Warhammer 40k

[Picnic_Boy]

AoS is pure crap and 40K is pretty much beyond the point of caring about for sure. (Although to be fair, it does seem like 8th ed is quite a decent ruleset).

I've abandoned it all except HorusHeresy/30K. It still has some of the feeling of the Warhammer I knew and loved.

They do seem to crank out some lovely models at least (Genestealer Cult, Necromunda gangs) in between their overpriced overblinged bobblehead models (Custodes etc.). So there's still stuff worth giving them money for.

It's pretty odd, some folks think GW is in a creative death spiral, and just as many see it as a golden age.

Whichever side you fall on, I hope we can agree that the Custodes are stupid. Worst release in...well...ever?

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

It's pretty odd, some folks think GW is in a creative death spiral, and just as many see it as a golden age.

Whichever side you fall on, I hope we can agree that the Custodes are stupid. Worst release in...well...ever?

Emperors Golden Trumpmarines! You're lucky that you get to have that as your biggest issue. They finally wake up Robot Girlyman for us loyal Ultrasmurphers to lord over all you inferior players and he looks like a special needs kid in toy power armor taking a shit.

And the worst part of this? The hurtful part? Like a year previously for 30k Forgeworld managed to spit out this, which is exactly what he ought to look like:

 

[MidUSA]

It's pretty odd, some folks think GW is in a creative death spiral, and just as many see it as a golden age.

Whichever side you fall on, I hope we can agree that the Custodes are stupid. Worst release in...well...ever?

It's a golden age in that they finally got rid of their supreme idiot Kirby from whatever executive position he was occupying (CEO?) and have started to act more like a regular company. It's a creative death spiral in that anything new they release that's not a reimagining of some 80's property is mainly taking something existing, make it bigger and cover it in digitally sculpted greeble. (Keeping FW a semi-autonomous entity seems to have insulated them somewhat from the fate of regular GW)

So for a longtime wargamer insulated in the GW bubble, when GW start doing things any reasonable company would have done for years or even decades by now, it looks like some amazing innovation. Things like interacting online with their fanbase in two -thousand-fucking-eighteen.

At least the Custodes have some presence in the lore and are somewhat of a decent concept in general (if not for an army). I'd personally rate bringing back the primarchs to 40K as a worse release as it lessen the scope and scale of the setting. Having the primarchs be connected to the heresy era but then lost and dead, gave the setting a feeling of scale and gravitas. Having people just pop back and everything being focused on a few ubermarines duking it out again makes it feel like crappy Marvel superero stories where no death ever mean anything and the whole universe (despite supposedly being made up of millions of planets and billions upon billions of people) is actually just a handful of supercharacters punching each other over and over again.

The whole AoS setting is the worst crap ever of course and the Stormcast/Sigmarines in particular. But that's outside the scope of 40K I suess.

 

[Picnic_Boy]

My problem with the Custodes, really, is that if they ever actually took to the battlefield en masse, it would mean the Imperium is fucked.

I've been brought back to 40k by 8th Edition, specifically because my Tyranids are good again!

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

My problem with the Custodes, really, is that if they ever actually took to the battlefield en masse, it would mean the Imperium is fucked.

I've been brought back to 40k by 8th Edition, specifically because my Tyranids are good again!

The thing is with the tag system in 8th ed the focus in army buildings is starting to play into my hands. The Imperial army is composed of Astra Militarum with Astartes as a minority and Mechanicum, Custodes, Sisters and Inquisition as specialist units. You can field that under 8th, at least to a degree.

 

[Adamska]

Last session of Only War, only half my group showed up. Rather than cancel like I tend to do when that happens I said fuck it, we're doing a downtime session.

In said downtime, they stumbled onto starving rich people still enslaving the poor and decided to pump them for info, dug through rubble of the wealthy district and finding charred corpses from their last fight, learned about the technophobic savages of New Siddartha a bit, and found a cosplay shop full of heresy and nerdery. The group now has cosplay barbarian suits they may or may not use to try and sneak into a Rajip slaver camp.

I did learn that I needed more murderhobo action given one of my player's predilections, so I now have patrols planned on top of this if this happens again too.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

wOOt I did another thing. 80's cheesy Space Marines FTW.

I thought this was a Thunder Warrior (which, now I think of it, are a bit of a nod to RT-era SMs, anyways).

EDIT: @Adamska, sounds like you have a pretty fun group. I've been longing to run/play OW or DH, but I've been stuck in the planning stage for a while.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

I thought this was a Thunder Warrior (which, now I think of it, are a bit of a nod to RT-era SMs, anyways).

EDIT: @Adamska, sounds like you have a pretty fun group. I've been longing to run/play OW or DH, but I've been stuck in the planning stage for a while.

