The Last of Us Franchise - Because it's apparently a franchise now. This thread has been double-DMCA’d by Sony Interactive Entertainment.

Titos said:
Basically a pict/celtic chick who has schizophrenia is exiled from her clan comes back from exile to find her husbando has been murdered by vikangs. Then goes on to try and find a way to save her husbandos soul.
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It also has really, really good face acting. Face acting? Yes. They mocapped Melinda Juergens's facial expressions during the voice action sessions for Senua and despite not being a real actress she really sells the whole thing.
 
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LightDragonman1 said:
On a different note, one guy I was talking to argued that Joel having an undignified death makes sense, because, in his words, "revenge stories make a lot more sense when someone dies as undignified as possible rather than in a death that feels satisfying. Plus it's the Last of Us there's like one character in the first game that dies with dignity."

Thoughts?
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In short, yes. Revenge stories work when the death is near meaningless. That despair is what drives the character because the situation was so pointless it enrages them into giving meaning to that death. Even if all it results in is the death of those who wronged them.

It's all about giving meaning to an ending.

Now, when you do go down this route you have two main tropes to follow.

One is to succumb, the become part of the cycle and simply kill the one who wronged you. It's very hollow justice.

You then have forgiveness, even driving to the point of finding and near killing the one who did it before showing mercy and forgiveness where they showed none.

Both show character growth in different ways.


Secret Asshole said:
Revenge stories are better when the death has a purposeful metaphor. Revenge tales need satisfying deaths, either way. Otherwise its just boring. 'Undignified' deaths are usually reserved for cocky, assholish antagonists, not former protagonists. Not to mention the death itself serves no meaning except as a motivation for another character. This is cliched and pure hackery. That death needs to mean something. Randomly getting your head bashed in is a meaningless statement. His death only serves to drive the plot. Its a very lazy device. It'd make far more sense to draw out Joel's death, with Abby taunting Ellie. Abby HAS to be a villain. Otherwise this doesn't work. For example, Ellie is chasing Abby while she's getting messages from Joel over the radio. This cat and mouse game continues until Ellie finds out Joel was dead the entire time and her pursuit was fruitless. The messages were pre-recorded. Abby's point is to rip apart Ellie. To sink her to the depths of absolute despair. This has meaning, because Joel's death reflect's Abby's own loss and agony, and she wanted Ellie to experience it. The false hope of saving someone she loves. To see that absolutely crushing moment on Ellie's face, because her father was sacrificed for her. That is a meaningful death. It reflect's Abby and Ellie's motivations and Joel's importance and the lengths Ellie will go to save him. But Abby wanted to instill a sense of hopelessness and despair in Ellie. It isn't simply about killing Joel. Its about completely breaking Ellie to the depths of Abby's own madness.

That's what revenge is all about. Revenge needs to have meaning and some satisfaction. By doing this, you draw out the emotion within the player, your desperation mimic's Ellie's. You think Joel is alive, so you go in hard. Joel's death is meaningful, because we don't expect it. We expect Abby to just kill him, but her entire point was to inflict the same emotional damage she felt on Ellie. That will then reflect on the player. The endgame is you just picking Abby apart in a fire-fight, but she just laughs and says she never expected to survive. She taunts Ellie to the last moment before Ellie puts a bullet in her head. Maybe Abby herself has a kid, and he's left all alone. Maybe Abby was a terrible parent and neglected him to the point of malnourishment because of her obsession on revenge. Ellie, angry at Abby, but realizing she'd be just like her if she harmed her child. So she takes care of him, because that will complete the circle, and make Joel's sacrifice and influence on Ellie worth something. Because Joel was a stranger, and taught her kindness. She thinks of Joel and their time together, and how he wouldn't want Ellie to leave an innocent child to the wolves, who was mistreated. This shows that their bond goes beyond his death and they're still connected. It makes Joel's death meaningful. Maybe he even recorded his last message to her and hid it from Abby before he died. Due to this, she doesn't become like Abby. She retains her sanity, and meaning in life, and vows to carry Joel's kindness and understand with her for the rest of her life. But that ending would be too 'happy'. Instead we get a sadistic, pointless death just to drive home 'lol nihilism makes me smart, am i rite?'.

Abby needs to be the antagonist here. And there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. She needs to be the main antagonist. She needs to be emotionally deranged and sadistic. She needs to be a completely broken person. Because no one who is hell bent on revenge for years and years and years would have a healthy outlook. It isn't possible. She wouldn't be well adjusted. She'd be unhinged, almost animalistic. She wouldn't be enjoying herself or making sick gains. Someone who is obsessed about revenge for that long will not be psychologically well.

In terms of story, it speaks disrespect to the original source. As a former protagonist, Joel's death should be meaningful. Instead, it negates his sacrifices, trials and tribulations in the first game. Joel dies pathetically. As a writer, you don't want your audience to be pissed at you by having a character they're attached to die in an undignified manner. Undignified deaths are rarely good for protagonists. The only way it really works is to show someone's hubris getting the better of them. A secondary protagonist getting cocky or overconfident and then dying because of his ego in a terrible fashion. This isn't that.

