Trolling Ethics Debate Thread

[Le Bateleur]

I do tend to speak with a voice of authority, but I think that's somewhat fair because I know more about Chris than most people do, and have access to exclusive information sources.
That does not mean that I'm infallible or better than anyone else. Also, I don't try to be condescending or rude to anyone.
I'm not above reproach. If I'm wrong, call me out and correct me. I am not god.

Hell, I'm not even Null.

There's a difference between speaking from authority and paternalism, or moralising.

You clearly have knowledge of Chris and Barb that extends far beyond almost every other user here, so speaking authoritatively naturally follows. What I was referring to is the tendency I've observed for you to speak in a way that assumes you know what is best for Chris and Barb, and also for you to make moral judgements on them and on the users here.

Paternalism is one of the classic medical ethics issues - to what extent should clinicians intervene in the choices made by their patients. Obviously you aren't a doctor, and Chris is not your patient, but the general principles of the argument apply to this situation. Personally I come down on the side of the argument that feels a person's autonomy should be respected in almost every case. It'd likely be boring for almost everyone if I elaborated too much here; suffice it to say that, to me, thinking one knows what's best for another leads more often to harm than to good.

I sympathise with you feeling frustrated at Chris and Barb, especially if you have to deal with them regularly - professionally or personally. However, I think this only serves to underline why I believe that trolling shouldn't come from a place of anger, frustration or indignation. Starting from these points, it's too easy for it to turn into something serious, and for the person involved to cross lines they normally wouldn't because they feel the end justifies the means.

Even if this doesn't happen, there's a risk to come across as preachy, didactic or self-righteous. To that end, I offer this quote of yours from last week:

In conclusion, here's something to think about. At the beginning of this month, Chris took several hundred dollars out of his paypal as cash and put it in his wallet. That is the same money that he is now using to have his taint re-piercied. To the people who have been his ebay customers, whatever your intention was, you ended up, in part, financing a mentally deficient person's self-destructive compulsion, and enabling him. You're enabling him to do something stupid that may ultimately result in serious harm.

I take issue with you hectoring Chris's eBay buyers. It's a leap to go from someone buying something they want to them enabling Chris to do something which they likely had no idea he even wanted to.

I guess in summary I empathise with your position, but I'd reiterate that trolling/interacting with lolcows is best avoided if they frustrate/annoy/irritate you.

 

[Tragi-Chan]

Oh, the cwcki and celebrity taboid analogy is my favorite.

@timtommy The "non-exceptional individual celebrities make their bed and that's different" argument is a popular one and I understand what they're trying to say. But what about child stars? The parents of a child star decide everything and it has serious impacts on the child's life long after the parent is directly involved.

Personally, I consider Chris to be very similar to a celebrity. Or rather, he definitely is a celebrity. He's famous with a lot of people who don't know him personally. If someone thinks that Chris isn't a celebrity because he didn't make a fully informed decision to become a celebrity, then... well, then responsibility-wise he's on par with a child star.

To me, the big question is, are the observers/trolls being dicks?

I think if Chris is making a solid effort to hide from his notoriety, then it's kind of dickish to exploit his subpar intelligence to push him into the trolling situations he's unhappy with. That's how it was in 2013. (And in practice, few people were successful in trolling Chris in 2013. That year he did a good job shutting out the trolls.)

However, in 2014, Chris has been very public. He's also been very successful at exploiting his troll attention for personal profit. It's a blurrier situation in 2014 because he's profiting off of his notoriety.

I agree with the Chris-as-celebrity concept. What I would add is that Chris is probably closest to a reality TV star. Reality TV allows people to become famous by virtue of who they are rather than any talent they have. This often involves exploiting their stupidity, ineptitude and emotional problems. The result is often that the person in question becomes a figure of hatred, contempt or unwanted amusement to the general public. This is basically what has happened with Chris and, indeed, other lolcows. The difference is that rather than a team of producers looking at them and thinking, "Yes, this is our bad guy" or whatever, they achieved notoriety all on their own, raw and unedited. It's the dark side of the democracy that the Internet allows - you can publish your stories or release your films without worrying about meddling from above, but every mistake you make is equally visible.

