The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Knojkamarangasan_#4]

Armenian genocide> Holocauster

 

[Lemmingwise]

The holocaust has been sensationalized and maybe not everything that has been said about what happened in the camps is true, but that's true of any major historical event, not everything that's been said about them is true, stuff often gets sensationalized, doesn't mean these events as a whole didn't still happen.

Holocaust deniers often will point to some dubious thing from some book as a "gotcha!" as if that somehow proves the Holocaust as a whole didn't happen, do you really expect an event that has been written about as much as the Holocaust has not to have a few falsehoods here and there? Again, this is true of any major historical event.

At the end of the day the ultimate proof of the Holocaust is Holocaust deniers themselves, so often is it wrapped up in extreme anti-semitism that you have to ask yourself the question if people like that had the political power to do so, would they not attempt a genocide? Genocide isn't even that rare of an occurrence throughout human history, so take the fact that the Nazis had a lot of open and extreme anti-semitism, look at anti-semitism throughout history and look at the anti-semitism that is still going on today and tell me that it's hard to believe that at some point someone would attempt a genocide of Jews.

Now, with all that said what is frustrating is the political left does exploit the Holocaust as a political tool, they're always using "mic drop" moments like that to try to end discussion like the "kids in cages" thing whenever one talks about Trump for example, it shames the memory of the people that died to use the tragedy as a political tool to try to shut up any debate and discussion.

It's an argument that ends up being circular if you look at the whole picture.

When people want to revise facts about the holocaust they're antisemitic and their revisions are false because they are antisemitic.

If you do investigate it and come across people that had no prior reason to be thought of as anti-semites, like david cole or fred leuchter and who did not take issue with the idea of german command wanting destruction of the jewish people, but are still smeared into antisemitic holocaust deniers and then put into the kafka trap where they can't criticize the people who are lying against them, because that would only prove their guilty status as anti-semites.


Just read Leuchter's story from the beginning. Entertain the possibility that he wasn't a secret jew hater, and that he was simply honest. Put yourself in his shoes. What would it do to your opinion of jews going through the same thing?

Honest question.

I don't know if he was honest or not. There are a lot parts to the holocaust I don't know what to believe. But I know that the version that is illegal to question in more countries than I have fingers is probably not the full and complete truth.

 

[Vecr]

It's an argument that ends up being circular if you look at the whole picture.

When people want to revise facts about the holocaust they're antisemitic and their revisions are false because they are antisemitic.

If you do investigate it and come across people that had no prior reason to be thought of as anti-semites, like david cole or fred leuchter and who did not take issue with the idea of german command wanting destruction of the Trump's Chosen people, but are still smeared into antisemitic holocaust deniers and then put into the kafka trap where they can't criticize the people who are lying against them, because that would only prove their guilty status as anti-semites.


Just read Leuchter's story from the beginning. Entertain the possibility that he wasn't a secret one of Trump's Chosen People hater, and that he was simply honest. Put yourself in his shoes. What would it do to your opinion of Trump's Chosen People going through the same thing?

Honest question.

I don't know if he was honest or not. There are a lot parts to the holocaust I don't know what to believe. But I know that the version that is illegal to question in more countries than I have fingers is probably not the full and complete truth.

Leuchter (sp?) had Dunning–Kruger in relation to gas chambers, he only had experience with a certain type, but rigidly discounted quite a lot of other stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyoMvdLFd_I

 

[Super-Chevy454]

The holocaust has been sensationalized and maybe not everything that has been said about what happened in the camps is true, but that's true of any major historical event, not everything that's been said about them is true, stuff often gets sensationalized, doesn't mean these events as a whole didn't still happen.

Holocaust deniers often will point to some dubious thing from some book as a "gotcha!" as if that somehow proves the Holocaust as a whole didn't happen, do you really expect an event that has been written about as much as the Holocaust has not to have a few falsehoods here and there? Again, this is true of any major historical event.

At the end of the day the ultimate proof of the Holocaust is Holocaust deniers themselves, so often is it wrapped up in extreme anti-semitism that you have to ask yourself the question if people like that had the political power to do so, would they not attempt a genocide? Genocide isn't even that rare of an occurrence throughout human history, so take the fact that the Nazis had a lot of open and extreme anti-semitism, look at anti-semitism throughout history and look at the anti-semitism that is still going on today and tell me that it's hard to believe that at some point someone would attempt a genocide of Jews?

Now, with all that said what is frustrating is the political left does exploit the Holocaust as a political tool, they're always using "mic drop" moments like that to try to end discussion like the "kids in cages" thing whenever one talks about Trump for example, it shames the memory of the people that died to use the tragedy as a political tool to try to shut up any debate and discussion.