I don't care if its TLOU or otherwise. Respecting your protagonist and the audience's attachment to them are first and foremost. I'm sorry, your friend or whatever is an idiot. Random NPCs or people that aren't protagonists can die undignified deaths if you want to show the cruelty of the apocalypse. Protagonists are supposed to die with purpose. Its incredibly nihilistic and lazy to have a protagonist die in this fashion. And everything about revenge stories are MEANINGFUL deaths, whether it be a protagonist or antagonist. Otherwise they're just boring trash.

Joel is actually no longer a character in the way he dies. He is simply a plot point. There's little to no meaning behind his death. There's no metaphor. He's captured and beaten to death with a golf club, only to serve as Ellie's motivation. Joel isn't actually a real person anymore. His death is meaningless and only serves as a literary device. Which for a protagonist, is fucking terrible.
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Just to add to the subversion of expectations though.

You do still play portions of the Game as Abby as she scythes her way through Ellie's friends or other elements in her quest. If anything that would provide an interesting counterpoint and game element. Abby has to play investigator through other communities or places where Ellie's travelled through and helped, and despite her seeing that Ellie and Joel have helped and harmed in places (The creepy cult could've been whickered through by Ellie and Joel and her group stopping them doing their whatever).

Then you have her fall like a ton of fucking bricks on the farming community Ellie's been part of and kidnaps Joel, leaving, I dunno, the sperm donor and Dina all thats left alive and thats only because they were hiding in a grain silo or some shit.

You'd be able to drive home Abby's obsession and how meaningless it kind of is, even when she tortures Joel to death and leaves Ellie with nearly nothing left.
 
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Neurotic Loser said:
I think the difference is that muscles and such can be gained through intensive training whereas looks (more specifically breast sise) cannot. So the people complaining about looks probably feel like it is something they can't change and thus get angry about beauty standards. Though saying that the people who complain about fictional characters act just as pathetic as femcels getting jealous over "stacy's" looks or incels getting jealous over how "handsome" chad looks.
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I'd say that a lot of SJWs could become more attractive if they lost some weight.
 
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Hyrip123876 said:
I saw a lot of meming about Jill on /v/ but I don't see what the problem is here. She looks like a cross between OG RE3 and the actress Mila whoever from the Resident Evil movies.
In fact lately there's a lot of criticism at games for using real life models to base videogame faces off of. DMCV got flak for the mo-cap team botching their job and making for a somewhat uncanny result, and if my likeness was used for Mass Effect: Andromeda I would sue Bioware for defamation.... digressing, the Resident Evil team have been doing a good job. The main characters in RE2 & RE3 all look gorgeous imo and given its HD, creates a good subconscious contrast between beauty/life and the body horror surrounding you.

EDIT: To contrast this with TLOU, there isn't a contrast between clickers and people. The world has gone to hell, and if you wanna stay alive in hell, you've gotta inhabit some of the negatives. Nothing wrong with that, only problem is TLOU ushered in the Sony-brand games for the PS4 era. It works for some but not for others. Like look at the concept art for Horizon and contrast it with the pic above. Aloy didn't need to be homely for the narrative to work. Hell, other designs in that same game actually look really cool. If it sounds rude that I want to look at beautiful characters rather than average ones then so be it. I see normal looking people for free all the time. I'm not enthused to experience an unpleasant art-style, and when you're backed by tremendous cash there's no excuse.
I wonder what Abby's IRL model thinks of everybody thinking the character is pseudo-trans. Nobody seriously would think she's a man just by looking at her, but if ND were trying to authentically present a masculine cis-woman in this game... I think they failed, and that's on them, not the original face / body model
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Where did DMCV really mess it up? Besides the one weird frame that people memed about everything in that game looked and felt fine.
 
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jellycar said:
What is hellblade about? I remember when it was released but I never played it. Looked scary lol.

Wishful thinking but you'd expect this entire controversy to serve as a lesson on how to not draw your characters the way that ND has.
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Celtic chick with Schizophrenia or some form of Psychosis goes on a vision quest and it’s never entirely clear what is and isn’t in her head.
 
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Btw, I mentioned some of Secret Asshole's story suggestions to the person I was talking to. His response?

"Why the hell would Abby want Ellie to suffer when the latter has done absolutely nothing to her? And it’s not like Joel dying because of his past sins suddenly make all the shit he did in the first game meaningless because Ellie still lived her life for all that time. Also I'm pretty sure you’re trying to use meaningful as a substitute for dignified because Joel and his murder drives half of the story by all accounts."

Thoughts?
 
