The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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All I know, my grandfather was at the liberation of Auschwitz.

He survived Omaha beach being 1 of 2 officers in his company to live. The other guy lost both of his legs...
I guess at some point during the Battle of the Bulge, he was at Auchwitz.

So your grandfather stormed Omaha beach, then joined a new army group to fight at Ardennes, where he was considered surplus to needs against the might of the German army and sent to Poland to walk westwards with the Red Army? Dude.
 
So your grandfather stormed Omaha beach, then joined a new army group to fight at Ardennes, where he was considered surplus to needs against the might of the German army and sent to Poland to walk westwards with the Red Army? Dude.
He was injured during the campaign in southern france. At that point he may been assigned to divisional HQ. I'm not totally sure...

I never said he was at Ardeenes, I don't know where divisional HQ for 1st infantry was. It could have very well been in the Czechslovakia, since I believe it was secured by then...

But, that's where the 1st infantry division was, at the time, Battle of the Bulge. Specificalky, the Hurtgen Forest(they just finished fighting before BoB started)...
 
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Ok, do you believe 20 million Russians died on their front?

If yes, what's the difference? The Russians were notorious for propaganda and false statistics...

Yet, I don't see a reason why that number would be wrong. What is to be gained?

More sympathy?

I do agree that there was many people who profiteered on the holocaust

I would say most weren't even victims.

But, what about the people who were? Who didn't ask for anything other than to listen...

Are they bullshitters?

Bit of a strange question to be honest. "are victims bullshitters?"

The way that question is phrased already assumes sequence of events, like asking "do raped women lie?" Or "do abused men always tell the truth?"

  1. No matter how much of a victim someone is, it is still possible for them to lie as long as they can speak and some subsect of victims will lie.
  2. The lie may be part of what the claimed victimisation is about. It's like the "raped women don't lie" meme. Even if that were true, you still have to identify the non-raped women from the raped women, as there is no reason why someone couldn't claim to be raped when they're not.
  3. Besides the victim status itself, it is also possible for victims to exaggerate the degree of victimisation.

So to get back to your question. Are victims bullshitters? No. Of they're victims, then they're not bullshitting about being victims, because the qualification itself is that they're victims.

Do some that claim to be victims lie? Of course. This particular lie led to the "It was real in my mind" meme.
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Note that it doesn't say anything about the veracity of the holocaust. Only something we all know. That people can lie.

As for your other questions.

Is it illegal to question the number of russian deaths in my country? In Russia itself?

Do people who investigate details about it in russia that result in conclusions that deviate from mainstream get harassed, imprisoned etcetera? Were the millions of russians casualties of war or intentionally murdered? That's the central difference between the two things you're comparing.

As to what can be gained, I've already discussed that. Lots if money, political immunity. But there are many more motivations. The guy above did it for fame. I think spite and vengeance can be another motive. I'm not saying that everything was a lie. I'm saying there is more than ample motive.

If you consider the theory that the holocaust was smaller than it is in the official version and if you consider that it wasn't a complete death machine. Assume that for a second, the way you asked me to assume whether victims could be liars. Would it really be hard to understand that someone like Otto Frank, anne franks father, would have motive to embellish events to exact greater vengeance on the people who brought the conditions that caused his daughter to die hundreds of miles from her home?

I think in essence you were asking about motives, so I return the question about motives.
 
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Ok, do you believe 20 million Russians died on their front?

If yes, what's the difference? The Russians were notorious for propaganda and false statistics...

Yet, I don't see a reason why that number would be wrong. What is to be gained?

More sympathy?

I do agree that there was many people who profiteered on the holocaust

I would say most weren't even victims.

But, what about the people who were? Who didn't ask for anything other than to listen...

Are they bullshitters?
Why wouldn't the USSR lie? Many of the estimates for Holodomor alone are upwards of 7 million deaths, and the very lowest estimates are still around 4 million. We don't even know the actual number for the purges committed by Stalin despite there being some physical records of this which have gotten out over the years. The whole thing of it is, is that the USSR had even up to that point a very well established track record of lying about genocides for political purposes, and they had the means to lie about Holocaust numbers since all of the death camps fell on their side of the border after the war ended. Likewise, almost everyone at any real level of leadership within the USSR was at least part Jewish which is actually true to this day. In addition to that fact alone being a very strong motive, wouldn't it make sense for them to try and play up the Holocaust to take attention off of them?

