The Tomboy Question(s)

[rotpocket]

• Are there any recurring psychologies within the subculture more complex than "I gravitate towards boyish things" (e.g. "I wish I was born a boy")?

Personally speaking, as something of a tomboy myself, it was never a direct decision. I grew up doing 'men's work' and wasn't much different than the boys except that I was a girl, and thus one day the boys started asking me out and it got awkward. Obviously I liked standard girly things, it was just my biggest interests didn't fit the mold.

Sticking it out and remaining true to myself and never giving up my interests even with all the bullshit social pressure and bullying in adolescence was worth it. For adolescent tomboys it might feel like your only options are either conforming to gender stereotypes and remain a girl or Troon out so you can keep being who you are (because if you aren't a girl you won't get pressured to conform to gender stereotypes associated with being a girl), but that's bullshit. A post on the other farms suggested there needs to be an "it gets better" type project for tomboys and other gender non-conforming girls and woman and I don't exactly disagree (though Lord only knows how many death and rape threats the organizers of a project like that would get from troons).

How Android's here worded it is a good summary; it's just who you ARE versus something you choose. There's a lot of pressure on young girls to like pink, princesses, unicorns, makeup, dresses, ribbons, to want to stay inside and play with dolls and do their hair versus.. anything else, really. If you had outside interests, you weren't considered 'girly' enough to fit in with other girls; stuff like enjoying video games, farm work (not gardening), dinosaurs, cars, wanting to wear just a plain cotton t-shirt with a pair of old jeans and beat up shoes, bicycles, outdoor activities, etc. the list goes on. As you get older, and you don't start becoming more feminine with long pretty hair and makeup and cute, fashionable outfits you get called a lesbian, a dyke, similar insults/teasing, you get told you're more like a dude and that's gross. It makes you stand out from other girls, and it can be alienating; I think that's why a lot of 'tomboys' grew into alt. fashion styles like goth, emo, skater (is this still a thing?), etc., joined communities where you can be yourself without being ashamed/different (LGBT for example, big emphasis on tear down gender stereotypes there), or a few became more basic, standard "girly-girls" to fit in.

I wouldn't even say tomboys/masculine girls think "I wish I was a born a boy", it's much more of a "I wish I could enjoy these things without being called a tranny dyke." I think many of the nonbinary types today are tomboys who wanted to keep their femininity, but be accepted for their more stereotypically masculine interests; that, and they're being told because they have masculine interests they MUST be trans or nonbinary.

This kind of ideology applies to men as well, effeminate men are typically called gay; it's with both sexes, the pressure to conform to a certain role. Not necessarily a bad thing, I don't think, but for those who don't easily fit in they get made fun of/set apart as different.


Now with the recent rise of tomboy fetishism? Just another meme trend of what girl's hot. A few months ago it was mommies. Just a trend, typically spread through anime and cartoon characters. Sometimes certain women just get paraded as being the best, and you'll see it come and go. I don't think there's much more to it than a brief interest in tomboys; in a few months it'll be something new.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

You do realise not all feminine women wear heavy make-up, right?

Enough do to keep the makeup industry more than afloat and normalize the concept.

 

[Android raptor]

• Are there any recurring psychologies within the subculture more complex than "I gravitate towards boyish things" (e.g. "I wish I was born a boy")?

Personally speaking, as something of a tomboy myself, it was never a direct decision. I grew up doing 'men's work' and wasn't much different than the boys except that I was a girl, and thus one day the boys started asking me out and it got awkward. Obviously I liked standard girly things, it was just my biggest interests didn't fit the mold.

How Android's here worded it is a good summary; it's just who you ARE versus something you choose. There's a lot of pressure on young girls to like pink, princesses, unicorns, makeup, dresses, ribbons, to want to stay inside and play with dolls and do their hair versus.. anything else, really. If you had outside interests, you weren't considered 'girly' enough to fit in with other girls; stuff like enjoying video games, farm work (not gardening), dinosaurs, cars, wanting to wear just a plain cotton t-shirt with a pair of old jeans and beat up shoes, bicycles, outdoor activities, etc. the list goes on. As you get older, and you don't start becoming more feminine with long pretty hair and makeup and cute, fashionable outfits you get called a lesbian, a dyke, similar insults/teasing, you get told you're more like a dude and that's gross. It makes you stand out from other girls, and it can be alienating; I think that's why a lot of 'tomboys' grew into alt. fashion styles like goth, emo, skater (is this still a thing?), etc., joined communities where you can be yourself without being ashamed/different (LGBT for example, big emphasis on tear down gender stereotypes there), or a few became more basic, standard "girly-girls" to fit in.

I wouldn't even say tomboys/masculine girls think "I wish I was a born a boy", it's much more of a "I wish I could enjoy these things without being called a tranny dyke." I think many of the nonbinary types today are tomboys who wanted to keep their femininity, but be accepted for their more stereotypically masculine interests; that, and they're being told because they have masculine interests they MUST be trans or nonbinary.

