Warhammer 40k

[Brubby Two]

The optional spikes are not the same as the dozer plate

But it is a factor in the physical space objects can take up on the table, and thus affects gameplay, and is a factor in modeling for advantage which is your main thrust here. It is different in geometry but not different in that it has a direct impact on gameplay.

t. I can't just "optionally" cut an inch off the back of a landraider, leave the sponsons off, and expect anyone to accept that because it would be cheating.

It's also not entirely true that the sponsons on the 3rd Land Raider exist in a static position, they can be modeled on the front hatches, or on the back hatches. Would you also enforce a specific modeling orientation for that? Same with the Rhino spikes, this is where things start to blur. It is more clean and cut for the HH kits yes as there are variances in the Hulls, but even in a hypothetical environment where we are only using the older kits, this problem still rears its head. There is ultimately a level of compromise that we already accept without introducing the HH hulls.

Just the same as leaving the fins off of the front of the wave serpent to give it the same profile as the falcon would be cheating and allowing it to fit in places it otherwise could not.

Yes, there are mechanical differences from the model being used, and how that model is put together, we both understand this. No one is saying this isn't a fact. It simply isn't cheating if there are statements that it is allowed, there are some models which are strictly worse in specific contexts and strictly better in others. I'm not saying this is good for creating a balanced game, I'm not saying it should be this way, I am simply stating what is. This game is already miserable in a competitive context and there are a million other games you could be playing that reflect player skill expression.

 

[p1138]

It's also not entirely true that the sponsons on the 3rd Land Raider exist in a static position, they can be modeled on the front hatches, or on the back hatches. Would you also enforce a specific modeling orientation for that? Same with the Rhino spikes, this is where things start to blur. It is more clean and cut for the HH kits yes as there are variances in the Hulls, but even in a hypothetical environment where we are only using the older kits, this problem still rears its head. There is ultimately a level of compromise that we already accept without introducing the HH hulls.

Yes, they can by modeled on the front or back. That's an option. Just like the rhino spike is an option. The vindicator dozer blade is not an option. The wave serpent fins are not an option. Simply using a smaller vehicle is not the same as changing the sponson location that the kit allows for and is not an option.

It simply isn't cheating if there are statements that it is allowed,

At a tournament, it's still cheating unless allowed via the player packet or with an exemption from the organizer.. Hell, WTC has their stupid 12 page document changing around charge rules, if you're playing at a WTC event, or the TO has indicated the event is using those rules, then it doesn't matter what GW says. Speaking of which, if you're referring to the "Legendary Units" document that GW made with the "counts-as" list? From this article?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/9Px2A3Wv/warhammer-legends-bring-your-heroes-back-to-the-battlefield-with-free-rules-downloads/

Yeah they deleted that a while ago.

This game is already miserable in a competitive context and there are a million other games you could be playing that reflect player skill expression.

Cheating wouldn't be acceptable in any other game either, but at least other games have silhouettes, or define the volumes of the models to eliminate modeling for advantage entirely. Just because other games handle these situations or do a better job of avoiding them, doesn't make it acceptable to cheat in 40k.

 

[Brubby Two]

At a tournament, it's still cheating unless allowed via the player packet or with an exemption from the organizer.

"It's cheating unless it isn't" - Bruv I'm starting to think there's a language barrier between us making this more difficult, that or adderal or sheer tism

Speaking of which, if you're referring to the "Legendary Units" document that GW made with the "counts-as" list? From this article?

No I wasn't, when I said these vehicles were allowed in 40k in the past I was talking about older editions via the imperial armor supplements. As for the comment about Admech, that was a suggestion to substitute like for like models, Castellax automatons for Kastelan bots, that sort of thing.

Cheating wouldn't be acceptable in any other game either, but at least other games have silhouettes, or define the volumes of the models to eliminate modeling for advantage entirely. Just because other games handle these situations or do a better job of avoiding them, doesn't make it acceptable to cheat in 40k.

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by playing 40k competitively is miserable, and was even more miserable in the past, horrifically unbalanced and survives off good will and dried fraternity nut juice. Avenues to cheat are just one aspect of the discarded syringe filled swamp you need to wade through

 

[p1138]

"It's cheating unless it isn't" - Bruv I'm starting to think there's a language barrier between us making this more difficult, that or adderal or sheer tism

If it's not allowed, then it's cheating. If it's been allowed at an event by the organizer, then it's not cheating because the rules for the event are set by the organizer and usually in plain English in the player packet. Even casual narrative events have a player packet you get in advance, and have an event organizer. And if you don't like how someone runs an event? You stop attending it. I don't like shitty WTC terrain, so I don't attend events that use it(fortunately I'm not in Europe, so that's a rarity here anyway but does exist).

No I wasn't, when I said these vehicles were allowed in 40k in the past I was talking about older editions via the imperial armor supplements. As for the comment about Admech, that was a suggestion to substitute like for like models, Castellax automatons for Kastelan bots, that sort of thing.

If you're playing at a 10th edition 40k tournament(again you're the one that brought up tournaments), old IA rules don't matter. If the castellax and kastelan are roughly the same size, then sure there's no reason to care as long as they're on the right size bases.