At the end of the day, the only group that ever had access to any evidence which could give a real indication of the scale of the Holocaust had motives, means, and opportunity to alter evidence, and had an extensive track record of doing so. Additionally, there was no way in hell the other allied powers would ever even try to call them on this since it would put them in a politically inconvenient position as well. Furthermore, typically when history is examined you have multiple perspectives look at things to try to get to some degree of consensus as to what actually happened, clearly that hasn't happened in regards to the Holocaust since at best questioning the common opinion will end your career, and at the worst can actually get you sent to prison.
 
Bit of a strange question to be honest.
"are victims bullshitters?"

The way that question is phrased already assumes sequence of events, like asking "do raped women lie?" Or "do abused men always tell the truth?"

First, no matter how much of a victim someone is, it is still possible for them to lie as long as they can speak and some subsect of victims will lie.

Second, the lie may be part of what the claimed victimisation is about. It's like the "raped women don't lie" meme. Even if that were true, you still have to identify the non-raped women from the raped women, as there is no reason why someone couldn't claim to be raped when they're not.

Third besides the victim status itself, it is also possible for victims to exaggerate the degree of victimisation.

So to get back to your question. Are victims bullshitters? No. Of they're victims, then they're not bullshitting about being victims, because the qualification itself is that they're victims.

Do some that claim to be victims lie? Of course. This particular lie led to the "it was not true. But in my mind, it was real".
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Note that it doesn't say anything about the veracity of the holocaust. Only something we all know. That people can lie.

As for your other questions.

Is it illegal to question the number of russian deaths in my country? In Russia itself?

Do people who investigate details about it in russia that result in conclusions that deviate from mainstream get harassed, imprisoned etcetera? Were the millions of russians casualties of war or intentionally murdered? That's the central difference between the two things you're comparing.

As to what can be gained, I've already discussed that. Lots if money, political immunity. But there are many more motivations. The guy above did it for fame. I think spite and vengeance can be another motive. I'm not saying that everything was a lie. I'm saying there is more than ample motive.

If you consider the theory that the holocaust was smaller than it is in the official version and if you consider that it wasn't a complete death machine. Assume that for a second, the way you asked me to assume whether victims could be liars. Would it really be hard to understand that someone like Otto Frank, anne franks father, would have motive to embellish events to exact greater vengeance on the people who brought the conditions that caused his daughter to die hundreds of miles from her home?

I think in essence you were asking about motives, so I return the question about motives.

Ok, so you asked earlier about how many holocaust death discrepancies it took for one to change your mind...

Of the about 3.5 million people that survived the holocaust, and other first hand accounts. Approximately, how many of them are liars?

It isn't illegal in my country to question the holocaust. We don't have anti-semetic laws. So with that established, it doesn't actually address the question. The validity of the deaths of the Russian front.

Is the criteria for that different because it is profitterred less?

As I have said, I agree that there are people who profittered from it. Just like the non-victim above who wanted attention.

What about the moon landings? Do you question the validity of that? That would be much easier to fake than the holocaust it seems...

People lied about serving in wars, did those wars not happen? Charlatans exist with virtually any publicized event.

Also, why would it matter if Otto Frank embellished? He doesn't really need to. He lost his family to concentration camps. They have German ledgers which showed where Anne Frank died.

Now, if you want to ask when she died, that's up for debate...
 
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Likewise, almost everyone at any real level of leadership within the USSR was at least part Jewish which is actually true to this day.

There still is a USSR high command today? 8)

Ok, so you asked earlier about how many holocaust death discrepancies it took for one to change your mind...

No, get it right, I was asking simply what death count would warrant the special moniker "holocaust".
Not discreprancies. Not relating to the changing of mind. It was a simple definition question.

Also, why would it matter if Otto Frank embellished? He doesn't really need to. He lost his family to concentration camps. They have German ledgers which showed where Anne Frank died.

Well thank you for being clear with your perspective on lying. I agree he doesn't need to lie. I agree he has plenty of motive and reason for revenge. I agree that Anne Frank died in a Nazi German camp. But your question is still illuminating. Why would it matter if he embellished? Well, because it wouldn't be the truth.