This kind of ideology applies to men as well, effeminate men are typically called gay; it's with both sexes, the pressure to conform to a certain role. Not necessarily a bad thing, I don't think, but for those who don't easily fit in they get made fun of/set apart as different.


Now with the recent rise of tomboy fetishism? Just another meme trend of what girl's hot. A few months ago it was mommies. Just a trend, typically spread through anime and cartoon characters. Sometimes certain women just get paraded as being the best, and you'll see it come and go. I don't think there's much more to it than a brief interest in tomboys; in a few months it'll be something new.

Pretty much, when I wanted to be a boy it was more about wanting to be who I am and like the shit I like with getting haggled for it (as well as not get catcalled by creepy adult men). It wasn't so much actual gender dysphoria as it was a view that if I was born with a dick maybe people would give me less shit.

Up until high school i had a pretty hard time fitting in with other girls because they weren't really interested in the shit I was. I got shoved in Girl Scouts and all it really did was show me 1. Girl Scouts is lame af 2. being around average normie girls was alienating to kid me.

At the same time in 4th grade I got put in a BD class where I was the only girl and I made friend pretty easily there and finally felt like I was with kids I got along with who liked the same shit I did. My mom and teachers acted like it was this big crisis I didnt have any friends who were girls, which I thought was retarded because I didn't give a fuck what gender my friends were as long as they liked the same shit i did.

I've mentioned before but i feel like autistic girls especially are under extreme pressure to conform to social norms (including gender stereotypes). Non-autistic "autism specialists" tend to have this mentality that autistic kids must be forced to conform to social norms as rigidly as possible, and that includes bitching out autistic girls for having interests that are "inappropriate" for their age/gender. Meanwhile non-autistic kids already know all the social rules so they can bend or break them about, but us poor subhuman autists don't understand anything at all so of course we have to be held to the most rigid standards. At least that's the impression I always got from them.

In reality it's not that autistic girls don't understand gender stereotypes, we're just more likely to see them as the dumb arbitrary bullshit they are and reject them accordingly. That combined with "autism specialists" putting them under massive pressure to conform to them is the main reason I think so many girls who troon out are autistic.

Tl;dr, being able to continue being a tomboy into adolescence is an uphill battle especially for autistic girls, and I think so many are saying "fuck it, then I'm a boy/nonbinary whatever" as a way to continue being who they are and get people off their back.

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Pretty much, when I wanted to be a boy it was more about wanting to be who I am and like the shit I like with getting haggled for it (as well as not get catcalled by creepy adult men). It wasn't so much actual gender dysphoria as it was a view that if I was born with a dick maybe people would give me less shit.

Up until high school i had a pretty hard time fitting in with other girls because they weren't really interested in the shit I was. I got shoved in Girl Scouts and all it really did was show me 1. Girl Scouts is lame af 2. being around average normie girls was alienating to kid me.

At the same time in 4th grade I got put in a BD class where I was the only girl and I made friend pretty easily there and finally felt like I was with kids I got along with who liked the same shit I did. My mom and teachers acted like it was this big crisis I didnt have any friends who were girls, which I thought was retarded because I didn't give a fuck what gender my friends were as long as they liked the same shit i did.

I've mentioned before but i feel like autistic girls especially are under extreme pressure to conform to social norms (including gender stereotypes). Non-autistic "autism specialists" tend to have this mentality that autistic kids must be forced to conform to social norms as rigidly as possible, and that includes bitching out autistic girls for having interests that are "inappropriate" for their age/gender. Meanwhile non-autistic kids already know all the social rules so they can bend or break them about, but us poor subhuman autists don't understand anything at all so of course we have to be held to the most rigid standards. At least that's the impression I always got from them.

In reality it's not that autistic girls don't understand gender stereotypes, we're just more likely to see them as the dumb arbitrary bullshit they are and reject them accordingly. That combined with "autism specialists" putting them under massive pressure to conform to them is the main reason I think so many girls who troon out are autistic.

Tl;dr, being able to continue being a tomboy into adolescence is an uphill battle especially for autistic girls, and I think so many are saying "fuck it, then I'm a boy/nonbinary whatever" as a way to continue being who they are and get people off their back.

Bitch, we're talking about a trend of the week for beauty standards with straight dudes. Why did you make it into a blogpost about Autism and Troons?

 

[Android raptor]

Bitch, we're talking about a trend of the week for beauty standards with straight dudes. Why did you make it into a blogpost about Autism and Troons?

I thought this thread was just about tomboys in general, and iirc even the OP mentioned the phenomenon of them trooning out.