 

[Flowerwall]

I haven't gotten all the way through this thread yet, but I've read the debates in the other threads, and there's something that keeps coming to mind when I read these things.

With regard to whether or not to tell Chris: In short, I think it's better that he doesn't know. The truth isn't always as holy and pure as rhetoric would have you believe; sometimes it just simply bursts a bubble for the sake of bursting it. We're all aware that Chris has a very limited social life, and a non-existent romantic one. Even if his 'relationships' were fake, to him they were real people that he got to know for a while, and to tell him that it was all trolling would do far, far more damage than letting him think he'd had some friends/heartsweets/whatever.

I'm speaking on a personal level on this one. I once found out that a guy that I'd gone out with briefly had only done so on a bet from his friends, and he'd been paid for every day he kept up the relationship. You know what it feels like to find out that a relationship was a complete sham and was only done for entertainment? Fucking horrible. It not only makes you question the people involved, but it makes you question people that aren't involved. It makes you feel worthless and helpless and that people are only going to laugh at you if you ever try again with anyone else. Would I have been happier if I'd not found that out? Abso-fucking-lutely. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone, let alone someone with as minimal of a social circle as Chris.

 

[timtommy]

Oh, the cwcki and celebrity taboid analogy is my favorite.

@timtommy The "non-exceptional individual celebrities make their bed and that's different" argument is a popular one and I understand what they're trying to say. But what about child stars? The parents of a child star decide everything and it has serious impacts on the child's life long after the parent is directly involved.

Personally, I consider Chris to be very similar to a celebrity. Or rather, he definitely is a celebrity. He's famous with a lot of people who don't know him personally. If someone thinks that Chris isn't a celebrity because he didn't make a fully informed decision to become a celebrity, then... well, then responsibility-wise he's on par with a child star.

To me, the big question is, are the observers/trolls being dicks?

I think if Chris is making a solid effort to hide from his notoriety, then it's kind of dickish to exploit his subpar intelligence to push him into the trolling situations he's unhappy with. That's how it was in 2013. (And in practice, few people were successful in trolling Chris in 2013. That year he did a good job shutting out the trolls.)

However, in 2014, Chris has been very public. He's also been very successful at exploiting his troll attention for personal profit. It's a blurrier situation in 2014 because he's profiting off of his notoriety.

I guess there are two aspects of it. One is whether the person gets something (especially money) as a result of their celebrity lack-of-privacy. Recently Chris has begun to, and that makes me feel better about things. Maybe that is completely naive, but it is just my gut reaction.

The other is does the person wants it. Most "celebrities" want the good parts of fame without the negative parts, but that is not part of the deal. So instead they choose to have the good and the bad as opposed to neither. As you pointed out, Chris wavers between wanting it and not. Generally, when he really wants to be left alone by the world, he has been fairly capable of doing this. So that also makes me feel better.

The problem I have with your child-star example is this. A lot of children a subject to the whim of their parents. The proportion of children, particularly very young ones, whose parents choose their religion, their schooling, even their interests, hobbies and friends, is huge. So when you say child-stars don't make the choice and it has impacts on their life it is true. But that is the case for a lot of aspects of childhood. It's one of the paradoxes of modern society. Society highly values the idea that every child be given an equal shot to succeed. Yet we also highly value the idea that parents should make the parenting decisions. a lot of which signicantly impact the chances of success. I think there is a serious contradiction there which most people ignore.

 

[Lurker]

(I started typing this yesterday, so if someone said something similar, whoops.)

Here's my two-cents:

Trolling people is a shitty thing to do. However, many of us are shitty people. And, generally speaking, most of the "trolling" that was done to Chris has been with the best intentions, like trying to get Chris to go outside, meet new people, etc etc etc. I dunno, but if I were in Thetan's shoes, I don't know if I would have done anything different. Yeah, I suppose it's a bit fucked up to impersonate people that Chris knew in reality, but if some of us had that opportunity, would we have taken it? Some of us might have. I think Thetan just took the first opportunity and went with it, you know what I mean? Should she tell Chris? Her call. I have a feeling she's damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't. Not telling Chris that Renee is a troll might be okay, for a while, but Chris might (I'm not confident about this) figure it out on his own. Telling Chris that Renee is a troll will just shatter him... or it won't. Chris has bounced back from these things plenty of times. Of course, his situation has never been as dire as it is now. I dunno. I'm not in Thetan's position. I'm not going to tell her where she gets off.

