The Tomboy Question(s)

[Fek]

In contrast, your argument is that there's no agreed upon definition of the term to the point that any conversation about tomboys is meaningless, between individual and cultural perspective differences.

Every single "deep thots" convo ever can be boiled down to this sort of crap at its terminus. Sooner or later, people wanna start splitting the already split hairs. It's why I've never been big on navel-gazing philosophical discussion. More just thinking out loud than accusing you of anything, you understand.

Is it more important to argue over the term, or gain the perspective of those who will read it and give you feedback in their own way? I'm sure you'll know when someone clearly didn't get it (as evident by the sheer number of replies to the attention whore feeding off your wasted efforts in this thread).

Spoiler: Re: A post from pages ago

Though I've never personally had the problem of her wanting to invade my time in any way, because if it starts to bother me, I just don't let her. Maybe I protect my borders early and vigilantly enough?

In my previously referenced scenario, it was definitely a boundaries issue (and it was most certainly a matter of being young and stupid). A sort of "we share <x> and <y> interests holy shit I've never had this happen before this will be gr- wait, where did all my personal time go? fffFFFF-" situation. The folly of youth.

The only issue is that it could get weirdly competitive from time to time.

I'm quite convinced that men and women are not supposed to compete directly with one another in general in any serious fashion.

What you describe sounds almost like someone who regrets turning their hobby into a job.

Regret? No..all perspective gained is good perspective. That uh..that being said - I would not do it again, lmao.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

What hypocrites, back in the day these 'women' wouldn't even consider venturing anything past MySpace or cringe Fotologs. Now they claim our stuff and take over. Many such cases!

well it's not like we haven't been fighting back if 'ya know what i'm saying

 

[Android raptor]

well it's not like we haven't been fighting back if 'ya know what i'm saying

I've been on kf like 4+ years longer than either of you have lol

 

[Solid Snek]

This is a very good thread, and I wish we had more Deep Thoughts like this.

 

[Cum Laudely]

The concept has nothing to do with achievement.

This is not an underhanded dig at you. So for the record, this is the internet I don't get mad at shit over the internet. I believe I mentioned something about nuance in one of my previous posts. My statements tend to come fully loaded with nuance. This is one of those times. I'll explain what I meant in a different manner. Think of the whole Asian stereotype of being good at math. Lets say an Asian passes a math test then I say "of course he passed it he's Asian" as a joke that's whatever but as an unironic statement that devalues the accomplishment of passing said test. How that relates to Tomboys is it leaves the door open for such comments. "Oh she did that because she's a tomboy or oh she only won because she's a tomboy." With this recent infatuation with tomboys I see these being used as excuses.

I don't think anybody so far as labeled those things as common interests of the tomboy, though-- at least, not ones to be considered. I believe that idea was even repudiated as supposing that a tomboy is just a "female soyboy consoomer", an assessment I find convincing.

There are things that are male dominated because of some fluke, and things that are male dominated because they speak to masculinity. I'd consider something like Star Wars an example of the former, and mechanics and other hard labor activities that demand masculine physical advantages to be an example of the latter. What about Star Wars is specifically geared towards men? What masculine qualities does it seize upon?

On the other end of things, there are plenty of fields once male-dominated that are now receiving more female attention and involvement, yet we know that there are fields (such as nursing) that will continue to be female-dominant principally because innate female qualities lead to a gravitation to that field in a way that innate male qualities do not.

Also operative is the reason why interest is had, which speaks to the thought process of the subject. Intuitively, if a woman were to take interest in starkly masculine interests for reasons rather similar to those that men have, I'll be inclined to find them "tomboyish".

That said, I think I made an error in not considering the question of "what constitutes a tomboy" before anything else. That, in itself, is a valuable discussion.

I don't know how familiar you are with Japanese culture but it is archaic as fuck. Activities in the west that are seen as normal for both genders to participate in. May still be male dominated in Japan and seen as (masculine) still. I literally had a friend show me a random 2D girl that had abs and had it in a "tomboy" folder. Fit women are not Tomboys. Just a general rule to follow and overall good to remember. "Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

The examples I used have all been examples I've heard previously. If we're talking anime its well understood that it will be about animation from Japan specifically. Going back to the music example if we're talking music its well understood what that entails cultural differences or not. If we're talking tomboys the conversation is up in the air. Unfortunately there is no council of internet users to come up with an agreed upon definition of "tomboys".

