The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mr.moon1488]

See, that's what we call good old fashioned brainwashing and you shouldn't let yourself fall prey to it.

In places like /pol/ shit gets repeated so often that spend enough time there and you'll start to believe whatever the hive mind says, doesn't make it true though.

It's a mirror image of what's also happening in SJW circles online and why for example transgenderism has become a social contagion, spend enough time in those online circles hearing the message of "gender is whatever you want it to be" over and over and you can be manipulated into believing it.

It's a very creepy and very dangerous phenomenon of the internet that these echo chambers can have a brain washing effect on people.

Lol how could that be "brainwashing," but the opposite opinion being pushed in the schools, on the media, and in almost every form of entertainment not be brainwashing? Even if you were an absolute autist and spent like 40+ hours a week lurking on boards like 8/pol/, chances are you've heard the diametrically opposed position to the /pol/ position far more often. Additionally, you're not getting branded a psychopath or anything on sites like that for wrong think, since no one knows who you are there anyway, but you are getting branded one if you fail to follow the dogmatic position anywhere else.

Edit:
This is also assuming you're from the U.S. If you're in much of Europe it's outright illegal to question the mainstream position.

 

[Emperor Julian]

The funny thing about Holocaust denial is that irl political ramifications and tabboo status are the only reason it's taken seriously on either side. If that wasnt an issue you'd be treated with the same level of respect you would if you denied the battle of hastings, the invention of the printing press or the existance of the Alien franchise. People would just laugh in your face because you're a retard.

 

[Dom Cruise]

Lol how could that be "brainwashing," but the opposite opinion being pushed in the schools, on the media, and in almost every form of entertainment not be brainwashing? Even if you were an absolute autist and spent like 40+ hours a week lurking on boards like 8/pol/, chances are you've heard the diametrically opposed position to the /pol/ position far more often. Additionally, you're not getting branded a psychopath or anything on sites like that for wrong think, since no one knows who you are there anyway, but you are getting branded one if you fail to follow the dogmatic position anywhere else.

Edit:
This is also assuming you're from the U.S. If you're in much of Europe it's outright illegal to question the mainstream position.

lmao, I knew someone would make that comparison.

But by that logic learning information about anything counts as brainwashing.

I'll tell you what the difference is, I think you're wrong, I think all the media and all the school lessons on the Holocaust one is likely to pick up on does not compare to the endless, daily barrage of antisemitism you see on a place like /pol/

How many times for example is the A Wyatt Mann "greedy Jew" image posted on /pol/ a day? Hundreds? Thousands? Certainly millions in the almost decade /pol/ has existed and even more and for longer if you count /new/ since I'm enough of an oldfag to remember /new/

There comes a time when you're seeing that image so much you just mentally supplant "Jew" with that image and now you're living in a literal cartoon reality.

People will spend all day on places like /pol/, obsessing over this stuff, do you think anyone spends every waking moment of their day watching movies or reading books about the Holocaust the way a hardcore /pol/ user obsesses over antisemitism?

It's memes buddy, this is the age of memes, memes have a way of worming into people's minds and making them believe whatever the meme is.

There's tons of examples of crazy, ridiculous bullshit that is growing in popularity these days because people fall down online rabbit holes and they see something get repeated so often that they start to assume "well if this many people are saying it, it must be true" like the antivax or flat Earther movements.

There's nothing before that can really compare to your modern internet meme, not school lessons, not movies, not books, there is nothing that is quite as repetitious as a modern internet meme.

It's a dangerous as hell situation we've found ourselves in thanks to the internet, our inability to process the information of memes just might be our undoing.

So no, I don't think your comparison is valid.

 

[Pampered Degenerate]

The guy calls himself a centrist and has previously condemned Communism. From his own userpage:

The fact that he calls himself "European" suggests otherwise. Also "atheist" is a tell.

Anyway, a few random thoughts, for what they're worth:

I visited Auschwitz about 15 years ago, and went inside what was claimed to be a gas chamber. In hindsight, I find it impossible to believe that it was actually a gas chamber. I don't recall if there were other chambers on site.