As for what Skyraider did? It's funny, because I never really thought ill of what Skyraider did. In my mind, it's sort of the same thing that I said about Thetan above. There are opportunists everywhere. Some of you guys might be opportunists, too. Skyraider, somehow, managed to get Chris's old homework. I do not question how he got it. I just know he did. Some people find that "icky", and that's fine. But do realize that many of us are here because we're observing a 30-something year old autistic manchild who claims that he is now a woman in a man's body, more or less. Many of us may be casual observers, but are we really any better when we consume this content? Besides, as a few others have stated, all of the shit Skyraider found would end up in a public landfill anyway, so it's not illegal what he's doing, per se. Just, uh... Questionable. But I don't judge.

Ultimately, Chris will probably get hurt if people continue to "troll" him, regardless of their intentions. But then, Chris has done a lot of dumb shit without the prompting of "trolls", so I honestly wonder if the trolls didn't do anything, would Chris still continue to do things that hurt him physically and mentally? Probably.

 

[WilhelmIIofPrussia]

Not sure why you included my post, as that obviously wasn't my point.

It might not have been your foremost point, but that statement of yours says that all people here - forum users and trolls, are participating in something equally morally wrong.

 

[warongiygas]

It's sorta gotten into the "we can't back out now" stage, considering how deep our fingers are in the Chandlers' lives. All the better to protect them from people who would genuinely like to fuck them over.

We're not protecting the Chandlers from anyone though. The only people they need protection from are themselves, and there's not a damn thing we can do about that.

I agree with the Chris-as-celebrity concept. What I would add is that Chris is probably closest to a reality TV star. Reality TV allows people to become famous by virtue of who they are rather than any talent they have. This often involves exploiting their stupidity, ineptitude and emotional problems. The result is often that the person in question becomes a figure of hatred, contempt or unwanted amusement to the general public. This is basically what has happened with Chris and, indeed, other lolcows. The difference is that rather than a team of producers looking at them and thinking, "Yes, this is our bad guy" or whatever, they achieved notoriety all on their own, raw and unedited. It's the dark side of the democracy that the Internet allows - you can publish your stories or release your films without worrying about meddling from above, but every mistake you make is equally visible.

I see Chris like a reality TV celebrity mixed with a cartoon villain.

I'm speaking on a personal level on this one. I once found out that a guy that I'd gone out with briefly had only done so on a bet from his friends, and he'd been paid for every day he kept up the relationship. You know what it feels like to find out that a relationship was a complete sham and was only done for entertainment? Fucking horrible. It not only makes you question the people involved, but it makes you question people that aren't involved. It makes you feel worthless and helpless and that people are only going to laugh at you if you ever try again with anyone else. Would I have been happier if I'd not found that out? Abso-fucking-lutely. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone, let alone someone with as minimal of a social circle as Chris.

First off, I respect that you shared that story with us and I'm sorry you went through that. That said, I completely disagree with you. I would much prefer to know the truth, even when it's horrible. I know it's easy for me to say, but that's how I feel. Where I'm going with this is, I don't think it should be up to any of us to dictate how Chris would react to the truth. In the end, whether or not someone wants to hear a potentially devastating truth is a personal choice. In Chris's case though, we have a large body of evidence that suggests he prefers fantasy over reality, so I see how your point is valid.

As I mentioned before, If I had lied to Chris to get content, I would feel it's my responsibility to tell Chris the truth afterwards. At least, that's how I like to think I would act. In the end though, it's Catherine's decision because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences.

 

[Holdek]

It might not have been your foremost point, but that statement of yours says that all people here - forum users and trolls, are participating in something equally morally wrong.

No it doesn't. Re-read it, bro.

