Trolling Ethics Debate Thread

[timtommy]

Then you've gone as far as you could go. You've given Chris good advice (like removing the piercing) and he ignored you. At this point I'd say just walk away.

What if Thetan told him Renee was made up, she was willing to text him occassionally if he wanted someone to talk to or needed advice, and she isn't comfortable sharing any personal details about yourself with him.

I think a lot of this nonsense is born out of the fact that he enjoys texting "Renee" and sometimes finds her perspective useful and helpful. He constructs whatever story he needs to so that he can keep doing it.

This way he could keep talking to her if he wanted, but the fake-persona aspect of trolling would be removed.

 

[SnergenFlergen]

It's entirely possible, yes. But coming clean and ending contact is the cleanest way to end this. Do we really need more taint photos or can we seriously just please let this go?

You contradict yourself here. You first say we have to end it by coming clean and telling Chris the truth, and then the rest of your post is about how easily hurt the poor thing is and how he's not a punching bag etc. So which is it? Tell him and hurt him, or maintain radio silence until Chris gets the message but comes away thinking that the whole thing was real?

I'm honestly not sure what you're overall message is, and I don't think you are either.

But he was actually sobbing when Kacey bitched him out in the final call. And why shouldn't he, she not only "left" him but yelled some really nasty insults at him and was frankly an abusive, passive aggressive punk to him. As for moving on so quickly, I don't buy that he was completely over it so much as he was trying to distract and use playground tactics of " OH YEAH? Well, um, look at THIS shiny new copyright, aren't you JEALOUS?"

I'd like to remind you that on the Cwcki there are 24 phonecalls between Kacey and Chris, some lasting more than an hour. In every single one of these calls, Kacey offers Chris some superb advice regarding his life, getting a job and relationships, which if he'd followed to the letter would have brought about some enormous changes in his life. She was counselling him for free and genuinely offering him some stellar ways in which he could improve himself. He did none of those things, and Kacey naturally became frustrated.

Add into the mix that Chris was trying to steal her away from her current boyfriend by slandering him repeatedly online, and actually initiated contact with Kacey by trying to decieve her by impersonating him. Then he was an immature baby to her 'father' over the phone over the course of several hours. Now you may say that my argument is invalid because these people were trolls, but you have to keep in mind that Chris was acting under the assumption that they weren't trolls, and that these scenarios were genuine. He would have acted like this regardless of their intentions.

Chris's squeaky clean child-like innocence is starting to fall apart a bit, isn't it?

And you say Chris was sobbing. I reply to this with the question so fucking what? Breakups are a part of life that we all must endure, and it's painful. It sucks. Why should Chris be protected from that? just because it wasn't real doesn't mean it wasn't real to Chris so the experience is the same, and I'd like to think he learned something from it. That, in my book, is a positive result.

Maybe she went too far but hopefully I have explained why I felt that was (at least partly) justified.

Also I enjoy that you didn't address the PandaHalo example at all. I guess we agree that that one is totally indefensible and shows that Chris gets over a 'breakup' more easily than the common cold.

As much as trolls want to believe that Chris is an unfeeling punching bag, there are levels of shit that do get to him and it's really like trolling a child in a lot of ways. Yes, it is not be the same as when one feels deep romantic love and suffers a loss, but for Chris it's still an emotional connection on some level and it absolutely affects him. I used to revel in sweetheart sagas years ago, but Kacey ruined it for me. I really do not like the sweetheart trolls because they see making him cry and getting his hopes up as victories. That crosses a line.

Kacey is a bad example of this because I believe her intentions were at least somewhat pure from the start. She had to pose as a sweetheart in order to get through to Chris, because if it was a man or someone otherwise unavailable to him offering the advice he would have labelled them a jerk and seen no incentive to following their advice.

Plus I just think you're just plain wrong about this: The only one who I saw as seeing Chris cry as a 'victory' was BlueSpike, and I absolutely agree that he crossed the line. All of the others I think were ultimately trying to offer some form of help to Chris, be that in the form of life advice or just the comfort of a relationship, all whilst providing content. Everybody wins.