The fact that it is illegal in numerous countries to question the Holocaust is suspicious to me. In any case, the laws should be revoked.

On the other hand, "The greatest story never told" is childish propaganda that I switched off after 30 minutes.

 

[mr.moon1488]

lmao, I knew someone would make that comparison.

But by that logic learning information about anything counts as brainwashing.

I'll tell you what the difference is, I think you're wrong, I think all the media and all the school lessons on the Holocaust one is likely to pick up on does not compare to the endless, daily barrage of antisemitism you see on a place like /pol/

How many times for example is the A Wyatt Mann "greedy Jew" image posted on /pol/ a day? Hundreds? Thousands? Certainly millions in the almost decade /pol/ has existed and even more and for longer if you count /new/ since I'm enough of an oldfag to remember /new/

There comes a time when you're seeing that image so much you just mentally supplant "Jew" with that image and now you're living in a literal cartoon reality.

People will spend all day on places like /pol/, obsessing over this stuff, do you think anyone spends every waking moment of their day watching movies or reading books about the Holocaust the way a hardcore /pol/ user obsesses over antisemitism?

It's memes buddy, this is the age of memes, memes have a way of worming into people's minds and making them believe whatever the meme is.

There's tons of examples of crazy, ridiculous bullshit that is growing in popularity these days because people fall down online rabbit holes and they see something get repeated so often that they start to assume "well if this many people are saying it, it must be true" like the antivax or flat Earther movements.

There's nothing before that can really compare to your modern internet meme, not school lessons, not movies, not books, there is nothing that is quite as repetitious as a modern internet meme.

It's a dangerous as hell situation we've found ourselves in thanks to the internet, our inability to process the information of memes just might be our undoing.

So no, I don't think your comparison is valid.

lol, it's absolutely bonkers to try to compare a state-enforced position to shitposters saying edgy shit in a very tiny corner of the internet. No shitposter online is going to ruin your career, or put you in prison for questioning some aspect of the common dogma there. As for people "falling down an online rabbit hole," you've had plenty of people who have never been on the internet a day in their life, but upon further examination of Jewish culture have become hypercritical of them. One solid example of this being Martin Luther who was extremely pro-Jewish before actually examining how they operate within a society. I've heard the "forbidden fruits" argument used before when talking about modern criticism of Jews, and this is a legitimate view on things, but it also requires there to be some coercive explanation for why people are deviating from mainstream opinions.

tldr: Arguing that the side of the argument that is not using coercive tactics is the brainwashed side is just idiotic.

 

[Dom Cruise]

lol, it's absolutely bonkers to try to compare a state-enforced position to shitposters saying edgy shit in a very tiny corner of the internet. No shitposter online is going to ruin your career, or put you in prison for questioning some aspect of the common dogma there. As for people "falling down an online rabbit hole," you've had plenty of people who have never been on the internet a day in their life, but upon further examination of Jewish culture have become hypercritical of them. One solid example of this being Martin Luther who was extremely pro-Jewish before actually examining how they operate within a society. I've heard the "forbidden fruits" argument used before when talking about modern criticism of Jews, and this is a legitimate view on things, but it also requires there to be some coercive explanation for why people are deviating from mainstream opinions.

tldr: Arguing that the side of the argument that is not using coercive tactics is the brainwashed side is just idiotic.

My definition of brainwashing is something relentless and hardcore, like what a Religious cult does, something that breaks a person's psyche down, which is also what online echo chambers do.

Teaching people in school, making movies and writing books about a historical event is not "brainwashing", again, by your definition teaching human beings about anything is "brainwashing"

You learn a lot of shit in school, there's movies about all sorts of topics, there's countless history books about every historical subject.

There's no comparison between that and places like /pol/ that is laser focused on antisemitism and racism.

 

[Occam's Spork]

I personally have no doubt that what is called the holocaust did actually happen, given that there are so many first hand accounts of it, if nothing else.
The number of dead and the ability to use such a tragedy to influence politics going forward is the reason for the denialists and the ones trying to inflate the numbers.