 

[champthom]

I sympathise with you feeling frustrated at Chris and Barb, especially if you have to deal with them regularly - professionally or personally. However, I think this only serves to underline why I believe that trolling shouldn't come from a place of anger, frustration or indignation. Starting from these points, it's too easy for it to turn into something serious, and for the person involved to cross lines they normally wouldn't because they feel the end justifies the means.

When I first saw this post, I thought maybe you were referring to Marvin, but then I saw you were addressing Skyraider.

That sorta segues into a point I wanted to make. Certain things trolls have done kinda have been done in frustration. Here's what I mean:

BlueSpike: I've made this point before, but I'll reiterate it. The general feeling is "BlueSpike is/was a little sociopath" and that he's pure evil for the stuff he wanted Chris to do. I knew BlueSpike well - I haven't heard from him in a while, he's mostly focused on his studies as he should (remember - it's not like he's going to eternally be 13 years old). I've played games with him, I've been berated by him, I've been insulted by him, he is a little brat at times. However, you have to kinda consider the circumstances.

BlueSpike was a 13 year old with maybe a dozen other people, who were significantly older than him. He was 13, everyone else was about 19 or 20, some people a bit older, some people a bit younger but he was still the youngest. He was the first sweetheart who could be "controlled" - he was willing to listen to what we had to say, Panda sorta worked but she's still sitting on a pile of content we'll never see if it actually exists as she pretty much took her toys and went home. There was significant pressure on him to talk to Chris like, every day. Imagine having to talk to Chris, every day. You might think it's an awesome opportunity but remember, you don't get to have an actual conversation with him, you get to hear him talk about how he wants you to visit him and have sex with him so he can stop being a virgin with rage and how you have to bear his children and you have to eat at a shitty buffet place as a fancy date. Plus BlueSpike had to endure several of those cyber sex sessions where he more or less had to deal with Chris masturbating to his voice. It would take a toll on anyone.

So when that final audio came along, it's so long I forget the exact circumstances, I sincerely believed he kinda snapped. He was just so pissed off at Chris, he just demanded that Chris burn his house down or shove a medallion up his ass. Here's the thing though - there was no way to capture any video footage BlueSpike saw. Afterwards, some of us asked him "Why the hell did you ask him to do it if you couldn't record it?" and he's like "I dunno." I believe in the released audio you can hear at least two people say "BLUESPIKE, STOP" during the audio when he tells Chris to shove the medallion up his ass. If it's any consolation though, the likely opinion is Chris just shoved it between his buttcheeks as he really didn't understand the difference between like, your buttocks and your actual anus. Again, none of this really justifies what BlueSpike did, but when you deal with Chris for so long, you might have a tendency to snap.

I think Kacey is a similar case as well. I don't recall her being a pleasant person to begin with, but I try not to bad mouth other people personally just because of some of the things they've done in the past. Anyways, while I think that part of the motivation of the berating of Chris was that that would be the only way he would listen, but I think part of it might have been she took it personally when Chris would say something to her and not do it. She took it as a personal offense and I think that's part of the reason why she was so harsh on Chris. Also again, the nature of having a conversation with Chris - you're not an equal partner in a conversation, you're expected to listen to Chris ramble about some stupid shit he thinks should be included in LittleBigPlanet or how it's crucial he gets laid soon so all of his problems can be solved. I don't think I've ever heard a conversation with Chris where he asks something like "So how was your day?" or "How are you doing today?" (please prove me wrong if there was).

Personally, I set extremely low standards for Chris. Maybe it's wrong but at least I don't get upset over something Chris does. I used to, but then I started doing that so when Chris says something outlandish or does something stupid, I'll be like "That's our Chris!". Chris doing something stupid is like a 5 year old doing something stupid - you don't get genuinely angry over something a 5 year old does, you might scold them but you realize they're a 5 year old and the bar shouldn't be set so high.