If you killed my mother in front of my eyes, I could then claim you first raped and then killed her. I would have motive. People would kinda be understanding. It's just an embellishment. But does it not matter at all whether you raped her first or not? Does truth cease to matter if you have sufficient cause for redress?




All I know, my grandfather was at the liberation of Auschwitz.

He survived Omaha beach being 1 of 2 officers in his company to live.

I know odd things happen during wars, but how did an American get to the russian front to be there to liberate auschwitz as part of the Red Army?


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auschwitz.PNG


He was injured during the campaign in southern france. At that point he may been assigned to divisional HQ. I'm not totally sure...

I never said he was at Ardeenes, I don't know where divisional HQ for 1st infantry was. It could have very well been in the Czechslovakia, since I believe it was secured by then...

But, that's where the 1st infantry division was, at the time, Battle of the Bulge. Specificalky, the Hurtgen Forest(they just finished fighting before BoB started)...

Why would the US divisional HQ be in Czechzslovakia? I made a map to try and make sense of what you're saying and what the movements of the 1st infantry were. It doesn't make sense at all for him to have been at the liberation of auschwitz.
1st infanty.PNG

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Supposedly someone injured in the road to the battle of the bulge, was sent 600 miles to a divisional headquarters in an already secured czechoslovakia. An already secured area which they would then later liberate a couple of cities of when their army finally got there.


I think it's one of those things where old people tell their stories and they embellish their stories, or misspeak and instead of correcting themselves, continue. Or misremember. I'm just saying that the facts as you line them up are very hard to believe. Maybe he was there at the liberation of another camp? Maybe he saw the auschwitz camp later after it had already been liberated?

But as you said earlier, it doesn't matter if it's embellished or not, right? Who cares about truth when there's justifiable cause to be aggresive towards someone, right?

At first I took your claim of your grandfather finding piles of naked children at face value, but as much as I don't expect someone to make that up, the facts don't seem to stack up right. Tell me where I'm wrong. I want to hear what mistake I'm making, if any.
 
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What about the moon landings? Do you question the validity of that? That would be much easier to fake than the holocaust it seems...

Interestingly their's very little physical evidence for the battle of Hastings, to the point we do not actually know it's location,

For some mysterious reason people don't contest that it occured however.
 
There still is a USSR high command today? 8)



No, get it right, I was asking simply what death count would warrant the special moniker "holocaust".
Not discreprancies. Not relating to the changing of mind. It was a simple definition question.



Well thank you for being clear with your perspective on lying. I agree he doesn't need to lie. I agree he has plenty of motive and reason for revenge. I agree that Anne Frank died in a Nazi German camp. But your question is still illuminating. Why would it matter if he embellished? Well, because it wouldn't be the truth.

If you killed my mother in front of my eyes, I could then claim you first raped and then killed her. I would have motive. People would kinda be understanding. It's just an embellishment. But does it not matter at all whether you raped her first or not? Does truth cease to matter if you have sufficient cause for redress?






I know odd things happen during wars, but how did an American get to the russian front to be there to liberate auschwitz as part of the Red Army?


View attachment 1238760
View attachment 1238752



Why would the US divisional HQ be in Czechzslovakia? I made a map to try and make sense of what you're saying and what the movements of the 1st infantry were. It doesn't make sense at all for him to have been at the liberation of auschwitz.
View attachment 1238823
View attachment 1238806
Supposedly someone injured in the road to the battle of the bulge, was sent 600 miles to a divisional headquarters in an already secured czechoslovakia. An already secured area which they would then later liberate a couple of cities of when their army finally got there.


I think it's one of those things where old people tell their stories and they embellish their stories, or misspeak and instead of correcting themselves, continue. Or misremember. I'm just saying that the facts as you line them up are very hard to believe. Maybe he was there at the liberation of another camp? Maybe he saw the auschwitz camp later after it had already been liberated?

But as you said earlier, it doesn't matter if it's embellished or not, right? Who cares about truth when there's justifiable cause to be aggresive towards someone, right?

At first I took your claim of your grandfather finding piles of naked children at face value, but as much as I don't expect someone to make that up, the facts don't seem to stack up right. Tell me where I'm wrong. I want to hear what mistake I'm making, if any.
Lol I meant there's still a lot of Jews in Russian leadership, Putin himself for one.
 
All I know, my grandfather was at the liberation of Auschwitz.

He survived Omaha beach being 1 of 2 officers in his company to live. The other guy lost both of his legs...