Technically it is a Thunder Warrior however its baseplate reads "Marine MK1 GW86"

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

Has anyone read up on the happenings at the Los Vegas Open?

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

Has anyone read up on the happenings at the Los Vegas Open?

Yes and the fact that someone got called out at a high level event for pointing out a rules infraction during there game is mind blowing.
It isn’t bad sportsmanship to point out somebody broke a rule and if it were a professional sporting event everyone would be on the side of the person or team that points it out.

The reason frontline gaming made such a deal about it was because it happened on the stream. If I was in the running to win nearly $4,000.00 and an opponent messed up like that, i’d sure as hell stop them as well.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

Yes and the fact that someone got called out at a high level event for pointing out a rules infraction during there game is mind blowing.
It isn’t bad sportsmanship to point out somebody broke a rule and if it were a professional sporting event everyone would be on the side of the person or team that points it out.

The reason frontline gaming made such a deal about it was because it happened on the stream. If I was in the running to win nearly $4,000.00 and an opponent messed up like that, i’d sure as hell stop them as well.

Well there's also the fact one guy took an hour for a single turn and was complete prick to the guy he was playing against, but the other in question was quite chill about it. He got like what was it? $10k to $15k to a children's charity of his choice. Because of that guys assholedness, rules were chanced for their tournaments. When rules change because of how much you yourself are an asshole, it's time to find a new game.

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

Well there's also the fact one guy took an hour for a single turn and was complete prick to the guy he was playing against, but the other in question was quite chill about it. He got like what was it? $10k to $15k to a children's charity of his choice. Because of that guys assholedness, rules were chanced for their tournaments. When rules change because of how much you yourself are an asshole, it's time to find a new game.

The tournament scene has huge problems with slow play. I firmly believe players should have an allotted amount of time for each turn and clocks should be given at each table.
The money to charity was 10k I believe as it was the guy who runs the LoL tournaments and GW both donated 5K each, gonna have to watch the stream again in terms of the guy being an ass I think once again it comes down to the money involved.
I’ll check the stream again in full but I remember he got to the finals and got called out for his own infraction.

 

[MidUSA]

Primarily I'd say the incident does shine a light on how the game is seriously flawed when it comes to any kind of competitive play.

You can never get rid of slowplaying in 40K as long as the game has you perform actions during the opponents turn. I think 40K is thoroughly unsuitable for any type if competition where money is on the line, as there will inevitably be friction between what the rules allow you to do, and a host of unwritten "sportsmanship rules" that limit this. Unwritten rules that will vary between gaminggroups

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

Primarily I'd say the incident does shine a light on how the game is seriously flawed when it comes to any kind of competitive play.

You can never get rid of slowplaying in 40K as long as the game has you perform actions during the opponents turn. I think 40K is thoroughly unsuitable for any type if competition where money is on the line, as there will inevitably be friction between what the rules allow you to do, and a host of unwritten "sportsmanship rules" that limit this. Unwritten rules that will vary between gaminggroups

There's a good reason why you rarely see GW do their own tournaments and have other companies and tournaments do it for them. They also seem to have different rules for each one so one problem is a cohesive set of tournament rules like you get in other games.

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

There's a good reason why you rarely see GW do their own tournaments and have other companies and tournaments do it for them. They also seem to have different rules for each one so one problem is a cohesive set of tournament rules like you get in other games.

The ITC is starting to streamline itself with GW but atm it’s just rulings and not event structure.

 

[Picnic_Boy]

I've always been enamored of Orks, but is there a way to build a functional Ork army that doesn't rely on transports?

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

I've always been enamored of Orks, but is there a way to build a functional Ork army that doesn't rely on transports?

@Caddchef is your expert here but why would you want to? Orks are basically the Mad Max warboys of the 40k universe. Vehicles are thier entire identity. It would be like building a Space Marine army but forgoing the power armor and just using scouts for everything.

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

I've always been enamored of Orks, but is there a way to build a functional Ork army that doesn't rely on transports?

Bikes, Kannonz and lots of gretchin for screening units.

 

[RadicalCentrist]

Has anyone read up on the happenings at the Los Vegas Open?

Got a source for this? Google gives me nada

 

[MidUSA]

@Caddchef is your expert here but why would you want to? Orks are basically the Mad Max warboys of the 40k universe. Vehicles are thier entire identity. It would be like building a Space Marine army but forgoing the power armor and just using scouts for everything.

Ever heard of the Snakebites klan?

Got a source for this? Google gives me nada

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/750827.page

Spoiler: Two takes on the situation:

Hello everyone, Geoff “iNcontroL” Robinson here discussing for your reading pleasure the streamed etiquette incident that went down at the LVO and how we can benefit from this moment in time.