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Secret Asshole said:
Revenge stories are better when the death has a purposeful metaphor. Revenge tales need satisfying deaths, either way. Otherwise its just boring. 'Undignified' deaths are usually reserved for cocky, assholish antagonists, not former protagonists. Not to mention the death itself serves no meaning except as a motivation for another character. This is cliched and pure hackery. That death needs to mean something. Randomly getting your head bashed in is a meaningless statement. His death only serves to drive the plot. Its a very lazy device. It'd make far more sense to draw out Joel's death, with Abby taunting Ellie. Abby HAS to be a villain. Otherwise this doesn't work. For example, Ellie is chasing Abby while she's getting messages from Joel over the radio. This cat and mouse game continues until Ellie finds out Joel was dead the entire time and her pursuit was fruitless. The messages were pre-recorded. Abby's point is to rip apart Ellie. To sink her to the depths of absolute despair. This has meaning, because Joel's death reflect's Abby's own loss and agony, and she wanted Ellie to experience it. The false hope of saving someone she loves. To see that absolutely crushing moment on Ellie's face, because her father was sacrificed for her. That is a meaningful death. It reflect's Abby and Ellie's motivations and Joel's importance and the lengths Ellie will go to save him. But Abby wanted to instill a sense of hopelessness and despair in Ellie. It isn't simply about killing Joel. Its about completely breaking Ellie to the depths of Abby's own madness.

That's what revenge is all about. Revenge needs to have meaning and some satisfaction. By doing this, you draw out the emotion within the player, your desperation mimic's Ellie's. You think Joel is alive, so you go in hard. Joel's death is meaningful, because we don't expect it. We expect Abby to just kill him, but her entire point was to inflict the same emotional damage she felt on Ellie. That will then reflect on the player. The endgame is you just picking Abby apart in a fire-fight, but she just laughs and says she never expected to survive. She taunts Ellie to the last moment before Ellie puts a bullet in her head. Maybe Abby herself has a kid, and he's left all alone. Maybe Abby was a terrible parent and neglected him to the point of malnourishment because of her obsession on revenge. Ellie, angry at Abby, but realizing she'd be just like her if she harmed her child. So she takes care of him, because that will complete the circle, and make Joel's sacrifice and influence on Ellie worth something. Because Joel was a stranger, and taught her kindness. She thinks of Joel and their time together, and how he wouldn't want Ellie to leave an innocent child to the wolves, who was mistreated. This shows that their bond goes beyond his death and they're still connected. It makes Joel's death meaningful. Maybe he even recorded his last message to her and hid it from Abby before he died. Due to this, she doesn't become like Abby. She retains her sanity, and meaning in life, and vows to carry Joel's kindness and understand with her for the rest of her life. But that ending would be too 'happy'. Instead we get a sadistic, pointless death just to drive home 'lol nihilism makes me smart, am i rite?'.

Abby needs to be the antagonist here. And there are no ifs, ands or buts about it. She needs to be the main antagonist. She needs to be emotionally deranged and sadistic. She needs to be a completely broken person. Because no one who is hell bent on revenge for years and years and years would have a healthy outlook. It isn't possible. She wouldn't be well adjusted. She'd be unhinged, almost animalistic. She wouldn't be enjoying herself or making sick gains. Someone who is obsessed about revenge for that long will not be psychologically well.

In terms of story, it speaks disrespect to the original source. As a former protagonist, Joel's death should be meaningful. Instead, it negates his sacrifices, trials and tribulations in the first game. Joel dies pathetically. As a writer, you don't want your audience to be pissed at you by having a character they're attached to die in an undignified manner. Undignified deaths are rarely good for protagonists. The only way it really works is to show someone's hubris getting the better of them. A secondary protagonist getting cocky or overconfident and then dying because of his ego in a terrible fashion. This isn't that.

I don't care if its TLOU or otherwise. Respecting your protagonist and the audience's attachment to them are first and foremost. I'm sorry, your friend or whatever is an idiot. Random NPCs or people that aren't protagonists can die undignified deaths if you want to show the cruelty of the apocalypse. Protagonists are supposed to die with purpose. Its incredibly nihilistic and lazy to have a protagonist die in this fashion. And everything about revenge stories are MEANINGFUL deaths, whether it be a protagonist or antagonist. Otherwise they're just boring trash.

Joel is actually no longer a character in the way he dies. He is simply a plot point. There's little to no meaning behind his death. There's no metaphor. He's captured and beaten to death with a golf club, only to serve as Ellie's motivation. Joel isn't actually a real person anymore. His death is meaningless and only serves as a literary device. Which for a protagonist, is fucking terrible.
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Everything you talked about is exacly what happens to based caim in drakengard 2
caim-1.jpg
Japan wins again bay beh
 
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Takayuki Yagami said:
Celtic chick with Schizophrenia or some form of Psychosis goes on a vision quest and it’s never entirely clear what is and isn’t in her head.
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Game was also a bit infamous for lying to you aboit deleting your save data if you died too often. That got praised as subverting expectations and playing with themes, despite it being said in a literal pop up tutorial box and having zero relation to the other, actually fantastic displays of schizophrenia and paranoia the character suffers.

Was a great little game, but the writing did get pretty full of itself. So much of the back story was a variation of a voice yelling DO YOU KNOW X IS LIKE? SHE DOES...
 
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Catgirl IRL said:
Was a great little game, but the writing did get pretty full of itself.
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yes but keep in mind it was made by the same studio that made DmC: DMC, by their standards that's restraint
TexOffender said:
No abby anywhere in that trailer. :thinking:

Also I'll admit, without the leaks, that trailer looks pretty fucking rad.
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weird since there was footage of her during some E3 showings years back
 
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