See above. Chris doesn't come out of these relationships with a good-natured "Awh you guys, you got me! HAHAHAHA!", he does get upset and it hurts him. Even if he didn't have deep feelings for these girls, he believed he did and reacts as such when they turn on him. It's relative, because Chris's mental and emotional maturity put him if a different level than normal adults.

That's life.

I'll expand on that, please bear with me on this one. In our lives we may get involved with people who ultimately hurt us in some fashion. Nobody is to blame, it just happens. Chris, being the way he is, was never ever likely to have that experience. He's boring, racist, selfish, unhygienic, socially inadequate, egotistical, infantile, vindictive, ignorant, lazy, misogynistic, bizarre, naive, deluded, unappealing (both physically and in terms of personality) and generally has nothing to offer in a relationship, and would just take and take and take. This is evidenced by Chris flippantly asking Renee to have his children, not to mention house him and his elderly mother whilst offering nothing in return. I'm not A-logging, I'm stating well substantiated facts.

The expression goes it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all, and I do believe this to be the case. However fantastical those relationships were/are objectively, the fact that they are real to Chris has given him an experience that would have otherwise been impossible. I don't think you should wrap him in cotton wool to protect him from nasty breakups that we all have to go through.

I think Chris would be far more miserable to this day if he felt that he'd never had any romantic contact with anyone at all, which most likely would have been the case if not for the sweetheart trolls. I'm speculating, obviously, but reading between the lines I think its true.

Maybe I'm wrong on this, it's just my opinion.

Oh come on. A stove doesn't make moral choices, it simply has an on/off state. Anyone who chooses to troll Chris has a greater mental capacity than a household appliance (well, one hopes) and is responsible for what they do. Bad analogy.

I agree it's not a perfect analogy, but I still think it's valid.

Touching a hot stove is a painful stimulus. We react to this pain by avoiding similar situations in the future that lead us to that same outcome, perhaps by not touching the stove again or wearing oven mitts etc.

Being rejected by a romantic partner on the internet is a painful stimulus. We react to this pain by avoiding similar situations in the future that lead us to that same outcome, perhaps by bettering ourselves so we don't make the same mistakes in future relationships, or simply avoid falling in love with women on the internet who we've never met and who are likely to be trolls.

The moral choices of the source of the painful stimulus don't enter into it. You learn from your mistakes so as not to repeat them to preserve yourself from pain in the future. Chris does not do this. You put far too much stock in the importance of the source of the pain. He repeatedly gets blindly involved with strangers on the internet regardless of his previous experiences, in much the same way that the person in my hypothetical scenario repeatedly touches the stove regardless of their past experiences of doing so. My point stands.

That's a lot of words, I apologise

 

[Zamininc]

The problem with discussing the ethics of trolling Chris, and what is acceptable and what isn't, is it takes us out of our "observing" role. It implies that we should strive for influence in Chris' life, but it asks to what extent that is acceptable. I'm willing to bet that most of the people crying "ethics!" are weens that want to "troll" Chris into putting a shoe on his head.

We shouldn't be talking about ethics because we, as individuals or as a community, should not strive to influence Chris' life. Yeah, the best moments of Christory come from troll influence, but you know what? Most of the trolls fell into it, they didn't think about trolling him so much beforehand that they discussed the ethics of doing so. I mean Asperchu started as sending a few pieces of homoerotic fanart to Chris, etc.

tl;dr We're observers, there's absolutely no point in discussing ethics.

 

[Coldgrip]

What if Thetan told him Renee was made up, she was willing to text him occassionally if he wanted someone to talk to or needed advice, and she isn't comfortable sharing any personal details about yourself with him.

The question would be: Does @Thetan want that responsibility? It's one thing to troll Chris, it's another to become his life-coach. It also doesn't matter if you tell Chris you aren't comfortable with sharing certain details about yourself or hearing about certain details about him. He'll either assume you're naive on the subject and them proceed to tell you all about those embarrassing or disgusting things you didn't want to hear (like when he tried to explain "outercourse" to Megan). Or he'll just hear what he wants to hear. Or both.