EDIT:
One aspect of BlueSpike I forgot to mention, mostly why I brought up the fact he was the youngest. I think part of it too was he wanted to impress the rest of us who were older, to be one of the "cool kids." Not too many 13 year olds get to be treated (almost) as equals by people older than themselves. I think part of the medallion thing was an attempt to impress us, though I think that just stress from having to deal with Chris played in as well. Someone in chat was skeptical that it was the only factor, which I can agree, but I'd say it's probably a contributing factor. I am however bringing up this point as I think that also played into effect why BlueSpike decided to ask to shove a medallion up his ass. I don't think BlueSpike is suffering PTSD from hearing Chris jerk off but I think having to constantly interact with him and having to get stuff that was amusing from him wore down his patience and that kinda made him snap.

 

[Male Idiot]

I haven't gotten all the way through this thread yet, but I've read the debates in the other threads, and there's something that keeps coming to mind when I read these things.

With regard to whether or not to tell Chris: In short, I think it's better that he doesn't know. The truth isn't always as holy and pure as rhetoric would have you believe; sometimes it just simply bursts a bubble for the sake of bursting it. We're all aware that Chris has a very limited social life, and a non-existent romantic one. Even if his 'relationships' were fake, to him they were real people that he got to know for a while, and to tell him that it was all trolling would do far, far more damage than letting him think he'd had some friends/heartsweets/whatever.

I'm speaking on a personal level on this one. I once found out that a guy that I'd gone out with briefly had only done so on a bet from his friends, and he'd been paid for every day he kept up the relationship. You know what it feels like to find out that a relationship was a complete sham and was only done for entertainment? Fucking horrible. It not only makes you question the people involved, but it makes you question people that aren't involved. It makes you feel worthless and helpless and that people are only going to laugh at you if you ever try again with anyone else. Would I have been happier if I'd not found that out? Abso-fucking-lutely. I wouldn't wish that experience on anyone, let alone someone with as minimal of a social circle as Chris.

We're not protecting the Chandlers from anyone though. The only people they need protection from are themselves, and there's not a damn thing we can do about that.

I see Chris like a reality TV celebrity mixed with a cartoon villain.

First off, I respect that you shared that story with us and I'm sorry you went through that. That said, I completely disagree with you. I would much prefer to know the truth, even when it's horrible. I know it's easy for me to say, but that's how I feel. Where I'm going with this is, I don't think it should be up to any of us to dictate how Chris would react to the truth. In the end, whether or not someone wants to hear a potentially devastating truth is a personal choice. In Chris's case though, we have a large body of evidence that suggests he prefers fantasy over reality, so I see how your point is valid.

As I mentioned before, If I had lied to Chris to get content, I would feel it's my responsibility to tell Chris the truth afterwards. At least, that's how I like to think I would act. In the end though, it's Catherine's decision because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences.

A friend of mine went through with that for at least two years when someone was using him for monetary gain and emotionally abusing him for giggles by making fake drama and blaming it on him. He got dumped hard two months ago when the abuser got bored of him and had no more use of him.

To a casual observer like me it first looked like a big misunderstanding. Eager to help, I tried to talk to this person and that's when the truth was revealed. I told him the truth about this person, he deserved to know it.

He was feeling suicidal after the loss of the relationship, but he became slowly better when I told him it was all a lie to begin with. He no longer felt like he lost his true soulmate. He got rid of a parasite who was lying to him for years.

He cut communications with 80% of his friends who he suspected were in on this or took the other person's side, but he no longer has a drinking problem brought on by the abuse and he is noticable more cheerful when I talk to him.

Now this friend of mine is much better off than Chris. He does have Aspergers, but he is a well adjust person who is completely harmless and thoughtful if a little slow.

I really feel for your pain, Flowerwall and it was a horrible thing they did to you , but Chris is a different person. I think if he finds out the truth, he will be better off because he'll know that he was wronged by a troll and none of it was his fault this time. I base this on the behaviour Chris showed after the previous sweethearts turned out to be trolls.

 

[Cheeseburger Picnic]

When I first saw this post, I thought maybe you were referring to Marvin, but then I saw you were addressing Skyraider.

That sorta segues into a point I wanted to make. Certain things trolls have done kinda have been done in frustration. Here's what I mean:

BlueSpike: I've made this point before, but I'll reiterate it. The general feeling is "BlueSpike is/was a little sociopath" and that he's pure evil for the stuff he wanted Chris to do. I knew BlueSpike well - I haven't heard from him in a while, he's mostly focused on his studies as he should (remember - it's not like he's going to eternally be 13 years old). I've played games with him, I've been berated by him, I've been insulted by him, he is a little brat at times. However, you have to kinda consider the circumstances.