But of course tragedy is often exploited for political means and it isn't just a left wing thing either, 9/11 was often used by conservatives in the 2000s to try to shut up any dissent over George W Bush and the Iraq war, it's a tacky tactic and in the case of the Holocaust it has given the event a lot of political baggage that shouldn't really be there, which is unfortunate.

But that still doesn't change the fact that it happened.

The ultimate takeaway I think people should have from not just the Holocaust but the Communist genocides as well is the dangers of political extremism of any stripe, when radical ideology clouds people's judgement of basic human decency, innocent people get hurt in large numbers.

Also, I mentionned it once in another thread, a book titled "The Holocaust Industry". Besides the Holocaust deniers, there those who exploit it for their own personnal gains, like for example, the numbers of Holocaust related movies released and more worrying is the "Holocaust fatigue" where people became more and more tired of hearing about the Holocaust and when the last survivors will pass away. http://www.thetower.org/article/how-the-holocaust-became-a-weapon-against-Trump's Chosen People/

How the Holocaust Became a Weapon Against Jews - The Tower

archived 14 Aug 2017 19:34:40 UTC

archive.vn

What will the Holocaust mean after all of the survivors are gone?
If it is in any way possible for genocide to have had a heyday, the Holocaust surely once had such a moment in time. The world’s greatest mass murder, which for decades had succumbed to the shrill sounds of global silence—in part due to shock, and the rest to embarrassment—“enjoyed” a period when it was the atrocity du jour, the anthem to man’s inhumanity to man. This period began toward the end of the 1970s (exemplified by the hit 1978 miniseries Holocaust) and reached its zenith by the mid-1990s. During that improbable time, the Holocaust had bizarrely become a cultural touchstone fashioned from the ashes of Auschwitz.
Yes, you read that right: A Jewish genocide was once in vogue, and it was not a passing trend. It had cultural staying power—with all the cache that inevitably turned it into a cliché. The Holocaust was hip. Cattle cars and tattooed forearms found their way into cocktail conversations. Knowing something about the Holocaust—almost anything—was a litmus test for entry into polite company, even though the material itself was impolitic, wholly alien, and had no place in any social circle.

Btw, I saw on an other forum, a thread about the Holocaust worth to see for some interesting posts. http://www.city-data.com/forum/great-debates/2409890-holocaust.html

As for these Holocaust deniers, it could be interesting to see them confronting some Holodomor deniers and Armenian genocide deniers.

 

[Dom Cruise]

All I know, my grandfather was at the liberation of Auschwitz.

He survived Omaha beach being 1 of 2 officers in his company to live. The other guy lost both of his legs...

But, that didn't break my grandfather. He could compartmentalize that...

No, what broke my grandfather was the shit he saw at the concentration camp...

The stuff he saw made him a raging alcholic for most of his life...

So, you could debate the exact death toll if you wish...

But nothing, not even Normandy, or the Hedgerows of France with 1st Infantry Division could prepare him for the carnage he saw that day....

It was so inhuman it was almost alien...

Bodies of naked children were stacked in piles like garbage. That's just beginning...

This is another thing to remember, American soldiers found the camps and saw the carnage firsthand, do we think those guys are lying?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Leuchter (sp?) had Dunning–Kruger in relation to gas chambers, he only had experience with a certain type, but rigidly discounted quite a lot of other stuff.

If you think him to have made an honest mistake (from dunning kruger), how would that make him an anti-semite?

Consider the argument I was addressing, that the antisemitism of deniers is the proof of them being false.

As for the video, I didn't get to Leuchter part. I do think that if you watch david cole's (since they featured him) documentary, that you're left with questions about how that video represents things. But whether you have that curiosity or not is up to you.

 

[Ligoskj]

It's the year 2020, people still do not understand the value of human life.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

The Holocaust is brought up so much because it is the only genocide that the western world has a large amount of accessible information about. We know that the Soviets and the Chinese killed more people than the Nazis ever did, but how much evidence do we have of those? The people who survived did not speak out, and of those who did, there is less testimony that westerners have access to.

 

[Pepsi-Cola]

Germans loved Je᠎ws so much, that they built camps for them. Camps with swimming pools, dentists, doctors, football teams, plays. But they really really loved Je᠎ws so much, that they wanted to give them a special gift. What does man love more than anything else, thought the German? Why work, of course. So they gave them more work than they could ever complete in their life, so big was the German's love for the J᠎ews. Because the Germans knew, arbeit macht frei.