I think a lot of this nonsense is born out of the fact that he enjoys texting "Renee" and sometimes finds her perspective useful and helpful. He constructs whatever story he needs to so that he can keep doing it.

That he does. All the more reason to maintain silence.

This way he could keep talking to her if he wanted, but the fake-persona aspect of trolling would be removed.

So Chris enjoys texting Renee, why should @Thetan have to sacrifice her time to become Chris' virtual mommy?

It should also be repeated that Chris will hear only what he wants to hear. If good advice causes him to stress sigh he's going to ignore it. It took Cathrine pestering him to get the piercing removed and she was supposed to be his girlfriend. What good do you think somebody that's stated they don't want a relationship with Chris will do?

Also if Chris knows Thetan's a woman he'll just pester her for china (he's already asked if she'd bear his child).

 

[WilhelmIIofPrussia]

Between the two choices I see as viable, which are:
1. Tell him once and never speak to him again
2. Never speak to him again
I see very little ethical difference.
And that difference is shrouded in uncertainty.

The question is how will Chris react to them differently? A possible second question is how will the "content" we get from Thetan (who might not be willing to continue posting in the future anyway) differ between them (and this depends on the first question)?

I think we can safely say that Chris's delusions are set in concrete. If she tells him the truth he will think it isn't Renee talking to him and might message Renee more thinking he can "get through to her eventually".
But on the other hand if she doesn't say anything then he might continue the way he has been doing, messaging her all sorts of shit.
So, really, either way, he is committed to continuing to message her "in defiance" of the dang trolls.
The only difference that I can see is how the two options affect his certainty that Renee is not a troll, and that is where our own guesses are uncertain.
I think there is some possibility (emphasis on the uncertainty here) that another, say, 3 months of total silence from Thetan might "snap" the certainty in Chris's mind that Renee is real. And along with that comes my belief in some possibility that telling him the truth just once might fuel the fire of his paranoia.

So in conclusion, I don't see much difference in either course of action affecting Chris's long-term behaviour or beliefs. I think out of the two, whichever makes Thetan feel better is the preferred option.

 

[SonChu's Oil Change]

I only speak for myself when I say that I don't enjoy the sweetheart sagas because he just doesn't learn and keeps getting invested and broken from them. But I think it's time to just let that all go, it's cruel at this point.

Diminishing returns is definitely a major factor here. I like the sweetheart search because it was just so misguided and the main focus of his life during the early days, but reality is a harsh partner to deal with and he doesn't really have any way of expressing himself in an amusing, harmless way like with Sonichu. It was great when it had a direct wish-fulfillment vehicle to add the delicious perspective that we have all come view this with.

 

[Good Soothing Coffee]

You contradict yourself here. You first say we have to end it by coming clean and telling Chris the truth, and then the rest of your post is about how easily hurt the poor thing is and how he's not a punching bag etc. So which is it? Tell him and hurt him, or maintain radio silence until Chris gets the message but comes away thinking that the whole thing was real?

I'm honestly not sure what you're overall message is, and I don't think you are either.[/QUOTE}

I am clear, and if I didn't convey that, my bad. It's a little of both - best to rip off the band-aid. Tell him, which will hurt, and then end it. Radio silence leaves room for ambiguity and false hope, which we know Chris is most likely to maintain.

I'd like to remind you that on the Cwcki there are 24 phonecalls between Kacey and Chris, some lasting more than an hour. In every single one of these calls, Kacey offers Chris some superb advice regarding his life, getting a job and relationships, which if he'd followed to the letter would have brought about some enormous changes in his life. She was counselling him for free and genuinely offering him some stellar ways in which he could improve himself. He did none of those things, and Kacey naturally became frustrated.

You're painting Kacey in a very benevolent light here. I am very doubtful that her mission was purely of self-improvement for Chris, why, that would make her a white knight! She wanted to push buttons, and get content. If she wanted to simply help him better his life, Liquid would not have been in the picture and she wouldn't have recorded or shared a thing with the forums.