The true number will never really be known, so it's kind of pointless to dwell on it, but the thing to really remember about it is that not everyone who died in a camp in the holocaust was murdered in a gas chamber in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Birkenau was the death factory with the crematoria and the "gas chambers". There were 4, one got blown up according to survivors.

Also, no US/French/British troops ever liberated an actual extermination camp, @Ihavetinyweewee, all of them were in Poland, and by the end of the war, the op Reinhard camps (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka is still there) were dismantled and turned into innocuous farms. But if you go to the sites of them, particularly Belzec, you will find bone chips in the woods from the water table pushing up the mass graves.

 

[Lemmingwise]

like what a Religious cult does, something that breaks a person's psyche down, which is also what online echo chambers do.

I agree that propaganda and group think happens a lot. Seeing speds debate about this stuff is great. Just keep in mind that the more thoughtful people would never connect their voice to something that gets them banned from numerous countries if they ever got prominent enough in whatever field in their life, so it's self-selecting the more reckless.

The idea that 5 media companies that own all media, full of professionals would somehow be worse at propaganda or creating echo chambers compared to a couple of edgey memesters is pretty fantastical.

You don't think mainstream media telling x type of person is okay to punch, that informs children how to reeducate their parents, that tries to get people to unfriend people of particular political positions is in the business of breaking down people's psyche to conform?

 

[mr.moon1488]

My definition of brainwashing is something relentless and hardcore, like what a Religious cult does, something that breaks a person's psyche down, which is also what online echo chambers do.

Teaching people in school, making movies and writing books about a historical event is not "brainwashing", again, by your definition teaching human beings about anything is "brainwashing"

You learn a lot of shit in school, there's movies about all sorts of topics, there's countless history books about every historical subject.

There's no comparison between that and places like /pol/ that is laser focused on antisemitism and racism.

Lol There's no "breaking a person's psyche down," you're not required to go on /pol/, you are however required to go to schools which will only present one side of the issue, and I'm pretty sure if you look at any "religious cult," you'll find that they used humiliation and mob rule enforcement as a modus of control. Furthermore, when you're talking about "online echo chambers," you have to be really stretching that term to include into that category sites which don't ban any particular speech. You can go on pretty much any /pol/ board anywhere and argue whatever the hell you want (e.g. Obamaleaf if he's even still around). If you were in fact an oldfag from the /new/ days, you'd know that it was much more libertarian-leaning and very slowly shifted to natsoc over time. Likewise, if you've ever gone to halfchan's IRC, you'll find that the mods are just a bunch of resetera fags, who are hardly trying to keep 4/pol/ as a natsoc safe-space. 8/pol/ had basically zero moderation when it was shut down, and you had people spam /leftypol/ shit there all the time. Imo, the main reason why there was a shift to natsoc was because as internet censorship kept getting worse, and worse, you started to have more people realize that corporations could be every bit as oppressive as governments given the right conditions.

 

[Pampered Degenerate]

I personally have no doubt that what is called the holocaust did actually happen, given that there are so many first hand accounts of it, if nothing else.
The number of dead and the ability to use such a tragedy to influence politics going forward is the reason for the denialists and the ones trying to inflate the numbers.

The true number will never really be known, so it's kind of pointless to dwell on it, but the thing to really remember about it is that not everyone who died in a camp in the holocaust was murdered in a gas chamber in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Birkenau was the death factory with the crematoria and the "gas chambers". There were 4, one got blown up according to survivors.

Also, no US/French/British troops ever liberated an actual extermination camp, @Ihavetinyweewee, all of them were in Poland, and by the end of the war, the op Reinhard camps (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka is still there) were dismantled and turned into innocuous farms. But if you go to the sites of them, particularly Belzec, you will find bone chips in the woods from the water table pushing up the mass graves.

But what are the defining features of the Holocaust? I believe that Nazi's hated Jëws, and killed some of them. They also killed a lot of other people, and a lot of Germans (including civilians) were also killed.

I'd argue that for most people's the defining features of the Holocaust are that a) Jëws were gassed, or otherwise systematically exterminated, in Nazi run death camps and b) that the number of Jëws killed was 6 million, or close to it. If one or both of those things are not true, then can we still say that the Holocaust happened?

