Undertale

[fat_rat_on_the_grass]

So im not looking at posts ITT to not get spoiled at the advice of somebody I met who was gushing about Deltarune.. I saw undertale and a little bit of the first chapter and it seemed really cute but also scary and sad, very twist turn kinda game, are the other chapters worth buying the game for/watching while I do some housework? I do like some of the songs, has some nostalgic feelings of 2000s arcade game music

 

[Jerk Sausage]

So im not looking at posts ITT to not get spoiled at the advice of somebody I met who was gushing about Deltarune.. I saw undertale and a little bit of the first chapter and it seemed really cute but also scary and sad, very twist turn kinda game, are the other chapters worth buying the game for/watching while I do some housework? I do like some of the songs, has some nostalgic feelings of 2000s arcade game music

If you watch someone else play it, you're missing out on what these games do to mess with you and your expectations as a video game player. I suppose you could experience this through someone else's reactions and explanations of what the game is doing, if that's your thing, but that sounds really gay to me personally.

 

[Lapsus of the bepsus]

So im not looking at posts ITT to not get spoiled at the advice of somebody I met who was gushing about Deltarune.. I saw undertale and a little bit of the first chapter and it seemed really cute but also scary and sad, very twist turn kinda game, are the other chapters worth buying the game for/watching while I do some housework? I do like some of the songs, has some nostalgic feelings of 2000s arcade game music

deltarune feels more doomy and gloomy sometimes a lot of the time but otherwise its basically undertale but more

 

[invisibult plus+]

Chapters 3 and 4 are out now and I honestly would rather just watch playthroughs of it. I don't even care about spoilers, I've been reading a lot of them here. Undertale really felt like it was an experience best enjoyed by playing the game, this just sounds like a big gay easter egg hunt that i'll never have time for unless I channel THAT much 'tism into it... ...The more I see, the more it comes off as a furry therapy session. I want to feel in control when I play a game, not this boo-hoo I'm an emo cutter rapist and it's not my fault. I'm a victim shit, like dude what the fuck?

yeah you can really tell that certain scenes were written by someone whose main source of inspiration for dialogue was sonic sez

and not in a funny or ironic way.

I'm not giving Toby 25 bucks for something that's best experienced for free. I can get the highlights on anyone's playthrough, without slogging through minigames or Susie expositing about her past.

View attachment 7483060
from the chapter 4 credits sequence. im not saying all these people are writing tobys game for him, but i can pretty confidently say that between the decline in dialogue quality, the clear development and scope issues and shit i found on wikipedo about toby allegedly being unable to type on a keyboard due to physical health problems, theres no way hes writing the game alone

Should've played piano with better form, Toby.

This would explain a lot. Undertale had flashbacks and minigames and exposition and all that crap, but it was better paced and more cohesive. Some felt optional, but few chewed up a lot of time. Not to mention they took up less playtime overall. However, while Deltarune's writing isn't that incoherent, it's less consistent than Undertale's, and not just because Undertale was written by one person. I'm not just talking about "kid's show writing with foreverial raped doe" either.

Basically, Kris used to be my least favorite character because he represented aspects of Toby's writing I hated. Most of his characterization up until ~4 was indirect. Other characters described his reactions, what he did in the past, etc... You might be thinking "we need enough to know that he's not your vessel, what's your point?" In an episodic game released over, what, 7 years now? That wasn't suspenseful or whatever. I shouldn't have had to wait seven years to see this.

Spoiler: kris

This was what we should've seen. Not him eating moss. A lot of it comes down to setting up expectations (to subvert them, heh), get the player used to the game while giving him a sense of control. But that worked with Frisk. Frisk, having her own completed game from the get go, wasn't hurt by this "you'll see... someday..." head-up-the-ass bullshit. Kris was really held back by Toby's "hold the story hostage" mentality. If you want us to appreciate Kris as a character, then act like it.

Likewise, Ralsei is fine. I never cared about him, and his "I know too much to know what to tell you" was not convincing. He's obviously hiding that he wants to keep his friends around and knows someone will have to die to fulfil the Prophecy. I can even forgive him for expositing to us about his wants and motivations because he's isolated. Until Kris and Susie came around, he had no one to talk to. Susie, I can see why people say she's Toby's favorite. The story favors her a lot more than Kris at this point. But her talking about her past actually hurt her character because the way it was executed is straight up kid's show writing. Even Gerson was held back by this, albeit less so. Undertale had us interact with the characters, learn about them through the environment and their behavior, and then go through exposition where need be. The reason I mentioned Gerson is that he felt closer to Undertale than Susie blabbing about how much she sucks. The scene where Gerson encourages her to keep healing and tricks her into healing Jack felt like a 90's sitcom episode about "Man, why can't I throw this baseball, coach? I keep trying but... maybe I should stick to what I'm good at." "Nah, kid, you just gotta believe in yourself."