What Happened:
Two of the best players you can experience playing Warhammer40k squared off in an advanced round of the 2018 LVO. These players are Alexander Fennel and Tony Grippando. For the purpose of this article, if you could do me the solid: when you see either name please make the sign of the cross and mutter “long may he reign” when we refer to Alex and can you squint and grit your teeth (not too hard) and mutter “please don’t say that name” when you read Tony. It will set the theme nicely.


This match was streamed. This is an important part of this because we aren’t selling out stadiums (YET) but we do have the awesome luxury of being viewers on a stream due to the fantastic dedication to make that possible by the FLG crew. Fortunately/Unfortunately this also means we have over a thousand people ready to bare witness to how we play and what is going on. It can also add stress and can make an already difficult situation, even more so. I say this not as an excuse but rather as a way to set the table for what is to come.

The match featured Alex (long may he reign) playing Space Wolves (mostly) and Tony playing Aeldareeeeeeee (Eldar). Both players had recently been selected by Sean Nayden (Team USA’s Captain) to be members of Team USA to go off to a foreign land and underperform at the ETC. A huge honor in Warhammer 40,000 and of course something we all take very seriously. Aside from tha Alex and Tony have competed, practiced and socialized as they are both top players in a community that while growing is still very small.

Tony’s deployment/first turn took something along the lines of 1 hour. This is incredibly inefficient and when the total game is supposed to be 2.5 hours can also become a problem. Whether that factored in or not I do not know as I have not asked Alex (long may he reign) directly but speeding up the remainder of the game is expected. When the time came for Alex (long may he reign) to take his turn he began by deploying one of his Assassins. This is something you would need to do “at the end of the movement phase.” This isn’t nothing by the way. Sometimes where we want to drop those deep strikers is in a place occupied by normally deployed units OR how far something advances and thus can then synergize with the unit arriving from reserves can also benefit from knowing exactly where something like an Assassin would be. Bottom line: Alex moved improperly and he knew it. Alex doesn’t contest this and freely admitted it on the stream. Tony Super-Helpful-Here-Let-Me-Measure-That-For-You Grippando was NOT WRONG in enforcing a order of operations mistake on Alex. But, but… butttttttttttttttttt — it was wrong to do it. The worst part? We all know it. Nobody on the stream, at the event or wearing the skin of Tony or Alex for one second thought it was OK. I will get to that later though.


Alex having not moved his entire army, an army of which is made up mostly of assault units called it then and there only moments later deciding to play it out. The game however was mostly over and we didn’t get to see two top tier players duke it out but rather one player exemplifying class and another (unfortunately) embodying what many would call the worst side of Warhammer 40,000 competitive play.

The game would result in Tony winning only to then face Nick Nanovati who would “Tony him” and jump his overall ITC score by ONE POINT to win $4,000, tons of prizes AND the title of ITC and LVO 40k champion.. WOAH. If people wanted justice.. well, they got it. But lets break down this event and talk about how we can all walk away from this better people.

Tony Grippando
Tony by the way, is not a bad guy. In fact, he is super nice. Am I saying this because he could crush my head like a pineapple with his rippling muscles and strangely perfectly angled jaw? Nope. In my time I was pretty buff too.. but we can talk about my body at a later date and preferably after I’ve been exercising for awhile. Tony is a top tier player who had a helluva year. His ATC team won for like, the 4th time? Which is amazing. He was at the top of the ITC which considering it has 7,000+ people involved is incredible AND he was in the top 8 at the LVO. But beyond that I’ve been around Tony and whether you want to believe it or not I am here to tell you he is a nice guy. Perhaps more relevant though is that he LOVES Warhammer 40,000 and competes at the highest level. That could be the excuse we make here for him. Surrounded by his peers at the final tourney of the circuit he was a few wins away from realizing his goals/dreams and nothing was going to stop him. Tony is also a young guy and in my experience in THESE moments specifically you can sometimes act out of character to help get that final push across the line.