I'm not sure you understand what I mean by playing 40k competitively is miserable, and was even more miserable in the past, horrifically unbalanced and survives off good will and dried fraternity nut juice. Avenues to cheat are just one aspect of the discarded syringe filled swamp you need to wade through

Sure, but adding more cheating doesn't fix anything. Cheating is cheating, simple as. I'm aware of a lot of the jank in past editions, but those are past editions. Just because something was fine then, doesn't mean it wouldn't be cheating now. Keeping it miserable by continuing the jank is silly, especially when the specific jank isn't even in the rules anymore.

 

[Brubby Two]

And if you don't like how someone runs an event? You stop attending it.

I stated this already in the post with the treaded Proteus.

If you're playing at a 10th edition 40k tournament(again you're the one that brought up tournaments), old IA rules don't matter

Yes that's implicit that they do not apply to 10th, my statement was that hull and model variance has existed for many editions, and in some of those editions you actually measured from the guns themselves which means they had even larger ramifications than they do now, and despite this it's not been heavily stressed over. Moreover it underlined the fact that the design of the models was not informed by the rules or frameworks of the Horus Heresy (2.0 and 3.0) game as it existed when the plastic kit released (you can plainly see the 2013 copyright on the deimos image), which was something you originally brought up in one of your first replies.

What has majorly changed is terrain rules and terrain density, as well as differences in how vehicles and units in general are allowed to navigate them, but that is a new context that older era kits weren't even designed for either. Defilers and Soulgrinders are borderline unplayable in that enviornment as is. If the new terrain rules are constructed with the older kits in mind why did they not bother to try to make those work? It's all so silly.

Cheating is cheating,

I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere with this extreme fixation you have with that word.

 

[p1138]

Yes that's implicit that they do not apply to 10th, my statement was that hull and model variance has existed for many editions, and in some of those editions you actually measured from the guns themselves which means they had even larger ramifications than they do now, and despite this it's not been heavily stressed over. Moreover it underlined the fact that the design of the models was not informed by the rules or frameworks of the Horus Heresy (2.0 and 3.0) game as it existed when the plastic kit released (you can plainly see the 2013 copyright on the deimos image), which was something you originally brought up in one of your first replies.

And none of that is relevant in the context of current day. I'm not and never was talking about previous editions. I'm talking about current edition, and the same time period that GW has released plastic models of HH vehicles.

What has majorly changed is terrain rules and terrain density, as well as differences in how vehicles and units in general are allowed to navigate them, but that is a new context that older era kits weren't even designed for either. Defilers and Soulgrinders are borderline unplayable in that enviornment as is. If the new terrain rules are constructed with the older kits in mind why did they not bother to try to make those work? It's all so silly.

The new terrain rules work fine with older models. There's nothing stopping you from using a 25 year old plastic landraider or a 22 year old plastic rhino. What are you even talking about? You could setup areas of terrain in 3rd edition that a landraider couldn't just drive through and would need to go around a different way. And those kits are older than the FW stuff from HH. Just the same as you could setup terrain where a landraider couldn't completely hide behind it and stay out of line of sight. It suddenly becomes a lot easier to hide a landraider when it's smaller because you're using a different model.

I'm not sure we're going to get anywhere with this extreme fixation you have with that word.

It's pretty simple. I don't care if something was allowed in a previous edition. If I'm not playing that edition, and you want to use models that are clearly sized incorrectly which only serves as an advantage, that's cheating. Like I said, in your casual pick up games you can do whatever you want. If I show up for a random pickup game at the store and my opponent suddenly has a bunch of models that are somehow 15% smaller than what they're supposed to be, I'm walking the hell away as I'm not going to waste my time with that shit because I don't care if they're using some other random models. Now if they printed or cut out the correct footprint and put that under the model because they want to use a different version or a really old variant, I'd be fine with that since it avoids the entire issue of the model being under-sized(even though it'd look a bit shitter, at least it means the model could be played and measured correctly).

Doesn't matter if it's 40k or any other game that doesn't have silhouettes or some other means of specifying the model volumes. This isn't a difficult concept and isn't even specific to 40k or HH. The idea that we need to accept the cancerous jank of past editions of 40k "just because" is bullshit, and if that's the case then it'll never move beyond being a shitty game like it was in past editions.

 

[winderson_silva]

Played the new Operation in Space Marine 2. Enjoyed it, nice to see a proper boss. After that, I tried some fast matches, and got my ass kicked because they were all Chaos ops and I had no idea how the fuck I'm supposed to deal with Chaos Spawn as a Heavy unless I got lucky with headshots (only 2 classes left for prestige 1)

 

[Judge Dredd]

Interesting interview.

Talks a lot about old GW retail, and shows my memories aren't just rose tinted nostalgia, but a deliberate tactic they aimed for.

It's also interesting how none of that applies now. It reminds me of the supposed legend of Starbucks coffee. The owner made it popular by making the stores a nice place to hang out like European coffee places, but then shareholders demand they are made unpleasant to get people out the door asap. If they aren't buying, they're wasting money. The stores tank so they bring the original guy in to fix it, and the cycle repeats.