BlueSpike was a 13 year old with maybe a dozen other people, who were significantly older than him. He was 13, everyone else was about 19 or 20, some people a bit older, some people a bit younger but he was still the youngest. He was the first sweetheart who could be "controlled" - he was willing to listen to what we had to say, Panda sorta worked but she's still sitting on a pile of content we'll never see if it actually exists as she pretty much took her toys and went home. There was significant pressure on him to talk to Chris like, every day. Imagine having to talk to Chris, every day. You might think it's an awesome opportunity but remember, you don't get to have an actual conversation with him, you get to hear him talk about how he wants you to visit him and have sex with him so he can stop being a virgin with rage and how you have to bear his children and you have to eat at a shitty buffet place as a fancy date. Plus BlueSpike had to endure several of those cyber sex sessions where he more or less had to deal with Chris masturbating to his voice. It would take a toll on anyone.

So when that final audio came along, it's so long I forget the exact circumstances, I sincerely believed he kinda snapped. He was just so pissed off at Chris, he just demanded that Chris burn his house down or shove a medallion up his ass. Here's the thing though - there was no way to capture any video footage BlueSpike saw. Afterwards, some of us asked him "Why the hell did you ask him to do it if you couldn't record it?" and he's like "I dunno." I believe in the released audio you can hear at least two people say "BLUESPIKE, STOP" during the audio when he tells Chris to shove the medallion up his ass. If it's any consolation though, the likely opinion is Chris just shoved it between his buttcheeks as he really didn't understand the difference between like, your buttocks and your actual anus. Again, none of this really justifies what BlueSpike did, but when you deal with Chris for so long, you might have a tendency to snap.

I think Kacey is a similar case as well. I don't recall her being a pleasant person to begin with, but I try not to bad mouth other people personally just because of some of the things they've done in the past. Anyways, while I think that part of the motivation of the berating of Chris was that that would be the only way he would listen, but I think part of it might have been she took it personally when Chris would say something to her and not do it. She took it as a personal offense and I think that's part of the reason why she was so harsh on Chris. Also again, the nature of having a conversation with Chris - you're not an equal partner in a conversation, you're expected to listen to Chris ramble about some stupid shit he thinks should be included in LittleBigPlanet or how it's crucial he gets laid soon so all of his problems can be solved. I don't think I've ever heard a conversation with Chris where he asks something like "So how was your day?" or "How are you doing today?" (please prove me wrong if there was).

Personally, I set extremely low standards for Chris. Maybe it's wrong but at least I don't get upset over something Chris does. I used to, but then I started doing that so when Chris says something outlandish or does something stupid, I'll be like "That's our Chris!". Chris doing something stupid is like a 5 year old doing something stupid - you don't get genuinely angry over something a 5 year old does, you might scold them but you realize they're a 5 year old and the bar shouldn't be set so high.

EDIT:
One aspect of BlueSpike I forgot to mention, mostly why I brought up the fact he was the youngest. I think part of it too was he wanted to impress the rest of us who were older, to be one of the "cool kids." Not too many 13 year olds get to be treated (almost) as equals by people older than themselves. I think part of the medallion thing was an attempt to impress us, though I think that just stress from having to deal with Chris played in as well. Someone in chat was skeptical that it was the only factor, which I can agree, but I'd say it's probably a contributing factor. I am however bringing up this point as I think that also played into effect why BlueSpike decided to ask to shove a medallion up his ass. I don't think BlueSpike is suffering PTSD from hearing Chris jerk off but I think having to constantly interact with him and having to get stuff that was amusing from him wore down his patience and that kinda made him snap.

I mean. No matter how you paint it Bluespike in the most literal sense was a child being groomed to sexually please a 30 year old man over the internet. The intentions behind it were certainly not typical but everybody seems to always gloss over that fact.

