raise the child and take responsibility for it. (The kid would have most likely been cared for and loved if the woman gave birth)
For those who hold these two positions:
1. Abortion is murder
2. Abortion is acceptable in the case of rape
How do you reconcile the apparent contradiction here? If abortion is murder, then regardless of the circumstances in which the baby was created, it's still an innocent child being killed for something out of its control, no?
This is a good question. I consider it a moral failing in myself that I find the murder of the child of a rapist acceptable. The same goes for children of women that impregnate themselves without consent from the man. (Even though these situations are obviously not an exact mirror of each other).
It's a contradiction I have not managed to resolve.
considered double homicide when you kill a pregnant woman who is intentionally having a wanted baby, because it's assumed the baby would have been carried to term and everything
Look, even on its face, you can't genuinely believe that people had exactly the same amount of sex now that they did before and they had back alley abortions at even around the same rate as we now have abortion procedures at PP or any hospital. People aren't overall inclined to put their bodily well-being or very lives in the hands of doctors who dispense with the appearance of legality for any kind of invasive procedure, but you assert that this wasn't the case for abortions.
Is a fetus a human or not? Well, there are levels to it. "Viability" is considered a dividing line, but the tl;dr is that will go away when the technology exists to create artificial wombs. (I hope sooner rather than later--artificial wombs will make abortion a thing of the past) Is the zygote AKA "a clump of cells" a human? I wouldn't personally call it a human because it's hardly developed and has no life or memories of living... but I agree and appreciate that it's a kind of living thing, and has the potential to become totally human when left alone.
Do you have a specific court case you're referring to? Has that actually happened or something? Not to give an empty answer, but it would depend on the evidence in the case. Hypothetically, if a pregnant woman is murdered, the surviving family is almost always going to try and get the most punishing charges for the murderer. I'm pretty sure any sane prosecutor is ALWAYS going to try pinning "double homicide" on the defendant if it looked like homicide in the slightest. The only way the defendant could prove it isn't double homicide, is if they had super hard evidence that the woman had an appointment to get an abortion or something. Unlikely they'll have that. (Not to mention, uh, if someone intentionally killed a pregnant woman they're already a piece of shit so saving them from double homicide isn't a good thing)
It's subjective and objective. You're right, it's subjective because it comes down to whether or not the baby was wanted. But objectively, we're talking about mothers who were (objectively) preparing to give a child the best life they can provide, and being objectively loving parents with both parents being around, supporting a human for 18+ years... As opposed to the majority of abortions, committed by women who objectively are not fit to be mothers, who have objectively serious problems like poverty, mental illness, being too young, being single and alone, objectively choosing between abortion or the Russian Roulette that is the adoption system, or just being an objectively irresponsible thot who DEFINITELY shouldn't have a child for 18+ years.
Hey, and on top of that subjective/objective thing: I'm not excusing everyone who gets an abortion to solve their problems. Personally, I certainly think a lot of these women need to shape up their lives and just take responsibility and NOT get an abortion, but we don't live in a perfect world and we have a shit ton of deadbeat dads which doesn't exactly help. Many of these women are taking the only option they have for a better life, and that's just how it is. But I really wish culture would bounce back and get away from the degenerate "anti-family" shit. But that's a whole other area of discussion if you want to get into that issue...
It requires going to the doctor for a pap - yearly or bi-yearly - which isn't cheap depending on insurance, and if you're a teenager you'd have to drag your parent along to sign paperwork (mine would not have). Then after going to the doctor's if your insurance is cheap you end up paying for the pills which can vary depending on brand and shit. It ends up costing using any contraceptive method and people don't wanna spend extra money.
Tbh birth control should be free for those who can't afford anything and if they want it.
I wanted to add here:
I don't know if this is legal EVERYWHERE, but you can actually order birth control for super cheap online... WITHOUT seeing a doctor in person. No insurance needed.
I have never physically gone to an OB/GYN for birth control prescriptions, you can do it all online. There are multiple online doctors you can meet with online for a small fee, fill out a small questionnaire, and get BC.
They give you the whole prescription and visit over the internet. I just gave a short history of my health and confirmed it was safe for me to take BC. You might pay as little as $300 for an entire year of birth control going this route. If you're a teenager this may or may not work? But this is definitely super affordable and easy if you're an adult.
"I must remind you that the negro is not a real human being and therefore slavery is legal, you idiot religious abolitionists!" - Democrats pre civil war
More getting at the fact that if we wholesale ban abortion like some people are suggesting, there are going to be thousands of "unwanted" children, growing up in abusive households, hundreds maybe thousands of more severely disabled children draining their parents and or the state's resources. I can poke around to see if I can find the blog but this husband and wife who had one or two very mentally and physically disabled children... Husband dies in a workplace "accident" (read suicide) to ensure his wife has enough money via life insurance to care for their potato children.
Also no abortions means more welfare queens like you said. I'm not sure if welfare / social assistance pays more to families with more children, but imagine if every poor, uneducated family now has 7 or 8 kids instead of 2 or 3.
There might not be much sympathy for the people getting back alley abortions, but illegal shit tends to breed other illegal shit. What's stopping the guy with the horse tranquilizers, shop vac and coathanger from just putting the woman getting an abortion under and selling them off to human trafficking? At least abortion clinics have to pay tax.
Well, there are levels to it. "Viability" is considered a dividing line, but the tl;dr is that will go away when the technology exists to create artificial wombs. (I hope sooner rather than later--artificial wombs will make abortion a thing of the past) Is the zygote AKA "a clump of cells" a human? I wouldn't personally call it a human because it's hardly developed and has no life or memories of living... but I agree and appreciate that it's a kind of living thing, and has the potential to become totally human when left alone.