Add into the mix that Chris was trying to steal her away from her current boyfriend by slandering him repeatedly online, and actually initiated contact with Kacey by trying to decieve her by impersonating him. Then he was an immature baby to her 'father' over the phone over the course of several hours. Now you may say that my argument is invalid because these people were trolls, but you have to keep in mind that Chris was acting under the assumption that they weren't trolls, and that these scenarios were genuine. He would have acted like this regardless of their intentions.

Chris's squeaky clean child-like innocence is starting to fall apart a bit, isn't it?

Hah, this is getting all Phoenix Wright now. Why do you think this is so black and white? Chris absolutely does stupid, selfish things. He even does it even when not prompted by trolls. My point is that a large part of this is because he's got the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. It doesn't give him a get out of jail free card, but it's a variable in the mix and makes him especially vulnerable to people who want to manipulate him.

And you say Chris was sobbing. I reply to this with the question so fucking what?

Well, you accused him of faking, so I pointed that out. As to your callousness about it, that's on you.

Breakups are a part of life that we all must endure, and it's painful. It sucks. Why should Chris be protected from that? just because it wasn't real doesn't mean it wasn't real to Chris so the experience is the same, and I'd like to think he learned something from it. That, in my book, is a positive result.

Except that these breakups have never been with actual, loving sweethearts. It is not a learning experience about love, it's needless drama from people who don't give a rat's ass about him. While I would say that it's taught him to be distrustful of women (which we can agree it hasn't), it HAS had a terrible effect on him in that he now has a fairly crippling paranoia about life in general. You really can't put a positive spin on that.

Maybe she went too far but hopefully I have explained why I felt that was (at least partly) justified.

We're going to have to agree to disagree.

Also I enjoy that you didn't address the PandaHalo example at all. I guess we agree that that one is totally indefensible and shows that Chris gets over a 'breakup' more easily than the common cold.

You're trying so hard to be antagonistic when really I am trying to have a conversation. Rein it in a bit. Anyway, with PandaHalo, I don't get the sense like he was as invested in her as he was with Kacey. I agree with you that he moved on very quickly with Panda and that it felt insincere, but again, I don't think he really put a lot of emotional stock in Panda.

Kacey is a bad example of this because I believe her intentions were at least somewhat pure from the start. She had to pose as a sweetheart in order to get through to Chris, because if it was a man or someone otherwise unavailable to him offering the advice he would have labelled them a jerk and seen no incentive to following their advice.

Again, see my comment about her true intentions and recording their conversations. Conflict of interest. If she was getting frustrated with him she could have done the big girl thing and come clean, disappeared or just ended it, but instead she chose to antagonize him and sling underhanded insults that he wouldn't have detected, since his social skills are already so impaired.

Plus I just think you're just plain wrong about this: The only one who I saw as seeing Chris cry as a 'victory' was BlueSpike, and I absolutely agree that he crossed the line. All of the others I think were ultimately trying to offer some form of help to Chris, be that in the form of life advice or just the comfort of a relationship, all whilst providing content. Everybody wins.

Absolutely agree regarding BlueSpike, but look back on some of the Kacey calls. She celebrates Barb calling her a bitch when the former has hung up. She and Liquid talk about getting so much content out of it. Whether or not she started out as an angel (which I just don't believe), it devolved fairly quickly into how much juicy content can we get.

I'll expand on that, please bear with me on this one. In our lives we may get involved with people who ultimately hurt us in some fashion. Nobody is to blame, it just happens. Chris, being the way he is, was never ever likely to have that experience.

You really want to make it sound like sweetheart trolls are doing him a favor, but really, they're not.

Unfortunately I have a lunch meeting but I will respond to the rest of your message this afternoon. GOTTA GO FAST.

 

[SnergenFlergen]

You're trying so hard to be antagonistic when really I am trying to have a conversation. Rein it in a bit.

It's been a long day, I sincerely apologise. I've had a bath and a cup of tea now so all is well

It's a little of both - best to rip off the band-aid. Tell him, which will hurt, and then end it. Radio silence leaves room for ambiguity and false hope, which we know Chris is most likely to maintain.