If you wanna talk about tomboys don't be surprised when a few tomboys pop into the convo

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

I thought this thread was just about tomboys in general, and iirc even the OP mentioned the phenomenon of them trooning out.

If you wanna talk about tomboys don't be surprised when a few tomboys pop into the convo

And up to a point it was helpful. One of the big issues was surrounding the question is the prevalence of gender stereotypes. But it falls apart on two principles
1. You started your involvement in the thread by trying to define Tomboy exclusively along your own terms which just so happens encapsulate yourself when nobody really entirely agreed on it
2. The other large driving premise is why young men are holding up the ideal for straight or bi women. Your perspective on the issue was helpful from the point of view of femininity and the way its processed to an extent but being a lesbian does limit you in regards to the gender relations aspect by how it changes the sexual and romantic dynamics we can draw from. No man would go for an explicit butch lesbian except out of delusion.

 

[Android raptor]

And up to a point it was helpful. One of the big issues was surrounding the question is the prevalence of gender stereotypes. But it falls apart on two principles
1. You started your involvement in the thread by trying to define Tomboy exclusively along your own terms which just so happens encapsulate yourself when nobody really entirely agreed on it
2. The other large driving premise is why young men are holding up the ideal for straight or bi women. Your perspective on the issue was helpful from the point of view of femininity and the way its processed to an extent but being a lesbian does limit you in regards to the gender relations aspect by how it changes the sexual and romantic dynamics we can draw from. No man would go for an explicit butch lesbian except out of delusion.

Lotta delusional dudes honking at me then and shit, it's fukkin annoying

Seriously why do guys catcall, it's annoying AF and I've never heard of any woman liking it.

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Lotta delusional dudes honking at me then and shit, it's fukkin annoying

Seriously why do guys catcall, it's annoying AF and I've never heard of any woman liking it.

Bored

 

[Android raptor]

Bored

If your bored go poke around nearby woods or look under logs and rocks to see if theres anything neat, no excuse to harass random women just minding their business walking around outside

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

If your bored go poke around nearby woods or look under logs and rocks to see if theres anything neat, no excuse to harass random women just minding their business walking around outside

Thanks for the PSA and assuming I randomly catcall butch lesbians.

 

[Android raptor]

Thanks for the PSA and assuming I randomly catcall butch lesbians.

Not you, I meant like in general, like why don't dudes who catcall just look for cool stuff under rocks if they're bored

Theres cool stuff under rocks like millipedes, centipedes, and if you're really lucky you might find a salamander

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Not you, I meant like in general, like why don't dudes who catcall just look for cool stuff under rocks if they're bored

Theres cool stuff under rocks like millipedes, centipedes, and if you're really lucky you might find a salamander

Because most men don't think of bugs as anything but stuff that should stay off your skin and house. Plus, a woman who is obviously trying to be well dressed for an occasion might like a good compliment. Keyword being good.

 

[Android raptor]

Because most men don't think of bugs as anything but stuff that should stay off your skin and house. Plus, a woman who is obviously trying to be well dressed for an occasion might like a good compliment. Keyword being good.

Theres a difference between a good complement and catcalling tho. And I'm pretty much never well dressed

Most people in general think that way about bugs. It seems to be mostly kids that think otherwise, stereotypically boys.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

I'm Not Like Other Girls™

 

[Cum Laudely]

This arguement literally applies to every single topic ever discussed by two or more people. I have some really bad news for you if this causes you discomfort.

I'm late, but this is shit bait and not even worth calling you an autist over it. You literally omitted the first sentence of my quote and yes it is highly applicable to the rest of the quote. Why? The shit show that has become this thread is exactly what I was warning about in my quote. I say "hey let's have music discussion" people know what to discuss because it has been defined properly. But I say "hey let's have a tomboy discussion" its going to be a shit show. This thread is a shining example of that. No one has the same definition as to what makes a tomboy.

Got to ask but are tomboys actually a thing?

Because I've seen a lot of girls who are into shit like Star Wars,sports,video games,anime and bugs while also being interested in typical girl shit like jewelry and makeup.

Might just be a personal thing but from what I've observed simply liking guy things doesn't make one a tomboy

This is one of the points I was making. Not to sound like a male feminist or anything but I feel labeling women as a tomboy so quickly takes away from their achievements in that particular field. As society progresses women are being included in more & more activities so much so very little is a "guy exclusive thing" these days. All those things you listed are no longer guy exclusive and labeling them a tomboy thing is narrow minded because the real question should be "what else are they into?" Just because a woman does something that is male dominated she's now a tomboy? People in general would be hard pressed to find a common activity that isn't already male dominated. But just because it is doesn't mean a woman participating is a "tomboy".