 

[Occam's Spork]

The defining features of the holocaust is that a whole bunch of people including J.ews were systematically murdered by a methodology based on racial phylogeny and really a lot of anti semitism that wasn't 100% unwarranted. But when it came to the J.ews, they may have been mocked and persecuted, but the actual murder started after both the Wannsee conference, where they really just decided to kill them, and when Heydrich ate a partisan Czech grenade in his staff car. Once Heydrich died, the holocaust started in earnest. That was when they retaliated by slaughtering the entire town of Lidice and starting up the camps I mentioned before, which were only made to liquidate the Jewish ghettos in secret.
Sometime later, they decided to just kill all the j.ews in Hungary toward the end of the war, that's when Aucshwitz began to get it's real reputation. That's when you had hundreds or thousands a month being held or killed there, but again, that was Birkenau. Auschwitz was a labor/medical experiment/holding place, but you could still get killed any time if you were a prisoner.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

I personally have no doubt that what is called the holocaust did actually happen, given that there are so many first hand accounts of it, if nothing else.
The number of dead and the ability to use such a tragedy to influence politics going forward is the reason for the denialists and the ones trying to inflate the numbers.

The true number will never really be known, so it's kind of pointless to dwell on it, but the thing to really remember about it is that not everyone who died in a camp in the holocaust was murdered in a gas chamber in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Birkenau was the death factory with the crematoria and the "gas chambers". There were 4, one got blown up according to survivors.

Also, no US/French/British troops ever liberated an actual extermination camp, @Ihavetinyweewee, all of them were in Poland, and by the end of the war, the op Reinhard camps (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka is still there) were dismantled and turned into innocuous farms. But if you go to the sites of them, particularly Belzec, you will find bone chips in the woods from the water table pushing up the mass graves.

Auchwitz was not liberated by my grandfather's division. They liberated one of the sub camps of Fossenburg. That was in Czechoslovakia. I'm not sure if he was present for that...

My grandfather, however, was present at one of the camps liberated at Auchwitz. There was a bunch of subcamps. He was brought in as some sort of surveying team after the Red Army had moved in.

Also, one or two subcamps of Auchwitz was in Czechoslovakia...

 

[Lemmingwise]

Auchwitz was not liberated by my grandfather's division. They liberated one of the sub camps of Fossenburg. That was in Czechoslovakia. I'm not sure if he was present for that...

My grandfather, however, was present at one of the camps liberated at Auchwitz. There was a bunch of subcamps. He was brought in as some sort of surveying team after the Red Army had moved in.

Also, one or two subcamps of Auchwitz was in Czechoslovakia...

Your grandfather fought on the soviet front?

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

Your grandfather fought on the soviet front?

No, 1st infantry movements were through southern france, into southern Germany, cutting into Czechoslovakia.

I guess at some point during the Battle of the Bulge, he was at Auchwitz.

It's wierd he wasn't present at the BoB, his division was though....

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

Radical opinion: it happened and I don't care. It was neither the first, nor the last, nor the worst of the genocides of its era. No one alive is guilty of it, and no outstanding debts are owed this side of the veil. It's well past time we quit allowing ourselves to get melodramatic about it.

Hell yeah brother

I hold the unpopular stance of hating the Nazis but not really caring about the Holocaust that much. I hate that they were totalitarians who ground human liberty into dust for MUH VOLK. I hate that they were murderous bastards towards the Slavs and towards anybody who stood in the way of their conquest spree.

The Jews though? The vast, vast majority didn’t deserve it, they were just common folk, but it’s hard to feel sorry for them when it seems like they’re up to their ears in everything evil. They’re a victim, just one of those unsympathetic ones you don’t really give a shit about.

TLDR; I feel worse for the Slavs than the Jews.

 

[ZeCommissar]

Put me in the "Deniers" category. I've lurked 8ch /pol/ for so long to where some posts have made some compelling arguments against the Holocaust... so much so I decided to take the advice of a couple "beginner's red pill" guide and buy "Adolf Hitler, The Greatest Story Never Told".