The problem with this is I am of the opinion that Chris will not accept Renee is a troll and that telling him will be entirely futile, but I agree it's probably worth a try. And as for your point of radio silence leaving ambiguity, I'm just wandering where exactly is the harm in that?

You're painting Kacey in a very benevolent light here. I am very doubtful that her mission was purely of self-improvement for Chris, why, that would make her a white knight! She wanted to push buttons, and get content.

Initially her intentions were clearly not pure but putting that aside,you cannot deny the content of those phone calls: listening to them through again, they really do contain some very good advice which Chris was keen to throw out of the nearest window. But yes I concede that a troll is a troll, regardless of the hours she spent trying to better Chris.

Well, you accused him of faking, so I pointed that out.

Pointing something out doesn't automatically make it sincere. For example 'Chris is crying in the CWC is Sad video'.

While I would say that it's taught him to be distrustful of women (which we can agree it hasn't), it HAS had a terrible effect on him in that he now has a fairly crippling paranoia about life in general. You really can't put a positive spin on that.

I thought for a while about this and I honestly disagree; His paranoia has essentially put an end to his career as a vlogger, and so he no longer uploads videos in which he makes an ass of himself on a regular basis on youtube which fed the trolls; That I would see as being a positive for him. Without the influence of the trolls he might still be doing that to this day and further destroying his own reputation and credibility.

I don't get the sense like he was as invested in her as he was with Kacey. I agree with you that he moved on very quickly with Panda and that it felt insincere, but again, I don't think he really put a lot of emotional stock in Panda.

He did all the usual stuff that he did with Kacey though (making endless videos professing his love and all that gubbins), the only difference between the sagas was the audacity of the trolls involved: Kacey and Liquid were just better at pushing his buttons and getting content, making it seem as though he was more involved. Again I could be way off-base with this.

she chose to antagonize him and sling underhanded insults that he wouldn't have detected

What we don't know doesn't hurt us, right?

She celebrates Barb calling her a bitch when the former has hung up. She and Liquid talk about getting so much content out of it. Whether or not she started out as an angel (which I just don't believe), it devolved fairly quickly into how much juicy content can we get.

Again my response would be that if Chris had followed Kacey's advice in those phone calls to the letter tor a decent chunk of time (a year or 2), he would be a very different man/woman today. Regardless of her initial intent (which I do concede was never entirely pure), the advice was good, the advice was free, and the advice as soundly ignored.

You really want to make it sound like sweetheart trolls are doing him a favor, but really, they're not.

I usually try to find the good in any bad situation. I am 90% sure that if not for the trolls, Chris would have had very, very little female contact over the years (Barb doesn't count), and given on how much he fixated on having a girlfriend in the early days (and continues to even to this day) I think he would have been a far more miserable person today, if not for his numerous 'girlfriends'. No I don't condone these people and no I don't think they set out just to help him but I think there's no harm in looking for the positives in what is already done.

Except that these breakups have never been with actual, loving sweethearts.

Nor have any of your relationships. Can you prove me wrong?

Of course not, it's an unfalsifiable hypothesis. Sorry for getting all Descartes on you, but the fact that you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that everyone you've ever dated hasn't been trolling you doesn't change the fact that those relationships were totally and absolutely real to you (even if they were trolling you and sharing your private texts in some corner of the internet without your knowledge). I believe that's how Chris feels about all of this. It was real to him, and why shouldn't it be? If Chris believes Renee to be a real person who was a TRUE and HONEST friend right up until his dying breath (in spite of the fact that we all know her to be a troll), what would the harm be?

Kinda just thinking aloud here so I'm gonna end this here

 

[Ry-Guy]

All I know is Thetan is probably regretting this whole frigging thing. Geez, it's really become a clusterf*ck, hasn't it?

 

[timtommy]

The question would be: Does @Thetan want that responsibility? It's one thing to troll Chris, it's another to become his life-coach. It also doesn't matter if you tell Chris you aren't comfortable with sharing certain details about yourself or hearing about certain details about him. He'll either assume you're naive on the subject and them proceed to tell you all about those embarrassing or disgusting things you didn't want to hear (like when he tried to explain "outercourse" to Megan). Or he'll just hear what he wants to hear. Or both.