The one you cite still seems to assert that the concept of "tomboy" indeed has a definition, but what is presently considered "tomboy" is substantially influenced by Japanese pop culture/fetishism and accordingly deviates greatly from real life.

In contrast, your argument is that there's no agreed upon definition of the term to the point that any conversation about tomboys is meaningless, between individual and cultural perspective differences.

Since the definition of tomboys changes culturally. Yes, it needs to be established what cultural definition of tomboys we are discussing. Then once a working definition has been agreed upon from the perspective of "X" culture. Then yes a meaningful ironic discussion of "is it gay or not" can be had. Until then these discussions can reduced to a bunch of "no u" arguments. I don't call others gay lightly. Technically I do, but only in the context of shitposting. So when I say "Tomboy lovers are closeted gays." There's a fuck ton of nuance in that statement. I'm not saying to simply "bait or shitpost." It is what it is.

 

[Android raptor]

Anime, especially moe-blob shit, is also going to portray an idealized fantasy that appeals to horny nerds instead of be a realistic portrayal of even Japanese tomboys. See also yaoi characters vs. actual feminine gay men. I think a lot of the people ITT have made it clear they arent so much interested in real tomboys as they are idealized cartoon characters.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Since the definition of tomboys changes culturally. Yes, it needs to be established what cultural definition of tomboys we are discussing. Then once a working definition has been agreed upon from the perspective of "X" culture.

I don't know why people think that definition rules lawyering is going to provide clarity, especially while not even discussing how they think it is defined.

It's an odd type of conversation criticism that doesn't move anything forward.

They are a kind of cultural concept that is never going to have a 100% accurate definition anyways. It's something that everyone brings some baggage to.

Honestly the dictionary definitions are accurate enough.

Think of the whole Asian stereotype of being good at math. Lets say an Asian passes a math test then I say "of course he passed it he's Asian" as a joke that's whatever but as an unironic statement that devalues the accomplishment of passing said test.

Why is this important? Anything and everyone can be devalued with a choice comment. You don't even need stereotypes for that.

My statements tend to come fully loaded with nuance

I think what you're describing is more like personal meaning. Nuance would mean it's contextually deducable (even if very subtle) what you mean.

It's something I'm guilty of myself from time to time. But I don't think anyone could deduce that your statement of "Tomboy lovers are closeted gays" being some kind of meta criticism of not defining the terms beyond reproach.

That's not subtlety, that's headcanon.

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

Unfortunately there is no council of internet users to come up with an agreed upon definition of "tomboys".

that's gay because all of us are western so even if there isn't a solid and generally accepted definition we still all have the collective consciousness of what a tomboy is, otherwise we literally couldn't talk to each other without getting confused immediately. I don't think any Japanese are in this thread, but if they were that'd be pretty cool

 

[OrionBalls]

Long hair is hot and takes too long to maintain. Flannel is comfortable and takes to most weather. Boots are made for walking. Sports are a great social event that help keep your mond and body healthy. Why the fuck is "a woman being comfortable" a fetish?

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Long hair is hot and takes too long to maintain. Flannel is comfortable and takes to most weather. Boots are made for walking. Sports are a great social event that help keep your mond and body healthy. Why the fuck is "a woman being comfortable" a fetish?

You forgot about the implied above-average aptitude in socializing with males. Perhaps the other part of the attraction is in the lack of pretentiousness underlying the the stuff you listed.

 

[Bunny Tracks]

You forgot about the implied above-average aptitude in socializing with males. Perhaps the other part of the attraction is in the lack of pretentiousness underlying the the stuff you listed.

What's so pretentious about a woman liking girly things? You do know that not every woman who wears make-up is a stuck-up bitch, right?

 

[Zero Day Defense]

What's so pretentious about a woman liking girly things?

Neither of us mentioned "girly things" in the first place, and I was specifically addressing what was brought up. A focus on practicality, however (and I'm viewing the listed as practical choices rather than those of comfort, as related as the ideas may be), is inherently non-pretentious. Ergo, those who are more concerned with practicality (e.g. short hair because long hair is hard to maintain, sports to keep the mind and body healthy) would be likely to be non-pretentious as a whole.

You do know that not every woman who wears make-up is a stuck-up bitch, right?

Nobody brought up make-up, not even by negation.

That said, you should know that I'm using the term "pretentious" in its most literal sense, not as a euphemism for "bitchy".