If that makes me Autistic or a Nazi, then so be it.

You aren't the only poster on this site to mention "the greatest story never told" and I just don't get what the big deal about it is. It didn't "lift the wool over my eyes" anymore than a Neo-Nazi watching a documentary about how much "diversity is our strength" lifts the wool over theirs. It is literally just pro-Nazi propaganda that makes some very ridiculous and laughable claims. Like:

"The Einzatgruppen dindu nuffin. Dey were jus good bois killing only NKVD and communists. No innocents harmed! Especially Jews!" I remember the part that had a quote from Hitler going "I never wanted to go to war! It's the allies fault we went to war! I just wanted to solve the Polish question when it came to liberating poor Germans. I knew Roosevelt would have started a war in a conspiracy with Churchill! as early as 1939!" That's very funny considering the fact that the Nazis were ready to go to war in 1938 over the Sudetenland with France and Britain. I'm sure the fact that Germany had the most spending on the military on its GDP even greater than the US, USSR, or any other nation on Earth is Hitler not planning on going to war and just him "defending" Germany. Forget all the provocations the Nazis did, and surprise invasions on completely neutral countries that never planned on going to war anytime soon.

The part about Patton having "Nazi sympathies" is false as well. Patton did hate the fact that half of Europe fell to communism, and like most sensible people put Communism on the same level as Nazism. That doesn't mean he thought we "defeated the wrong enemy" it meant we were just trading one enemy for another. Did Churchill have Nazi Sympathies because he literally thought the exact same thing?

"All Europeans would have benefited if the Nazis won" yeah and all Asians would surely benefit from the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. Yeah i'm just sure the Germans had the best intentions for everyone. Just let them invade and occupy, it's for your own good!

I could go on and on but it's getting too off topic. Lets get back to the Holocaust.

I'd like to ask a question to anyone reading this.

It's a question I haven't seen asked before, so it just might spark some new discussion.

I was talking with some friends about the holocaust, as you do, and one asked "what does it matter if it's 6 or 5 million?"

On the one hand his question is stunning, because why wouldn't truthseeking matter? But on the other it was asked with honesty. Would you really look differently at the past whether it's 6 or 5 million?

So here then is my question, at what number would the holocaust cease to be a holocaust?

That is a very good question, and your friend has one of my most solid points against downplaying the numbers. Both you and your friend are right. We should seek out the truth in all matters, but if that truth is "only 4 million were killed, wait only 2 million, no actually only 1 million" it still wouldn't remove the fact that Nazism is an inherently violent ideology. If anything learning that the Holocaust killed less people would actually be great since that means less people died.

The Armenian genocide only has 1.5 million deaths listed, but Turkish people still vehemently deny it ever happened, and people still give Turkey shit over the denial. Genocides aren't about the numbers as much they are about intention. If you try to commit a genocide and only successfully kill 100,000 people does that make you any better than the person who killed a million? You both have the same intentions and hatred. To answer the question though I would consider anything less than 100,000 people for the Holocaust to be looked at in slightly different optics by me.

 

[Celebrate Nite]

You aren't the only poster on this site to mention "the greatest story never told" and I just don't get what the big deal about it is.

Considering at the time it was highly recommended I decided to give it a watch. I definitely didn't go into it thinking I would believe 100% of everything that was presented to me, but considering the comments around it were "this has things that places like the history channel won't bring up" I figured "ok, let's see what this has to offer"

I will admit that it does pull that "appeals to emotions" bullshit with the sappy music during the "sad" bits. I will also admit that Hitler himself was not perfect by any means. The whole "hey, let's start a war with Russia... on their territory... in the dead of winter" was one of his biggest mistakes ever.

 

[Cosmos]

The Holocaust is literally one of the most well-documented historical events and only retards deny it happened. The atrocities committed by the Nazis before and during WWII are very well-documented. I understand being skeptical about the exact number of fatalities but the fact remains that Nazi Germany definitely killed millions of people based on their ethnicity/disability/sexuality/etc.