 

[Marvin]

First off, I respect that you shared that story with us and I'm sorry you went through that. That said, I completely disagree with you. I would much prefer to know the truth, even when it's horrible. I know it's easy for me to say, but that's how I feel. Where I'm going with this is, I don't think it should be up to any of us to dictate how Chris would react to the truth. In the end, whether or not someone wants to hear a potentially devastating truth is a personal choice. In Chris's case though, we have a large body of evidence that suggests he prefers fantasy over reality, so I see how your point is valid.

As I mentioned before, If I had lied to Chris to get content, I would feel it's my responsibility to tell Chris the truth afterwards. At least, that's how I like to think I would act. In the end though, it's Catherine's decision because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences.

I don't think it's your responsibility to volunteer the truth, but merely to present the offer of the truth to Chris. Right now, Chris is aware of the possibility that Catie might be a troll. If he wants to know the truth, he can find out the truth.

A friend of mine went through with that for at least two years when someone was using him for monetary gain and emotionally abusing him for giggles by making fake drama and blaming it on him. He got dumped hard two months ago when the abuser got bored of him and had no more use of him.

To a casual observer like me it first looked like a big misunderstanding. Eager to help, I tried to talk to this person and that's when the truth was revealed. I told him the truth about this person, he deserved to know it.

He was feeling suicidal after the loss of the relationship, but he became slowly better when I told him it was all a lie to begin with. He no longer felt like he lost his true soulmate. He got rid of a parasite who was lying to him for years.

He cut communications with 80% of his friends who he suspected were in on this or took the other person's side, but he no longer has a drinking problem brought on by the abuse and he is noticable more cheerful when I talk to him.

Now this friend of mine is much better off than Chris.

I really feel for your pain, Flowerwall and it was a horrible thing they did to you , but Chris is a different person. I think if he finds out the truth, he will be better off because he'll know that he was wronged by a troll and none of it was his fault this time. I base this on the behaviour Chris showed after the previous sweethearts turned out to be trolls.

Why do you think the truth is more likely to help Chris feel like nothing's his fault, compared whatever story he conjures up on his own?

 

[warongiygas]

When I first saw this post, I thought maybe you were referring to Marvin, but then I saw you were addressing Skyraider.
I don't think I've ever heard a conversation with Chris where he asks something like "So how was your day?" or "How are you doing today?" (please prove me wrong if there was).

Most of the Kacey calls involve Chris asking her how's she's doing in some fashion. It sounds more like an incidental greeting though. He knows what he's supposed to say and he knows that if he cares about a girl, he should ask how she's doing. The problem is he doesn't actualy care how they're doing. He just wants to get on about how much of a hero he is.

 

[timtommy]

We're not protecting the Chandlers from anyone though. The only people they need protection from are themselves, and there's not a damn thing we can do about that.

I see Chris like a reality TV celebrity mixed with a cartoon villain.

First off, I respect that you shared that story with us and I'm sorry you went through that. That said, I completely disagree with you. I would much prefer to know the truth, even when it's horrible. I know it's easy for me to say, but that's how I feel. Where I'm going with this is, I don't think it should be up to any of us to dictate how Chris would react to the truth. In the end, whether or not someone wants to hear a potentially devastating truth is a personal choice. In Chris's case though, we have a large body of evidence that suggests he prefers fantasy over reality, so I see how your point is valid.

As I mentioned before, If I had lied to Chris to get content, I would feel it's my responsibility to tell Chris the truth afterwards. At least, that's how I like to think I would act. In the end though, it's Catherine's decision because she's the one who has to deal with the consequences.

I have a had a similar, but not quite as bad experience. I dated a girl for a while, I thought we were happy enough. We broke up at one point. I thought it was mostly a circumstances thing. A couple years later, she was going through the apologizing step. She came to me and told me I had essentially been the other guy in a different relationship she was in and she never really liked me that much. She apologized with the best of intentions, but the upshot of it was a relationship I had moved on from with fairly pleasant memories was sort of retroactively ruined and issues from the past were moved into the present.

It's easy to say you would rather know the truth. But that is because you are picturing it as one world where you are being lied to and another world where you know the truth. It seems clear that you would want to move from the first world to the second.