It's a massive overcorrection. I don't need everything explained, just show me your world organically. Let the world tell your story. You already did those, you did Undertale. Except, if you didn't actually do Undertale and I've never seen your work before, how would I know, that you know, when you're not showing it?

You know why Spamton was so popular? Because Toby, knowing he couldn't afford to play "I'm not touching you" with him, made a point to let him be a character. Spamton had reasons to hold things back, he legitimately couldn't tell you everything he knew. But that didn't stop him from trying. He was also fighting against the story laid out for him. You could say that applies to the whole Fun Gang now, too, except Spamton did it in a way that was interesting and you didn't have to wait seven whole years to see.

I'm going to bring up the rose scene again because it shows how withholding too much can actually backfire. When you spend seven years stringing your audience along and encouraging them to read into shit (just so you can rugpull later). It's what happens when you don't write to tell a story, but to show off how fucking smart you are. When you bring in people whose only experience with writing is watching cartoons, it works against the rugpulls you want so badly. So yeah, I'm glad he changed the rose to shattering glass, not because he had artistic integrity, but he's been caught between PR and the kind of audience he's built up for so long. So good job, Toby. Your dream game isn't even yours anymore. Look how smart you are!

 

[soy woah jaque]

Kris used to be my least favorite character. Most of his characterization up until ~4 was indirect. Other characters described his reactions, what he did in the past, etc...

That's what made his character appealing, it was subtle, like him closing his eyes to stop you from seeing asriel's room, or when he gets mad that he can't play the piano properly because of your control, his attitude changing depending on the dialogue options you choose etc.
It's a clever and interesting way of twisting the silent, blank-slate self insert protagonist trope into an actual character with depth.
Meta level subversion like this is a huge part of what made Undertale so good.

In chapter 4 they kinda throw away all the subtlety and for some reason Kris can now play the piano anyway despite being posessed... because he just can okay?

 

[invisibult plus+]

That's what made his character appealing, it was subtle, like him closing his eyes to stop you from seeing asriel's room, or when he gets mad that he can't play the piano properly because of your control, his attitude changing depending on the dialogue options you choose etc.
It's a clever and interesting way of twisting the silent, blank-slate self insert protagonist trope into an actual character with depth.
Meta level subversion like this is a huge part of what made Undertale so good.

In chapter 4 they kinda throw away all the subtlety and for some reason Kris can now play the piano anyway despite being posessed... because he just can okay?

I understand that. The earlier subtlety with Kris resisting the player worked as hints, but 4 just shrugs them off. If he can suddenly play piano just because he can, that makes the ambiguity feel more like stalling than build-up. That kind of inconsistency is what makes the story feel more like drifting than developing. Spamton stood out because he was a subversion of that subversion. He had both build up and payoff until he's thrown in front of Tenna for a gag.

 

[Newcomer 42]

. I hope the rest of the game can come out in the next one to two years.

Keep hoping. Leftoids aren't known for doing hard work, and now Toby has actual insane trannies in his team (worse, one responsible for killing Skullgirls!). On the plus side, perhaps Nintendo will pressure them to not have an unfinished title as part of Switch 2's launch games for 4+ years. So I give it 50-50, not including stuff like sudden drama like the tranny in the team freaking out for some/any reason, Toby being cancelled, etc.

peaking of Mother 3

Spoiler

Can't work. Unless the one fighting is Noelle, Kris was a sort of friend of Des and little else. Even if it was Asriel, Kris doesn't love him that much unlike Lucas, who was a very emotive (but very sensitive) boy. Kris is a bitter husk (heh) and wouldn't hesitate too much to fight a friend, unless it's Ral or Sus, I suppose.
It would be too obvious for anyone who played Mother 3.
This would work better if there are multiple Knights, perhaps, and one of them is someone that Kris and the player cares about.

That being said I get the feeling Toby is going to pull some shit that will recontextualise Undertale in an interesting way.

I would prefer it if UT is kept separate from DR outside of a few references, as otherwise the game is not a stand-alone game AU but a sequel of some sort.
All Mother games have twists because the Japanese story-telling system includes a twist as part of the narrative, but I can't see how DR can do that and not be too melodramatic about it (ie: the game is a simulation!).