I have zero patience for genocide denial of any kind. Genocides happen and the rest of the world just lets them happen most of the time. There's nothing unbelievable about these atrocities, unfortunately. And more to the point, in every case I've seen genocide denial is thinly-cloaked prejudice towards the victimized group. Like, look at Turkey: they deny the Armenian genocide happened (or outright say it was justified) so they can deny any justice to Armenians (even just a simple "Sorry our ancestors fucked up"), but their stance basically boils down to "The Armenian genocide didn't happen but here's why it totally should have." Holocaust deniers are the same way, they'll tell you about how it was all a hoax but also here's why those fucking Jews are vermin who should be eradicated.

That is a very good question, and your friend has one of my most solid points against downplaying the numbers. Both you and your friend are right. We should seek out the truth in all matters, but if that truth is "only 4 million were killed, wait only 2 million, no actually only 1 million" it still wouldn't remove the fact that Nazism is an inherently violent ideology. If anything learning that the Holocaust killed less people would actually be great since that means less people died.

The Armenian genocide only has 1.5 million deaths listed, but Turkish people still vehemently deny it ever happened, and people still give Turkey shit over the denial. Genocides aren't about the numbers as much they are about intention. If you try to commit a genocide and only successfully kill 100,000 people does that make you any better than the person who killed a million? You both have the same intentions and hatred. To answer the question though I would consider anything less than 100,000 people for the Holocaust to be looked at in slightly different optics by me.

I completely agree with this. Genocide is inherently one of the most evil things there is, imo. A lot of people forget that genocide isn't simply about killing, it's also about trying to completely eradicate an ethnicity/culture/etc from the face of the Earth (and even sometimes from history itself). That's why the Nazis were big into plundering and trying to destroy certain cultures. It's also why a lot of genocides involve mass rape/sterilization of the victimized group's women, so they can try to prevent that group from reproducing itself.

So yeah, genocide boils down to "I hate this group of people so much I want to do whatever I can to eradicate it." I don't toss around the word "evil" a lot but that to me is the definition of evil.

 

[Lemmingwise]

You aren't the only poster on this site to mention "the greatest story never told" and I just don't get what the big deal about it is. It didn't "lift the wool over my eyes" anymore than a Neo-Nazi watching a documentary about how much "diversity is our strength" lifts the wool over theirs. It is literally just pro-Nazi propaganda that makes some very ridiculous and laughable claims. Like:

"The Einzatgruppen dindu nuffin. Dey were jus good bois killing only NKVD and communists. No innocents harmed! Especially Trump's Chosen People!" I remember the part that had a quote from Hitler going "I never wanted to go to war! It's the allies fault we went to war! I just wanted to solve the Polish question when it came to liberating poor Germans. I knew Roosevelt would have started a war in a conspiracy with Churchill! as early as 1939!" That's very funny considering the fact that the Nazis were ready to go to war in 1938 over the Sudetenland with France and Britain. I'm sure the fact that Germany had the most spending on the military on its GDP even greater than the US, USSR, or any other nation on Earth is Hitler not planning on going to war and just him "defending" Germany. Forget all the provocations the Nazis did, and surprise invasions on completely neutral countries that never planned on going to war anytime soon.

The part about Patton having "Nazi sympathies" is false as well. Patton did hate the fact that half of Europe fell to communism, and like most sensible people put Communism on the same level as Nazism. That doesn't mean he thought we "defeated the wrong enemy" it meant we were just trading one enemy for another. Did Churchill have Nazi Sympathies because he literally thought the exact same thing?

"All Europeans would have benefited if the Nazis won" yeah and all Asians would surely benefit from the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. Yeah i'm just sure the Germans had the best intentions for everyone. Just let them invade and occupy, it's for your own good!

I could go on and on but it's getting too off topic. Lets get back to the Holocaust.



That is a very good question, and your friend has one of my most solid points against downplaying the numbers. Both you and your friend are right. We should seek out the truth in all matters, but if that truth is "only 4 million were killed, wait only 2 million, no actually only 1 million" it still wouldn't remove the fact that Nazism is an inherently violent ideology. If anything learning that the Holocaust killed less people would actually be great since that means less people died.