So Chris enjoys texting Renee, why should @Thetan have to sacrifice her time to become Chris' virtual mommy?

It should also be repeated that Chris will hear only what he wants to hear. If good advice causes him to stress sigh he's going to ignore it. It took Cathrine pestering him to get the piercing removed and she was supposed to be his girlfriend. What good do you think somebody that's stated they don't want a relationship with Chris will do?

Also if Chris knows Thetan's a woman he'll just pester her for china (he's already asked if she'd bear his child).

Fair enough, I was making my suggestion based on what might be "best" for Chris. I suggested a path that involves both coming clean and not "abandoning" Chris.

Thetan seems to think the Renee character has done some good for Chris and convinced him to do a couple beneficial things. On the other hand, she seems worried maintaining the trollsona and continuing to lie to Chris isn't the right thing to do. My suggestion was a way she might be able to solve both those problems.

As you point out, it involves some effort from Thetan. I don't think she is under any obligation to do it. She clearly has the right and the ability to block Chris at any time. I was just saying that if she is looking for a middle ground to try, there is probably one out there.

 

[Tubular Monkey]

I don't know why, but this latest bunch of emails is endlessly depressing to me. Chris always seemed to have something to fall back on. There were video games, cartoons , video games. He had something to keep him occupied. He always had a master plan that would amount to nothing, but he was occupied during the long, empty hours of the here and now. I guess it was that lodestone of cartoons and video games that came crashing down when Sonic went blue. Then there was nowhere for him to be secure. What I'm seeing from Chris now is a little boy who had someone's attention that he thought once again he could make into a sweetheart. Except this time, he really needs somebody, and he's not going to let go. I think that's why the mental gymnastics have improved to Olympic quality. He's pinning all of his desperate hopes on her to fix SOMETHING if not everything he's got going wrong. And now with the modelling thing, I think he's just trying to think up reasons to stay in contact with this life form that is not Barb. He's like a little kid yelling at an adult he wants to impress, saying, "HEY! Look what I can do! Look! Look! PLEASE!"

This isn't funny angry Chris. This is desperate, pitiful, lower than I've ever seen him Chris. And yes, I'm aware that he'll more than likely snap out of it forever if they release a Sonic game with flesh toned arms, and declare personal victory over the universe and start making many more demands. But that would still only be addressing the symptom rather than the cause. Chris is in a very bad place in his life, and I only see it getting continually worse. As I say, endlessly depressing.

 

[Mitsunari]

I may be a little too late for this debate but I just wanted to say that trolling will always mean making fun of someone, and that will always be a little wrong. That said, anyone who exposes themselves (especially the way Chris does) on the internet is vulnerable to trolling. And Chris knows what trolling is very well. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me: if she continues to expose herself and trust people she meets online with no reference that they are real whatsoever, well, that blame's on her. Does she DESERVE to be trolled? I don't think it's a matter of deserving or not, it's a matter of allowing it or not. And she allows herself to be trolled. Do trolls take it too far? Maybe. If you think trolls are horrible people, maybe this forum isn't the place for you. I do believe trolls don't need to interefere too much with Chris right now, as her life is pretty much as fucked as it can get, but if it's HER who keeps contacting them (like in Thetan's case), I think it's okay for them to share what they get. It's their right too. Skyraider is another issue, but I find him pretty harmless, so I won't complain; again, if those things he found were REALLY important, they would be kept somewhere safe, not thrown around in the horde.

 

[timtommy]

I may be a little too late for this debate but I just wanted to say that trolling will always mean making fun of someone, and that will always be a little wrong. That said, anyone who exposes themselves (especially the way Chris does) on the internet is vulnerable to trolling. And Chris knows what trolling is very well. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me: if she continues to expose herself and trust people she meets online with no reference that they are real whatsoever, well, that blame's on her. Does she DESERVE to be trolled? I don't think it's a matter of deserving or not, it's a matter of allowing it or not. And she allows herself to be trolled. Do trolls take it too far? Maybe. If you think trolls are horrible people, maybe this forum isn't the place for you. I do believe trolls don't need to interefere too much with Chris right now, as her life is pretty much as fucked as it can get, but if it's HER who keeps contacting them (like in Thetan's case), I think it's okay for them to share what they get. It's their right too. Skyraider is another issue, but I find him pretty harmless, so I won't complain; again, if those things he found were REALLY important, they would be kept somewhere safe, not thrown around in the horde.