We'll see.

Basically, Kris used to be my least favorite character because he represented aspects of Toby's writing I hated. Most of his characterization up until ~4 was indirect. Other characters described his reactions, what he did in the past, etc... You might be thinking "we need enough to know that he's not your vessel, what's your point?" In an episodic game released over, what, 7 years now? That wasn't suspenseful or whatever. I shouldn't have had to wait seven years to see this.

Oh, he reacts alright, but he's subtle, a bit too much since you might not see these hints if you choose the wrong options, and the slow release of chapters didn't help.

I don't need everything explained,

I like that scene where one character explicitly warns you that it's going to be a long sequence, and if you agree, Kris is exposited to a long speech while standing here awkwardly, all tell and not show, not even a flashback.

In chapter 4 they kinda throw away all the subtlety and for some reason Kris can now play the piano anyway despite being posessed... because he just can okay?

Kris obeys the letter of your commands but not the spirit (kek), that's why deliberately misinterprets orders when he doesn't like them or follows them enthusiastically when he likes them* (outside of the Weird Route for some reason). In that scene, he's asked to play, so he does. It's a cutscene so he's taking control from you without you being aware. It's a bit of a stretch, though.

*Why does Kris have an aversion towards Alphys? UT Alphys deserves the worst, but this one is a different person, and yet Kris would do a nasty thing to her if given the chance for no apparent reason.

 

[Jerk Sausage]

Doesn't Kris rip out his heart at the end of Chapter 1 and throw it in a cage regardless of weird/normal route? I think all subtlety that Kris might not enjoy being a puppet ended there, and has just progressed over time to be more overt about it. Even if we choose all the fun-loving options and do nothing wrong, the game has been pretty explicit that Kris is not exactly a fan of us.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

So is Deltarune done or is there another chapter? Haven't touched any of it, but seems that there's enough conversation about it that it's not a waste of time.

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

Basically, Kris used to be my least favorite character because he represented aspects of Toby's writing I hated. Most of his characterization up until ~4 was indirect. Other characters described his reactions, what he did in the past, etc... You might be thinking "we need enough to know that he's not your vessel, what's your point?" In an episodic game released over, what, 7 years now? That wasn't suspenseful or whatever. I shouldn't have had to wait seven years to see this.

Honestly I wasn't that invested in Kris until chapter 4, even with his subtle characterization, he didn't do much and neither did he have much agency in the story. Which was my main problem with him, despite being the main character, the person who are playing as. He didn't seem to have a role in the story other then being woobie through who's voiceless anguish we could interact with the world.
While in Chapter 3 and 4 we're given some revelations behind his character that put his past actions in a different context and he's given agency to affect the plot in meaningful ways. He's not just along for the ride, he's working with the main antagonists, and is conflicted about that. Which I think is very compelling, he has dimensions, there's real mystery behind him and his actions. Could the twist have been less dramatic? Sure, the twist that Asgore was the King wasn't as dramatic as Kris working with the Knight, and I agree the shaky text boxes were a bit much, but those are issues with presentation, not the twist itself.

So is Deltarune done or is there another chapter? Haven't touched any of it, but seems that there's enough conversation about it that it's not a waste of time.

There's another two Chapters 3&4, 5, 6, and 7 are releasing for free, but Toby has said he might increase the price of the game over time as well.
I'd recommend pirating it before buying it, like any digital other game.

 

[Coolio55]

If he can suddenly play piano just because he can, that makes the ambiguity feel more like stalling than build-up.

Spoiler

I forgot. Does he ever play properly outside of the dark world?

 

[invisibult plus+]

Spoiler

I forgot. Does he ever play properly outside of the dark world?

Yes. When he puts you in the Holidays' vents, he walks from the kitchen to play piano off screen.

Spoiler: video

 

[Tinnitus]

*Why does Kris have an aversion towards Alphys? UT Alphys deserves the worst, but this one is a different person, and yet Kris would do a nasty thing to her if given the chance for no apparent reason.

You forgetting that Alpyhs is a shit teacher and only got the job due to Toriel? It's been revealed since Ch.1 that Kris sleeps through Alphys' class.

Kris' normal behaviour is Michael Myers, except for Asriel he's willing to do petty and creepy things to the monsters around him.

 

[Aunt Carol]

Hello friends, I have a neighborly request.

Fledgling cow Ernest Tomlinson is a trans-furry "plural" who claims to be multiple Undertale characters (one of whom is also his dead brother) in a one-sided war with Caltech and blaming the literary executors of C.S. Lewis for some kind of mass media Gnostic deception.