But, that didn't break my grandfather. He could compartmentalize that...

No, what broke my grandfather was the shit he saw at the concentration camp...

The stuff he saw made him a raging alcholic for most of his life...

So, you could debate the exact death toll if you wish...

But nothing, not even Normandy, or the Hedgerows of France with the 1st Infantry Division could prepare him for the carnage he saw that day....

It was so inhuman it was almost alien...

Bodies of naked children were stacked in piles like garbage. That's just the beginning...
Not to be more of a pedantic asshole than I already am, but how could your grandfather have been in the Red Army and a GI? I'm assuming he probably liberated Dachau or Buchenwald rather than Auschwitz, which was hundreds of miles east of the Allied lines.
 
Lol I meant there's still a lot of Jews in Russian leadership, Putin himself for one.

Are you high or just plain stupid?

Vladimir Putin's a Russian nationalist first and foremost.

Even if he's ethnically Hebrew (which there's no evidence to suggest he is) he's very much a Slavic Russian culturally.

At this point, I can't tell if this is trolling or just /pol/
 
Genocides aren't really that uncommon. The Rwandan genocide was less than thirty years ago.
People only care about the Rwandan Genocide because its victims were the ultimate winners of the war. No one gives a shit about how the RPF's victory led to a mass exodus of Hutu from Rwanda into neighboring Zaire, which ultimately led to millions of people dying in the Congo Wars, or how the RPF engaged in retaliatory executions against their enemies and innocent civilians.
EDIT: Probably the worst recent genocide is the one least spoken about, i.e. the genocide of the Pygmies during the Congo Wars. These people were enslaved and eaten by Rebels and government troops alike, and have never done anything to justify being murdered or treated like actual livestock.

Lol I meant there's still a lot of Jews in Russian leadership, Putin himself for one.

I don't know if you're joking or not, but Putin is not a Jew. He is the ultimate example of the Slavic ubermensch. That being said, the few Jews who didn't leave Russia as the USSR collapsed got involved in businesses to become ultra wealthy oligarchs, and exploited ridiculously lax economic liberalization methods and bribery, but there are a lot of non-Jewish oligarchs too.

I'm also surprised no one's called Putin an antisemite for going after Khodorkovsky, when the West is all too willing to label Orban an antisemite for rightly calling out George Soros for his bullshit.
 
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There still is a USSR high command today? 8)



No, get it right, I was asking simply what death count would warrant the special moniker "holocaust".
Not discreprancies. Not relating to the changing of mind. It was a simple definition question.



Well thank you for being clear with your perspective on lying. I agree he doesn't need to lie. I agree he has plenty of motive and reason for revenge. I agree that Anne Frank died in a Nazi German camp. But your question is still illuminating. Why would it matter if he embellished? Well, because it wouldn't be the truth.

If you killed my mother in front of my eyes, I could then claim you first raped and then killed her. I would have motive. People would kinda be understanding. It's just an embellishment. But does it not matter at all whether you raped her first or not? Does truth cease to matter if you have sufficient cause for redress?






I know odd things happen during wars, but how did an American get to the russian front to be there to liberate auschwitz as part of the Red Army?


View attachment 1238760
View attachment 1238752



Why would the US divisional HQ be in Czechzslovakia? I made a map to try and make sense of what you're saying and what the movements of the 1st infantry were. It doesn't make sense at all for him to have been at the liberation of auschwitz.
View attachment 1238823
View attachment 1238806
Supposedly someone injured in the road to the battle of the bulge, was sent 600 miles to a divisional headquarters in an already secured czechoslovakia. An already secured area which they would then later liberate a couple of cities of when their army finally got there.


I think it's one of those things where old people tell their stories and they embellish their stories, or misspeak and instead of correcting themselves, continue. Or misremember. I'm just saying that the facts as you line them up are very hard to believe. Maybe he was there at the liberation of another camp? Maybe he saw the auschwitz camp later after it had already been liberated?

But as you said earlier, it doesn't matter if it's embellished or not, right? Who cares about truth when there's justifiable cause to be aggresive towards someone, right?

At first I took your claim of your grandfather finding piles of naked children at face value, but as much as I don't expect someone to make that up, the facts don't seem to stack up right. Tell me where I'm wrong. I want to hear what mistake I'm making, if any.