But in their love, they made an error. J᠎ews are not like Germans. Despite their superior intellect, they have a kryptonite, an achilles heel, fatal flaw with which they can be brought down. Work. Oh how the Germans cried out when the more gifts they gave the Je᠎ws, the more of their favorite friends died. So deep was the German's grief of the loss of their friends, that they managed to run their crematoriums at speeds never rivalled before or after. And so heartbroken were the Je᠎ws at feeling betrayed by their greatest ally, that they found a new greatest ally across the ocean.

And the J᠎ew knew the German's hearts and that there never was ill will in them, not even when they were machinegunning Je᠎ws by the thousands. Surely the high command can't be blamed for local Germans not obeying orders, as Germans are prone to. Certainly they knew that the Final Solution was simply the quest to find the greatest gift to give to Je᠎ws, and the Je᠎w planned similar parties like The Morgenthau Surprise Party Plan, which would have led to to millions of Germans re-uniting with their favorite friend in the afterlife.

Of course when the war was over, the Je᠎ws looked at the price Germans had paid for the loving gestures toward them and thought to give them a gift worth giving back. And the Je᠎ws knew there is nothing better than a Je᠎w, so to truly give a gift worth giving to the Germans, we're going to hug and Je᠎᠎w the crap out of them. Everyone loves lawsuits right? Let's have some celebratory tribunals. And let's treat the Germans the way Mengele treated Je᠎ws. And in their love, the Je᠎ws too made an error, for a German will spend days trying to correct a form error, let alone complete mistrials.

And of course the Je᠎ws felt bad for all the destroyed land that came out of the rocky friendship between Germans and Je᠎ws. They planned some nice land development, some tourist attractions, some fictional gas chambers, like a really depressing disney land. Of course they got some details wrong, like wooden door, lack of holes in the roof, but it's the fantasy that counts. Because even if it's proven false, it was real in their mind. And your mind. And your children's minds.

And they lived happily ever after.

i literally cringed when i read this one dude ngl

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Here's my uninformed take. The Holocaust happened. The gas chambers were real. The Jews were slated for extermination, among with other groups.
Now, a lot of individual stories are absolute nonsense, and I don't doubt they exaggerate the numbers for political purposes. Just recently I saw a claim that there was some ridiculous number of camps in existence, and when I did the math it would have required an average of, like, 50 people per camp, which is absurd. But there was definitely some intentional genocide. Often you hear crapola like that it was only 500,000 dead. Even if that was true, what fucking difference does it make? How does it matter if it was 99% of them or 1% when the point is the intention? 500,000 is still 500,000 too many when you're rounding up random people.

Holocaust revisionist material, as well as some other anti-Semitic material, suffers heavily from circular references. It's convincing at first because of how meticulously documented it is, but then you find out that the citations come from other sources which cite the source you originally looked at! Or, you start digging into citations and find that you can't find the source, or the source was quoted out of context, or it comes from an extremely sketchy source, and so on.

Armenian genocide> Holocauster

To be honest, the more I learn about Armenians, the less I sympathize with them.
And that's kind of a constant in genocides. It turns out that whenever some group is widely hated, especially to the point of genocide, there's usually a damn good reason for it. It's just that the genocide itself is a massive overreaction to the perceived grievance.

This is another thing to remember, American soldiers found the camps and saw the carnage firsthand, do we think those guys are lying?

I may be wrong on this point, but isn't that old Nazi infographic about the concentration camps true? That the Americans found concentration camps, but not extermination camps?

I would think (don't know) that the Germans would have turned to massacring Jews in the old-fashioned way, gas chambers are not, but famine and typhoid are a plausible explanation for the horrible stacks of bodies.

Unless I'm wrong and they were just straight up gassing/bayonetting/shooting prisoners in the West, too.

 

[Mr Himmler]

Treasure Trove of Holohoax Documentaries

Hope this helps, hours of the truth.

 

[mr.moon1488]

Treasure Trove of Holohoax Documentaries

Hope this helps, hours of the truth.

Lol one thing that blows my mind about that shit is that one witness said "human hair was used for mattresses," and no one ever thought to ask "well, where are these mattresses now?"

 

[potato in mah painus]

Pesticide tech here, actually have a guide book and training regarding using fumigants. Once of the things that stands out regarding hydrogen cyanide is its reactivity and flammability. If the Germans were gassing even a fraction of the number of people recorded, the lethal dose levels are not far off from a very explosive mix of gas. This is before you even take into consideration the number of people, humidity, permeability of the rooms (this stuff readily seeps through porous surfaces) and any other factors that reduces the effectiveness of the fumigant used. In short if the germans were really that fucking stupid, they would have very quickly found themselves without their gas chambers, surrounding buildings, eardrums, and windows.