 

[Bunny Tracks]

Neither of us mentioned "girly things" in the first place, and I was specifically addressing what was brought up. A focus on practicality, however, is inherently non-pretentious. Ergo, those who are more concerned with practicality (e.g. short hair because long hair is hard to maintain, sports to keep the mind and body healthy) would be likely to be non-pretentious as a whole.

Nobody brought up make-up, not even by negation.

Sorry, but the fact that you brought up pretentiousness out of nowhere in response to what the other person was saying led me to think that was what you were implying. No need to get so defensive about it.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Sorry, but the fact that you brought up pretentiousness out of nowhere in response to what the other person was saying led me to think that was what you were implying. No need to get so defensive about it.

You constructed an uncharitable argument to respond to based off of things that weren't ever said despite what was specified. Dryly pointing that out, and then elaborating on what I previously said for clarity, is in no way "defensive".

 

[Syaoran Li]

OP is a faggot

 

[OrionBalls]

You forgot about the implied above-average aptitude in socializing with males. Perhaps the other part of the attraction is in the lack of pretentiousness underlying the the stuff you listed.

Males make up about 50% of the population, give or take. Why shouldn't we learn how to socialize with each other? Besides, from what I remember of Elementary School, when these sorts of stereotypes become ingrained, playing kickball is way more fun than doing hair and talking about NKOTB on the swings. Sorry, I'm MOTI. Got called Leslie for years. So much so, that when I took the summer off (from a school year job) to get married because I wanted no burn scars on my arms, and an actual nail length to paint, I got called out for it. "Oh, I thought that was an excuse. Aren't you into chicks? You actually got married to a guy?" Fuck that shit. And fuck the fetish that goes with it.

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

women? tomboys? what?
I much prefer the company of upvotes and video essays made by unemployed people, and I recommend all men of sound mind to seek the same

 

[Cow Poly]

So I had this GF in my late 20s. Hot white mommy GF, great curves, fake boobs, tight waist. We were friends for a year before we hooked up. She wore boys clothes (Dickies Shorts/Pants, Doc Martens, wife-beaters and/or white T-shirts) and kept her hair pretty short. Common interests etc… when we finally hooked up it was super hot. We even separated on good terms. If I saw her again we’d hang out as friends and (hopefully) smash too for old times sake.
She actually dressed down “like a boy” as she used to say, to avoid unwanted attention on the street.
So yes, for me? This is a fetish now. Goood shit!

 

[Don't Tread on Me]

I am guessing this has a lot to do with anime and it's probably just because most Asian women have pretty flat chests so the tomboy "look" is probably more prevalent over there, since it's just women with short hair.

Tomboys in the US do not look like the anime depictions of them. For one thing, they are usually pretty tall, and since women in the US play basketball or soccer instead of softball like they do in Japan, tomboys in the US can get pretty muscular.

Muscular women is a whole other fetish. Like the guy on page one said, tomboys are exclusively children and the people attracted to them are exclusively pedophiles. Being a tomboy is something you are expected to grow out of.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Tomboys in the US do not look like the anime depictions of them. For one thing, they are usually pretty tall, and since women in the US play basketball or soccer instead of softball like they do in Japan, tomboys in the US can get pretty muscular.

Eh? I recall the girls who played basketball or soccer in high school, and none were particularly muscular. Definitely fit, but not "pretty muscular".

Muscular women is a whole other fetish.

I don't think so. Muscularity is a masculine feature, so I reckon those who are into that also expect at least tints of masculinity from said women-- meaning, I expect some overlap given my understanding (see below) of how said fetishists/"appreciators" define the term.

Like the guy on page one said, tomboys are exclusively children and the people attracted to them are exclusively pedophiles.

I don't think most (if any) of these fetishists/"appreciators" are pedophiles, but they have a modified understanding of what constitutes a "tomboy" that allows them to recognize sexually mature women as such, as well. You watch them, and they aren't expecting their tomboy waifu or whatever to be muscular, but rather just to be kind of androgynous, rough-spoken, into boy stuff, et cetera-- muscularity is another archetypal feature, but it isn't required.

Being a tomboy is something you are expected to grow out of.

I'm starting to get that vibe, yes. Even in fiction, it seems the archetype is often the point A of a "I'm glad I was born a woman" character arc, and is itself framed as an ignorance or explicit rejection of femininity.