The Armenian genocide only has 1.5 million deaths listed, but Turkish people still vehemently deny it ever happened, and people still give Turkey shit over the denial. Genocides aren't about the numbers as much they are about intention. If you try to commit a genocide and only successfully kill 100,000 people does that make you any better than the person who killed a million? You both have the same intentions and hatred. To answer the question though I would consider anything less than 100,000 people for the Holocaust to be looked at in slightly different optics by me.

I agree that my friend had a good point too, which is what got me thinking.

I personally don't know any conflict in history that has led to such transferences of wealth and political immunity as has the holocaust and in that sense I do think the difference is huge.

Since nobody answered my question, I'll try to attempt to answer it myself.

First of all holocaust itself is a refference to, burnt offering. The amount that were supposedly burnt makes no sense at all. So they might still be dead, but then the term becomes a misnomer. But that was something to tackle in the 70s when it first got purchase. Since holocaust doesn't really have a relation to gas chambers in meaning besides this event, I think whether it's gas chambers or not is irrelevant to the term.

Then the numbers.

6 million+ sure, it's the prophecied number that has religious significance and that was refferenced many times in newspapers in the 3 decades leading up to the second world war. It's also the number that Wiesenthal admitted making up for political expediency. 5 million nonjews and 6 million jews or more? Holocaust.

The lowest number I've heard from people I presumed to be nazi is 271.000 of homosexuals, gypsies, jews and others together, based on the red cross report. I'd say at that point it wouldn't really deserve such a unique brand name and should just be called something like the nazi perpetrated genocide or something like that.

It's notable that the side being called deniers defacto agree that there was large scale death. The disagreement is of course also over the intentions, but I'll leave that outside the scope of thiz post.

So where would lay the line between 11 million and 271.000?

Judging by the undoubtedly flawed wikipedia list of genocides by death toll, the cool names start after at 7.5 million but not at 3.0 million. Since some stickyness is afforded due to how familiar people are with the name, I'd say the line is somewhere between 1 and 2 million where you say, this wasn't a very special genocide.

Fight me on this, people.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

I agree that my friend had a good point too, which is what got me thinking.

I personally don't know any conflict in history that has led to such transferences of wealth and political immunity as has the holocaust and in that sense I do think the difference is huge.

Since nobody answered my question, I'll try to attempt to answer it myself.

First of all holocaust itself is a refference to, burnt offering. The amount that were supposedly burnt makes no sense at all. So they might still be dead, but then the term becomes a misnomer. But that was something to tackle in the 70s when it first got purchase. Since holocaust doesn't really have a relation to gas chambers in meaning besides this event, I think whether it's gas chambers or not is irrelevant to the term.

Then the numbers.

6 million+ sure, it's the prophecied number that has religious significance and that was refferenced many times in newspapers in the 3 decades leading up to the second world war. It's also the number that Wiesenthal admitted making up for political expediency. 5 million nonjews and 6 million Trump's Chosen People or more? Holocaust.

The lowest number I've heard from people I presumed to be nazi is 271.000 of homosexuals, gypsies, Trump's Chosen People and others together, based on the red cross report. I'd say at that point it wouldn't really deserve such a unique brand name and should just be called something like the nazi perpetrated genocide or something like that.

It's notable that the side being called deniers defacto agree that there was large scale death. The disagreement is of course also over the intentions, but I'll leave that outside the scope of thiz post.

So where would lay the line between 11 million and 271.000?

Judging by the undoubtedly flawed wikipedia list of genocides by death toll, the cool names start after at 7.5 million but not at 3.0 million. Since some stickyness is afforded due to how familiar people are with the name, I'd say the line is somewhere between 1 and 2 million where you say, this wasn't a very special genocide.

Fight me on this, people.

Ok, do you believe 20 million Russians died on their front?

If yes, what's the difference? The Russians were notorious for propaganda and false statistics...

Yet, I don't see a reason why that number would be wrong. What is to be gained?

More sympathy?

I do agree that there was many people who profiteered on the holocaust

I would say most weren't even victims.

But, what about the people who were? Who didn't ask for anything other than to listen...

Are they bullshitters?