Ill need to post a correction on my own research and fumigation knowledge, HCN is not flammable in the concentrations required to kill a human, average lethal dose varies from 150-500 ppm with acute effects as low as 5 ppm:

Hydrogen Cyanide: Acute Exposure Guideline Levels - Acute Exposure Guideline Levels for Selected Airborne Chemicals - NCBI Bookshelf

This does not change the ton of other factors required to safely deliver a lethal dose to a crowd of people, but the less incorrect information spread the better.

I'm more inclined to believe rampant starvation and disease caused the majority of deaths, a lot of the photos of survivors looking like skeletons with skin (good luck making human soap with bodies that have 0 fat) tends to support that.

 

[snailslime]

why are goys so obsessed with us

 

[mr.moon1488]

why are goys so obsessed with us

Because we wanna see dem tiddies

 

[byuu]

Once of the things that stands out regarding hydrogen cyanide is its reactivity and flammability. If the Germans were gassing even a fraction of the number of people recorded, the lethal dose levels are not far off from a very explosive mix of gas

Zyklon B wasn't raw hydrogen cyanide. It was a "safe" form of hydrogen cyanide with stabilizers added to avoid explosions.
And the lethal dose levels are orders of magnitude lower than the explosive levels.

 

[Lemmingwise]

of naked children were stacked in piles like garbage. That's just the beginning

Can you elaborate more on what he's seen?
In what way did it differ from say, what it would have looked like if Japan conquered the USA, destroyed their supply lines, had USA people starving for months as they did in Germany, including in prison camps. In what way was the camp that he got to qualitatively different than the Japanese camp in the USA might have been under such circumstance?

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

Can you elaborate more on what he's seen?
In what way did it differ from say, what it would have looked like if Japan conquered the USA, destroyed their supply lines, had USA people starving for months as they did in Germany, including in prison camps. In what way was the camp that he got to qualitatively different than the Japanese camp in the USA might have been under such circumstance?

A couple of things, but obviously he didn't elaborate in great detail.

But, he was an officer and had to file observations in his reports...

Stuff that sticks out: they ran out of nerve gas at some point. They needed to save ammunition. So, the German's were sliting people's throats(if feeling generous).

If not, they would mildly incapacitate them and burn them alive. They saw evidence of this because their was a drugged group, on deck..

Medical experiments from what I understand included children enducing head trauma, so they could study it better...

Also, I'm not understanding your hypothetical. Japan had no ability to conquer and occupy the United States. Nor was that ever their intent...

Even though their Navy was very good, their army was piss poor..

I don't know how to quantify the difference between a fantastical Japanese occupation and Nazi concentration camps ..

I guess we could compare the Nanking massacre?

 

[Antipathy]

A couple of things, but obviously he didn't elaborate in great detail.

But, he was an officer and had to file observations in his reports...

Stuff that sticks out: they ran out of nerve gas at some point. They needed to save ammunition. So, the German's were sliting people's throats(if feeling generous).

If not, they would mildly incapacitate them and burn them alive. They saw evidence of this because their was a drugged group, on deck..

Medical experiments from what I understand included children enducing head trauma, so they could study it better...

Also, I'm not understanding your hypothetical. Japan had no ability to conquer and occupy the United States. Nor was that ever their intent...

Even though their Navy was very good, their army was piss poor..

I don't know how to quantify the difference between a fantastical Japanese occupation and Nazi concentration camps ..

I guess we could compare the Nanking massacre?

He's referencing the Japanese-American internment camps in the USA, which, while bad objectively, actually, interestingly enough, had a lower death rate (per capita deaths) than the rest of the continental USA. The workers were paid (a wage better than modern American minimum wage), fed, clothed, and housed. Sure, their housing was dirt cheap, they were isolated from their families, and they were technically imprisoned by a state they did nothing against, but it was still leagues better than being worked to death at gunpoint somewhere in Poland, or the Bataan Death March, or the gulags.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

He's referencing the Japanese-American internment camps in the USA, which, while bad objectively, actually, interestingly enough, had a lower death rate (per capita deaths) than the rest of the continental USA. The workers were paid (a wage better than modern American minimum wage), fed, clothed, and housed. Sure, their housing was dirt cheap, they were isolated from their families, and they were technically imprisoned by a state they did nothing against, but it was still leagues better than being worked to death at gunpoint somewhere in Poland, or the Bataan Death March, or the gulags.

I don't think he was referring to that. Read his comment, it's all based on hypotheticals...

"Might have been under such circumstances" I think refers to such these possible Japanese concentration camps...

Otherwise, if he was referring to internment camps: Its very hard to decipher from that paragraph...