Im sure most people wont give a fuck as long as you give them the heads up. I mean, that guy, he has an issue with everything but most people wouldnt care too much.

Those teams and Novitiates are essentially legends for tourny play but KT treat that differently since its so new.

Is it worth looking into buying/pirating or no? I'm getting into K47 atm so dont want to spread too thin.

 

[p1138]

Interesting interview.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=FcbStv645XUTalks a lot about old GW retail, and shows my memories aren't just rose tinted nostalgia, but a deliberate tactic they aimed for.

Definitely an interesting video, and this channel has had some other interesting stuff in the past too. But specifically this video, aside from getting a laugh at early 90s UK nerd fashion(lol) it's interesting seeing how(and why) the shops were run and providing the experience they did that we just see people go on about today. Even the big with the leaving the lights on so the drunks walking around could see the cool painted minis in the window just sounds weird today.

Then talking about their expansion... picking towns with soccer teams(money), picking towns with early learning centers(money). Shit makes perfect sense. I've been in sales dealing with adults, it's annoying. Talking about the tactics they used to sell to kids, I couldn't do it. I think this video does a good job of explaining to people outside the UK what the hell UK fans from the 80s/90s are talking about from the side of one of the guys responsible for putting the rose tinted glasses on a bunch of kids.

It's also interesting how none of that applies now. It reminds me of the supposed legend of Starbucks coffee. The owner made it popular by making the stores a nice place to hang out like European coffee places, but then shareholders demand they are made unpleasant to get people out the door asap. If they aren't buying, they're wasting money. The stores tank so they bring the original guy in to fix it, and the cycle repeats.

I can't speak to them actually mimicking european coffee shops, but they absolutely did have a "hang-out" culture for years, that they then replaced because they wanted people in and out as quickly as possible, and as you mentioned swapped back to being a hang-out location after bringing the original founder back. At this point starbucks has competition all over the place though as you can get a large mocha frappabullshit with hazelnut and chocolate chips from mcdonalds or one of many other chains all over the place, while starbucks is the most expensive and the overall quality is shit. Meanwhile mom and pop shops and of course other chains have existed for years filling the gap starbucks left and you can get your bullshit sugar bomb drink without it costing $7+ tax.

 

[CervixHammer]

Hot damn that is a nice looking Daemon Prince of Nurgle:

(from the new Warhammer Quest coming out whenever)

 

[augment]

It must have been difficult for the sculptors to resist the urge of adding a thousand little greeblies and Nurgle details to the mini.

 

[NeonFlux]

Is Deathwing any good? I know it's made by the same guys who made E.Y.E: Divine Cybermancy.

 

[The tired cat]

Is Deathwing any good? I know it's made by the same guys who made E.Y.E: Divine Cybermancy.

Single player wise? it's kinda shit. Multiplayer wise? You can have some fun, but you WILL need friends for it.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Is Deathwing any good? I know it's made by the same guys who made E.Y.E: Divine Cybermancy.

It's not the complete train wreck Total Biscuit and co. said it was, but it never really gets above the heady heights of "adequate". I never found people willing to play it.

 

[NeonFlux]

Single player wise? it's kinda shit. Multiplayer wise? You can have some fun, but you WILL need friends for it.

It's not the complete train wreck Total Biscuit and co. said it was, but it never really gets above the heady heights of "adequate". I never found people willing to play it.

What about Hired Gun? It seems like it wants to be boltgun, but it fails at it.

 

[The tired cat]

What about Hired Gun? It seems like it wants to be boltgun, but it fails at it.

I'd say it's more cheap version of Doom, cause it has executions, rall running and sliding. Again, like Deathwing has a great art direction and atmosphere. Combat wise however? You either get enemies that stupidly run your ass or will try and snipe ya, with the game loving to throw a lot of them. An executions being madly made, it really becomes a clusterfuck to see where shit is hitting ya from.

 

[Hermann von Salsa]

I just had a thought, what would happen if the Imperium tried sacrificing a captured Eldar to power the Emporer?

 

[iceteayo]

If you are actually an admech chud who hates the new shit and wants 30k usable in 40k I feel like you’d like 30k more rules wise

 

[Second Missing Primarch]

Hot damn that is a nice looking Daemon Prince of Nurgle:
View attachment 8222335
(from the new Warhammer Quest coming out whenever)

It goes up for pre-order this Saturday. I foresee a lot more people buying it to proxy the minis into various AoS/Old World armies than actually playing the game.

 

[p1138]

Is Deathwing any good? I know it's made by the same guys who made E.Y.E: Divine Cybermancy.

Like others have said, requires friends willing to put in the time to play it but the grind to actually unlock and upgrade shit is ridiculous and it isn't likely if you can convince a group to play it, that you'll actually stick with it very long because there just isn't that much to do.

Russianbadger and his pals making memes out of it makes the game look far more entertaining than it actually is.

On a completely different topic, the new GW video making fun of so many ultramarines releases would actually be kind of funny if it weren't just to sell merch.

https://merch-usa.warhammer.com/collections/ultra-mad