The recent spike in interest is definitely fetish-driven, but it's over a specific variety of fetish. The manga/anime world these days for example classifies a tomboy as any sort of athletic girl with short hair and a love a sports. They are toned, often muscular, and almost always shy and inexperienced with love, which adds a sort of authenticity a lot of guys crave with a passion. It's pretty much become a sort fusion category that crosses over into a lot of different fetish territory so no surprise it's increased in popularity (and given a lot the wrong idea about what constitutes a tomboy).

This is a super important point waaaaay more important than anything else in this thread. People throwing in cultural differences into this discussion and no one knows what the fuck they are talking about anymore. "Culturally Japan sees women this way, therefore I love tomboys." Meanwhile compare that to a more progressive society the idea of a tomboy has mostly fallen out of relevancy and one has to really reach just to find a tomboy these days. There was a guy in this thread talking about his tomboy experience in the 80s and all I could think about is 40 years has passed since then. Things are (vastly) different now.

To be fair I'm probably one of the more active tomboys on this humble fruit forum so me sperging in a thread about tomboys is on-topic.

Hell I'm pretty sure I'm the only tomboy that's been posting throughout most of the thread, thread seems to be quite the sausage fest otherwise.

Ngl it's pretty gay yall turned a thread about tomboys into a sausagefest

As a guy I agree with a lot of the things you are saying. Nuance gets thrown out over time and things are getting oversimplified to such a degree that people are now conflating the lesbian look with heterosexuality. I as a straight guy am not attracted to the lesbian look because that's not for me, thats for lesbians. Even with someone that looks like Strange Æons with the short hair also not for me. Why? Because its not meant for me as a straight guy. Typically though "her look" is the kinda look I like in women. Short hair to that degree is where it becomes unappealing to me.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Not to sound like a male feminist or anything but I feel labeling women as a tomboy so quickly takes away from their achievements in that particular field.

The concept has nothing to do with achievement.

All those things you listed are no longer guy exclusive and labeling them a tomboy thing is narrow minded because the real question should be "what else are they into?"

I don't think anybody so far as labeled those things as common interests of the tomboy, though-- at least, not ones to be considered. I believe that idea was even repudiated as supposing that a tomboy is just a "female soyboy consoomer", an assessment I find convincing.

There are things that are male dominated because of some fluke, and things that are male dominated because they speak to masculinity. I'd consider something like Star Wars an example of the former, and mechanics and other hard labor activities that demand masculine physical advantages to be an example of the latter. What about Star Wars is specifically geared towards men? What masculine qualities does it seize upon?

On the other end of things, there are plenty of fields once male-dominated that are now receiving more female attention and involvement, yet we know that there are fields (such as nursing) that will continue to be female-dominant principally because innate female qualities lead to a gravitation to that field in a way that innate male qualities do not.

Also operative is the reason why interest is had, which speaks to the thought process of the subject. Intuitively, if a woman were to take interest in starkly masculine interests for reasons rather similar to those that men have, I'll be inclined to find them "tomboyish".

That said, I think I made an error in not considering the question of "what constitutes a tomboy" before anything else. That, in itself, is a valuable discussion.

People throwing in cultural differences into this discussion and no one knows what the fuck they are talking about anymore. "Culturally Japan sees women this way, therefore I love tomboys." Meanwhile compare that to a more progressive society the idea of a tomboy has mostly fallen out of relevancy and one has to really reach just to find a tomboy these days. There was a guy in this thread talking about his tomboy experience in the 80s and all I could think about is 40 years has passed since then. Things are (vastly) different now.

The one you cite still seems to assert that the concept of "tomboy" indeed has a definition, but what is presently considered "tomboy" is substantially influenced by Japanese pop culture/fetishism and accordingly deviates greatly from real life.

In contrast, your argument is that there's no agreed upon definition of the term to the point that any conversation about tomboys is meaningless, between individual and cultural perspective differences.

 

[CheezzyMach]

another thread ruined because this r/femaledatingstrategy reject had to turn it into her cringey blog

Lol this entire subforum is just the backed up outhouse toilet of KF.

Or as I like to call it Rightwing Tumbler.

 

[Android raptor]

Lol this entire subforum is just the backed up outhouse toilet of KF.

Or as I like to call it Rightwing Tumbler.

Conservative men posting their Ls is a good description too

 

[Maurice Caine]

another thread ruined because this r/femaledatingstrategy reject had to turn it into her cringey blog

What hypocrites, back in the day these 'women' wouldn't even consider venturing anything past MySpace or cringe Fotologs. Now they claim our stuff and take over. Many such cases!

 

[Android raptor]

What hypocrites, back in the day these 'women' wouldn't even consider venturing anything past MySpace or cringe Fotologs. Now they claim our stuff and take over. Many such cases!

Back in the day I thought I was cool and Not Like Other Girls because I was on the chans unlike those yucky sluts that used MySpace.

The awkward nerdy tomboy--->self loathing NLOG--->ftm/genderspecial pipeline girls get sucked into in Current Year is sad and horrifying