In his thread we're aware that a new chapter of Deltarune dropped, but unfortunately none of us has the right autism background to analyze if this is what's fueling his current emotional upset.

Despite his adjectives, Ernest is possibly the least horny furry or troon on the planet; he's really more of a classic schizocow. If that sounds interesting, I'd appreciate any Undertale fan who cares to skim an 8-page thread and make an educated guess on what his deal is, especially given any recent lore drops.

Thanks for your time.

 

[soy woah jaque]

So is Deltarune done or is there another chapter? Haven't touched any of it, but seems that there's enough conversation about it that it's not a waste of time.

This is like the fifth nigga that walks into the thread to ask retarded questions about a topic he doesn't give a shit about

Also, Kris being able to get around fine without the soul doesn't make any sense, initially it seemed like he needed it to survive and could barely get around without it, but now he only needs it to enter dark worlds (for whatever reason)
So why does he willingly give us control over him during the light world sections? Why bring the soul to noelle's house in the first place?

 

[The Lawgiver]

"Holy crap lois this is just like that time Dan harmon took over rick and morty and hired a bunch of those other guys!"
That was originally a reply to a different post but the draft removed th eone i was quoting and I didn't want to delete it.

Toby has actual insane trannies in his team (worse, one responsible for killing Skullgirls!).

Oh god that's worse than I thought. Why the fuck would he hire those guys with their track record of joining and backstab takeover/censor deals? HELL! HELL! HELL! MIKE WHY THE FUCK DID YOU APPROVE THIS

I'd appreciate any Undertale fan who cares to skim an 8-page thread and make an educated guess on what his deal is, especially given any recent lore drops.

I don't think you need to be an undertale fan to know why dumbasses online claim to be the reincarnation of several characters at once! That's been like an entire cancerous "community" for over a decade now, and the origin point of the attack helicopter copypasta!

 

[Aunt Carol]

I don't think you need to be an undertale fan to know why dumbasses online claim to be the reincarnation of several characters at once!

Definitely not a new phenomenon, no. Ernest is claiming to be several characters from a specific video game with whose lore I'm not familiar, however, so I was asking for insight on how new canon was going to affect his LARP.

Man, nobody ever claims to be "plural" and have a half dozen P.G. Wodehouse characters living in their head. That person's social media updates would be delightful.

 

[Mrsneksnekson]

MIKE WHY THE FUCK DID YOU APPROVE THIS

The game does seem on track at least, I'll hold out hope that Toby doesnt fuck it up by hiring the freaks.

 

[Solid Snek]

Definitely not a new phenomenon, no. Ernest is claiming to be several characters from a specific video game with whose lore I'm not familiar, however, so I was asking for insight on how new canon was going to affect his LARP.

Man, nobody ever claims to be "plural" and have a half dozen P.G. Wodehouse characters living in their head. That person's social media updates would be delightful.

Could possibly add that Ernie is a huge fan of the Fate/Stay anime, too, which I'm passingly familiar with, but to nowhere near the degree necessary to properly study Ernie.

So if any of yinz like laughing at schizocows, and have a double major in Undertale and Fate, we'd very much appreciate your insight. Thanks!

 

[Smack Patrick]

Yes. When he puts you in the Holidays' vents, he walks from the kitchen to play piano off screen.

Kris has been described as a notorious prankster, and in this scene when he isn't aware of our presence he walks normally.
Which to me implies the 'zombie walk' he's been doing has literally just been to fuck with us.
(If I act like a creep here. Then that nosy fucking player is probably gonna come back when he has control and check everything. He'll get a better understanding of what's going on without me explicitly telling them. So no way of Carol finding out I snitched if she's watching from somewhere.)
Seriously, if it turns out a lot of the creepy shit he's been doing is some sorta prank/way to manipulate us into checking everything then gg Kris, gg Toby.

Kris is geniunely my favourite character so far, to the point where when I pick an option he actively doesn't fuck with I reloaded to choose one he does fuck with.
Example, after the Spamton fight. Susie asks if you're alright, you can pick 'Yes' or 'No'. He's strains himself really fucking hard to say 'yes', so much so the others point it out.
If you say 'no' he starts shouting out of fear.
Which to me is interesting in and of itself to me. Why exactly was Kris freaking the fuck out?
Does Spamtons meta commentary creep him the fuck out because he know why Spamton is like that? Or is it because he realises we're autistic enough to uncover every little secret in the game?