Excuses or not the etiquette and “code of conduct” we Warhammer 40,000 players hold ourselves to IS important. It’s unofficial (in most competitions) but it’s unversally known. Had Alex’s movement been anything but him trying to speed up the game what Tony said/did wouldn’t be looked down on. We all make mistakes. But to help him measure out a move you were then going to point out signifies the end of his phase.. knowing this was clearly not what he intended is the kind of Warhammer 40,000 WE DON’T WANT TO WIN BY. We’ve all met “that guy” and if you haven’t? There is someone who is reluctant to attend a tourney because of the stereotype of “that guy.” Now, in my experience this kind of thing is rare and most people would never do what Tony did.. especially to a teammate, friend and in the final rounds of the biggest Warhammer 40,000 tourney _ever_. If you are interested in a big debate on how this is incorrect or “#TonywasFramed” please take it elsewhere. I am not stating my own personal opinion I am sharing with you the incredibly established sentiment that is universally known on matters such as these. What should Tony have done? I’m fond of saying things like “Hey Alex, you have to do this at the end of the phase. Remember that please! I don’t want to give you more mulligans” or “hey man they come in at the end” etc etc. With a player like Alex you are only saying that once and he is realizing that you are going to be tight on order of operations and he will act accordingly. This is the part where a lot of people feign ignorance and start saying “WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE? If a dude gets killed in overwatch do we let him TAKE IT BACK?” No, no you silly, silly internet troll. That is again where we reference the unfortunately unofficial “code of conduct” in Warhammer 40,000 which can loosely be described as “do I want to win that way?” or “is what I am doing making my opponent feel icky?” — for some this is too nebulous and they will be frustrated that it isn’t written in a tome or carried around on a leatherbound book and chain from a 30 foot tall robot judicator but we aren’t there yet.

Besides.. it isn’t like we don’t have role models on how to act at a Warhammer40k tourney…

Alexander Fennel
Having already broken down the incident I will simply talk about his reaction. Alex could have flipped out, he could have stormed off or.. being half British he could have removed his white satin glove, slapped tony and then tossed his “piping” hot tea in the face of the foe.


But Alex didn’t do those things.

Alex instead thought about it, realized he was technically in the wrong, assessed that he was strategically behind and probably couldn’t win (he was right) and said “good game.” He then thought better of it and declared he wanted to put on a show for the stream (immediately thought of others). They played it out with Tony almost never mentioning the incident and while crippled and behind Alex put up a fight and gave the stream viewers something to watch. Had he quit and walked away the FLG stream which organized front-page coverage for this event would have had a 2.5 hour block of nothing and lost viewers. The viewers would have ONLY the incident to watch and nothing more.

If that hasn’t made you happy yet, wait, there is more. Watching this particular game was the co-founder of Riot Games. Heard of them? They make a little game called League of Legends. Marc Merill was so moved by the show of sportsmanship that Alex displayed he tweeted saying he wanted to donate a $5,000 sportsmanship award in honor of the class act that is Alex. Upon hearing this Alex began to go to work on forwarding 100% of this $5,000 donation to a children’s hospital fund which has at this stage morphed into Alex’s employers also pledging to match the donation to the Children’s Hospital! Literally, the high-ground you thought Alex was perched on was merely an illusion…he’s like 6 levels higher and we can all only hope to aspire to that level of class.


The Teachable Moment
Winning is important and getting those accolades might not mean that much to all of you but to the top tier competitors in our little world of Warhammer 40,000 it IS very important. What Tony did to some might not be that big of a deal and to others is the worst offense…either way the take-away-thing for us here is that you don’t want to win that way. Be gracious, friendly and jovial. Be stoic, serious and tight. Both are fine. But bridging those play styles needs to be a gentleman. A class act or a role model. If you are doing something that calls into question those things and you are fighting for a title…maybe think about that? We’ve had people win major tourneys but when the path to get there is marred with drama or shadiness we don’t even talk about the win. That moment is tarnished. Alex took the loss and made it into a win. He is inspiring the best part of Warhammer 40,000 which is being a damn good general AND A BETTER HUMAN. As someone who…is known to be a bit snarky and maybe even a pinch mean from time to time I too can learn from Alex. I want to be that kind of opponent. The one where people respect the list, fear the general and look forward to the honor of squaring off with them knowing that if they win they outsmarted / played him and didn’t fall victim to Alex getting rules wrong in his favor, playing “gotcha” hammer or going back on his word.

We are lucky to have players like Tony with his great skill and tremendous ability. We are just SUPER lucky to have players like Alex who can show us how to conduct ourselves and turn a potentially stinker moment into one of the greatest shows of sportsmanship to ever grace Warhammer 40,000.

So, just to make sure I'm understanding this.

Two guys are playing a high stakes game. Guy A does something you can only do after immediately having moved your army. Then goes back to try and move the army, which results in him being told he's moved the game to the next phase now, and no take backsies because he's in a tournie.

Guy A then quits because he reckons that means he's lost automatically (having been strategically disadvantaged by not moving anything). But due to the extreme goodness of his humanity, he decides to actually play the game he just set up because people are watching. He loses (as everyone expected). But due to his apparently amazing show of sportsmanship in carrying on with the match, everyone gives lots of money to charity.

I'm all in favour of giving cash to charity for whatever reason. But if my reading of it is right, it happened because he deigned to carry on playing a game when it was apparent he'd lost, something people do every week down their local. Am I missing something?