But that is not really the case. The world we live in before we know "the truth" us a world where the lie is in essence the truth. Basically what we are doing when we learn we have been lied to is moving from one world with a more pleasant truth to another with a less pleasant truth.

So learning an unpleasant truth makes us worse off in the short term. In the long term, it is more complicated. If we are likely to have found out eventually, the longer the lie is perpetuated could easily make it worse. If the lie is preventing us from doing something, it is better it is over with.

In my case, if the girl had kept dating me under false pretenses for a long time, and I was not able to find someone else to be with, I would have been much off. But coming to me two years later? That definitely made me worse off. The "lie" was not affecting my life at that point, and the truth was unpleasant.

 

[Male Idiot]

Why do you think the truth is more likely to help Chris feel like nothing's his fault, compared whatever story he conjures up on his own?

I may not have the full picture as I'm not part of any troll secret circle, but Catherine broke up with Chris and Chris is still trying to get her back to him. Which is very unhealthy and I feel that he would stop if he knew "Catie" was just a fake trollsona. He would rage about it and than forget her like he forget all the other fake sweethearts before instead of trying to chase her.

 

[warongiygas]

I don't think it's your responsibility to volunteer the truth, but merely to present the offer of the truth to Chris. Right now, Chris is aware of the possibility that Catie might be a troll. If he wants to know the truth, he can find out the truth.

Personally, I feel like that's dodging the responsibility though. Sure, the information is available to Chris if he really wants to know, but he's either too lazy or deluded to ever look it up. Having the information out there isn't the same thing as calling him up and admitting that you were complicit in manipulating him and explaining why. I feel that taking responsibility would involve that explanation, as well as sitting through whatever Chris has to say to try and get him to understand.

It's a fool's errand though, and it's not something I can expect someone else to do. I'm not even convinced that I would do it myself if I was in Catherine's shoes.

 

[Ravenor]

I am of the school Chris is best left to his own, he is more interesting that way. The really interesting stuff is what he cooked up on his own.

If some one developed a trollsona that Chris would listen to and was only used to combat weens trying to genuinely harm Chris I would be for it.

What I don't like is though us treating Chris's life like some fucked up version of the Trueman show, an we are the fans who have issues with the current director and try to force a change of direction. Don't get me wrong I have a complex set of feelings regarding Chris an following him, on one hand I think he is a fucked up person who has given me chuckles but I also feel we are the closest thing he has to real friends, we care for him if no one else does even if it's in a bizarre way.

In short it's complex, and I would like to think that non of the current trolls mean harm an are just trying to poke him in the right direction for his own good.

 

[Objection!]

Chris spends his time escaping from reality. Why on earth do you think he wants to know the truth?

A normal person figuring out deception withdraws from it, Chris assumes there was a misunderstanding on the girl's part and once that's rectified that they'll come around and love him again. We've seen this time and time again.

I don't think wanting to tell Chris the truth is about what's best for him, it's for the lulz. It's for people who might want to see him suffer a little, whether or not they can admit it.

In the end, and this has been said many times, Chris believes what he wants to believe.

EDIT: Tried to make this more neutral toned because I'm not upset, just not a good writer.

 

[Ravenor]

I do think your right on that, to Chris reality is what he decides to remember.

He chose the memories he liked an wrote off the ones he disliked, an built his own personal history an self image, to a greater or lesser extent we all do this. But as with all things he takes it to the very edge of logical extremes an far beyond even when accounting for his memory issues.

Chris sadly has a active fantasy life to draw from he uses to fill in the blanks between what really happened an chooses to remember, and he relied on it for so long it's become a serious problem.

 

[Thetan]

If some one developed a trollsona that Chris would listen to and was only used to combat weens trying to genuinely harm Chris I would be for it.

Actually, this very thing happened. During my interactions with Chris, several ill-intentioned trolls tried to get to him. Some of these attempts were unbelievably elaborate.

Anyway, I exposed them. (I'm not saying this absolves me or vindicates me in any way, just thought I'd throw it out there. @Null and @KatsuKitty can back this up. I sent them screen caps of the trolling attempts.)