In regards to what amount of deaths would qualify a holocaust. I would say a couple million.
We are both asking quatifying questions. My question still stands..

In regards to Otto Frank, the reason why it doesn't matter if there was an embellishment: it doesn't change the validity of the holocaust.

You could corroborate the fate of his family through the perpetrators own records...

Likewise, if I, hypothetically, killed your mom and you added rape to the charges: I still killed your mother. There was still a crime committed. It was still heinous...

As far as my grandfather's accounts, I already addressed this in a previous post:

1st infantry did not liberate Auschwitz. They liberated sub camps of Fossenberg. He never mentioned it. So, I have no idea if he was there or not ..

During the liberation of Auschwitz, the 1st infantry division was at the Hurtgen forest. Yet, as I said, he was not at the Battle of Bulge(which was odd). I have no idea where divisional HQ was, if he was assigned(that was speculation on my part)...

We only got three things out of him: Omaha beach, getting injured in southern France, his accounts of Auschwitz.

The Red Army had already moved in. He was part of some surveying group(with The US Army). I don't know the exact dates and it could have been week or weeks after the Russian liberated it.

But, considering there was still bodies of children lying around(from his account): I can't imagine it was a long time afterwards...

But he distinctly said Auschwitz(I can verify that)...

I also think it would be an odd thing to embellish, considering he had two Silver Stars for valor. We didn't even find out about that until we read his citations at his death. He could have bullshitted about that all day...

I also forgot to mention: what about the accounts of SS officers(and the like) who admitted committing these atrocities?
 
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I mean we have Himmler on tape telling his SS bros "hey member when we killed all those Jews? isn't it great that we were strong enough to even kill the kids so they couldn't grow up and avenge their parents?"

I don't get into holocaust denial because it's a waste of time dealing with dishonest people making dishonest arguments. But do they even attempt to explain away Himmler's speech? Or is it just "muh Jews faked it"?
 
Are you high or just plain stupid?

Vladimir Putin's a Russian nationalist first and foremost.

Even if he's ethnically Hebrew (which there's no evidence to suggest he is) he's very much a Slavic Russian culturally.

At this point, I can't tell if this is trolling or just /pol/

I wonder if that guy might saw that song made by Shiksa Goddess who was once on Youtube but reuploaded on Bitchute about Putin and the chosen ones? :thinking:

 
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I mean we have Himmler on tape telling his SS bros "hey member when we killed all those Trump's Chosen People? isn't it great that we were strong enough to even kill the kids so they couldn't grow up and avenge their parents?"

I don't get into holocaust denial because it's a waste of time dealing with dishonest people making dishonest arguments. But do they even attempt to explain away Himmler's speech? Or is it just "muh Trump's Chosen People faked it"?

He asked for someone to give him counters. I'm just being courteous...

I'm not trying to convice anybody, that's a waste of time...

People are free to believe what they believe...
 
Holocaust happened.

Also the state of Israel was created as a direct result.

Who the fuck gets a free country after getting genocided?

Something doesn't add up.

Just asking questions, man.

Who invades two countries and does special operations in lots more because only 3,000 people died in a terror attack? Something doesn't add up.
 
The funny thing about Holocaust denial is that irl political ramifications and tabboo status are the only reason it's taken seriously on either side. If that wasnt an issue you'd be treated with the same level of respect you would if you denied the battle of hastings, the invention of the printing press or the existance of the Alien franchise. People would just laugh in your face because you're a tard.
this was really well said.

There's a philosophical/sociological concept called 'the other', or 'otherness'. I'm not going to explain it in detail (if you're curious I recommend Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex or anything by Kant on the subject) but what's pertinent to the discussion is that by nature we're predisposed to not like groups that don't resemble or behave like ourselves. It's a cornerstone in how majorities and minorities interact with each other, and it's also why genocide happens time and time again.

Genocide and mass murders in general have been happening almost regularly for thousands of years, and following this idea of our propensity to think of minority groups as 'the other', it's built into human nature. The only time this becomes suddenly disputable is when the holocaust gets brought up. For some magical reason the holocaust is the only time in history where genocide is some unthinkable atrocity that mankind would NEVER commit. It's the only time in history where mankind's brutality and predisposition to hating the other is called into suspicion.

tl;dr read a book for once instead of parroting opinions from /pol/ or reddit. you will learn a lot more.
 
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