That is fairly valid. One way of putting it is that Chris puts himself out there to be interacted with. Anyone can choose to do that, but if you do you don't get to choose the interactions you have with people. When Chris spent a couple years withdrawn from his "public" life, that decision was fairly well respected, mostly because he was a lot less trollable.

 

[Good Soothing Coffee]

It's been a long day, I sincerely apologise. I've had a bath and a cup of tea now so all is well

It happens. I appreciate the apology

The problem with this is I am of the opinion that Chris will not accept Renee is a troll and that telling him will be entirely futile, but I agree it's probably worth a try. And as for your point of radio silence leaving ambiguity, I'm just wandering where exactly is the harm in that?

So, I see the harm in ambiguity is that it denies Chris any kind of closure. I don't think leaving things ambiguous protects him in any way, in that he needs to feel burned by being fooled by a troll, because that's what's happened, and then maybe there is a chance that he can learn from it. I know those chances are very, very slim, but it's better than him perpetuating a fantasy.

Initially her intentions were clearly not pure, but you cannot deny the content of those phone calls: listening to them through again, they really do contain some very good advice which Chris was keen to throw out of the nearest window. But yes I concede that a troll is a troll, regardless of the hours she spent trying to better Chris.

So I get hung up on that reasoning because of the ulterior motive. It reminds me of those missionaries who bring food and medicine to 3rd world countries and say "OK, you can have this and live another day BUT YOU GOTTA LOVE OUR GOD." The trolling motive just taints everything, pun intended.

Pointing something out doesn't automatically make it sincere. For example 'Chris is crying in the CWC is Sad video'.

When I see the final Kacey call response video, Chris's eyes are puffy, his nose red and he's sucking back snot. We're talking about here, so if you are suggesting that he went through effort to irritate his eyes and nose and wet his cheeks in this case, I don't follow. I think some people are in denial as to how much this can and does hurt Chris. He may not be in tears every time a sweetheart bails or turns on him, but it's happened and it seems to be happening more these days as he gets more desperate for love and social contact.

In particular with Catherine, I reasoned that it was well calculated that this be an open relationship, to exploit Chris's well-known and hair trigger jealousy, and to see how far he'd be willing to put up with what is, even in the best situations with consenting adults, an incredibly difficult dating arrangement. While I actually don't believe his apology to her was sincere, partly because I think he can't wrap his head around what open relationships really mean, I don't fault him or see that as a flaw in his character. He'd been taken for a ride again and at this point in his life I sense that he's probably pretty numb when he's not feeling depressed or desperate.

I thought for a while about this and I honestly disagree; His paranoia has essentially put an end to his career as a vlogger, and so he no longer uploads videos in which he makes an ass of himself on a regular basis on youtube which fed the trolls; That I would see as being a positive for him. Without the influence of the trolls he might still be doing that to this day and further destroying his own reputation and credibility.

Oh, I miss the purely Chris content too - I miss the comics, the stuff that came from his own mind and his stories and ways of coping with the world. I agree that him stopping his online presence is, as a whole, a good thing (despite that it leaves people like me with nothing to read or watch) but only in that it's good because for a while, it stopped the trolling when people lost interest and wandered off to greener pastures. Now trolls are going for the jugular and working harder to get content and that's too much, in my eyes. I really think it's time to let up and let him land in his own life again and see if he creates more on his own.

He did all the usual stuff that he did with Kacey though (making endless videos professing his love and all that gubbins), the only difference between the sagas was the audacity of the trolls involved: Kacey and Liquid were just better at pushing his buttons and getting content, making it seem as though he was more involved. Again I could be way off-base with this.

What we don't know doesn't hurt us, right?

I don't know how that works in the trolls defense though. Through whatever means they got him more invested and as a result he was more hurt when it all went down. Still not OK in my book. Heck, even Ivy knew when things were getting too real, once his parents and the cops were involved... poor Bob still buying that this woman was interested in his son and asking her to give him a chance after the fact... but Ivy took the "suicide" exit and stopped the shenanigans. Not as good as coming clean, but better than dragging things further.

Again my response would be that if Chris had followed Kacey's advice in those phone calls to the letter tor a decent chunk of time (a year or 2), he would be a very different man/woman today. Regardless of her initial intent (which I do concede was never entirely pure), the advice was good, the advice was free, and the advice as soundly ignored.

Her advice wasn't inherently bad until it was coated in a layer of passive aggression and eventually straight up antagonism. She told Chris nothing that he hadn't already been told by Rocky or any other well-meaning person in his offline life, she wasn't going to be the first to break through.

I usually try to find the good in any bad situation. I am 90% sure that if not for the trolls, Chris would have had very, very little female contact over the years, and given on how much he fixated on having a girlfriend in the early days (and continues to even to this day) I think he would have been a far more miserable person today, if not for his numerous 'girlfriends'. No I don't condone these people and no I don't think they set out just to help him but I think there's no harm in looking for the positives in what is already done..

I appreciate your optimism, but here's where I get caught up - he would have been better off having little to no contact with actual, normal women in his life than to have had this much contact with women (real or otherwise) who were out to hurt and exploit him. There's no need to have people in your life that exploit you and he's learned nothing from all of these encounters, except that he gets hurt a lot and maybe the next one will be different.

There is responsibility on the people who choose to troll him and a lot of people don't want to see that, or own it.

 

[Holdek]

One view that hasn't really been discussed is the social Darwinist perspective, or might makes right: Chris deserves to be trolled not because he's a bad person () but because he is inferiorly naive which justifies the usage of him by trolls for lulz.

Thoughts?

 

[KFC]

There are people who are currently being trolled who have it much worse than Chris, in my opinion. With that being said, I think all the fucking weenery and stalking needs to stop.

 

[Kosher Dill]

One view that hasn't really been discussed is the social Darwinist perspective, or might makes right: Chris deserves to be trolled not because he's a bad person () but because he is inferiorly naive which justifies the usage of him by trolls for lulz.

Thoughts?

I think I agree with Marvin when he once said that a lot of this trolling would work just as well on "normal" people. I mean, how often do you check to make sure your friends aren't an elaborate web of fabricated personas, or that they're not secretly recording you, etc?

 

[Holdek]

I think I agree with Marvin when he once said that a lot of this trolling would work just as well on "normal" people. I mean, how often do you check to make sure your friends aren't an elaborate web of fabricated personas, or that they're not secretly recording you, etc?

Yeah but Chris was a target in large part because his naivete ensured a greater degree of success. I might have fallen for a fake heartsweet. But probably not five fake heartsweets in a row.

Then again my brain could be hooked up to a simulator right now without my knowledge and you, along with this whole board, could be an elaborate web of fabricated personas, and Chris could be watching a recording of this ruse for lulz. That kind of bakes my noodle.

 

[WilhelmIIofPrussia]

When were these texts exchanged? I'm gathering they were pretty recent and after Chris deleted his relationship status and that, oddly in my opinion, Catherine is still communicating with him, depressing him further.

To be honest, my feelings on this are that this shouldn't be happening. The Catherine sweetheart shouldn't have been created because she's fucking him up.

 

[garbageraider]

When were these texts exchanged? I'm gathering they were pretty recent and after Chris deleted his relationship status and that, oddly in my opinion, Catherine is still communicating with him, depressing him further.

To be honest, my feelings on this are that this shouldn't be happening. The Catherine sweetheart shouldn't have been created because she's fucking him up.

Obviously, Catie is pure evil for trying to have a relationship with Chris based on mutual respect. Catie is responsible for everything bad that's happened in Chris's life, and none of it is his own fault. Chris is just an autistic little angel, flawless and completely selfless.

Not.