Western Animation - Discuss American, Canadian, and European cartoons here (or just bitch about wokeshit, I guess)

[Kari Kamiya]

Not to get too anal about this, but there's been a lot of bluster over the effects of the E/I act, which was, in the immediate term, not very effective.

It took out the lesser networks on Saturday morning, like NBC and CBS, neither of whom were really giving a damn at this point. But One Saturday Morning on ABC had an entire lineup of nominally E/I shows (which was mostly because they were in school) and it was very, very successful. Similarly, Fox Kids and Kids' WB both had weekday lineups, so it was pretty easy to deal with E/I content - a half-hour a day would be the minimum 3 hours required.

As for cable, they did take a chunk of Saturday morning's profits out at the time, but the networks could hold their own. Look at the huge success of Pokemon back then (and before you say "it was because of the games," I remember that the games really only became popular after the show - I really do).

I get'cha. I remember when the WB became the CW and Kids WB up-and-died, yet 4KIDS had bought that block, and by taking over, it felt a lot different. It was a weird change, I don't really know how to describe how it felt at the time. But it had gotten a lot harder to find other cartoons outside of PBS by then (which I don't recall having cartoons on Saturdays, at least not at that time, but even their line-up wasn't appealing to me), and it seemed like everywhere else would rather air E/I shows--live action ones at that, so I brushed it off and continued watching.

I do have a feeling that the CW network was just getting tired of cartoons taking up a block they could've used for something else, so they were slowly suffocating the block. However, I wouldn't put it past 4KIDS to have not been able to work things out with that block and it ended up falling apart on its own--a similar thing happened with Saban Entertainment and Fox Kids from what I've read up on it.

Since a lot was going on when it came to TV networks, I guess there's really no one exact answer as to why it is cartoons just slowly lost their luster--at least on non-cable networks. It's not something that could be explained all in one video, I suppose.

Still does suck that a lot of these cartoons still have of yet to get proper home video releases, though... The Internet could only save so much.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

I get'cha. I remember when the WB became the CW and Kids WB up-and-died, yet 4KIDS had bought that block, and by taking over, it felt a lot different. It was a weird change, I don't really know how to describe how it felt at the time. But it had gotten a lot harder to find other cartoons outside of PBS by then (which I don't recall having cartoons on Saturdays, at least not at that time, but even their line-up wasn't appealing to me), and it seemed like everywhere else would rather air E/I shows--live action ones at that, so I brushed it off and continued watching.

I do have a feeling that the CW network was just getting tired of cartoons taking up a block they could've used for something else, so they were slowly suffocating the block. However, I wouldn't put it past 4KIDS to have not been able to work things out with that block and it ended up falling apart on its own--a similar thing happened with Saban Entertainment and Fox Kids from what I've read up on it.

Since a lot was going on when it came to TV networks, I guess there's really no one exact answer as to why it is cartoons just slowly lost their luster--at least on non-cable networks. It's not something that could be explained all in one video, I suppose.

Still does suck that a lot of these cartoons still have of yet to get proper home video releases, though... The Internet could only save so much.

I think a big part of that is that kids were driven to the cable networks by the relative monotony of the major networks, and they never came back. By 2001, let's say, Saturday morning was dead.

And when I say monotony, I mean it. Fox Kids had jettisoned its lineup for the fall of 1999 to mooch off the Pokemon craze (take a look at this press release and see how many of these shows ended up on the actual lineup) and Kids WB had done the same by 2000. ABC had One Saturday Morning, of course, which provided some variety, but if you didn't really like the kind of shows they had, well, you went to cable, where things were new and interesting. And since cable had been steadily growing throughout the 90s, it reached a point where they could be a real threat, and the kids never returned.

A lot of these cartoons haven't gotten proper home video releases because they are owned by companies who are totally indifferent to them. There's always hope for the future, though.

 

[Jewelsmakerguy]

I remember seeing a few of those shows back on TV, but me being a Canadian, I could just simply catch them on YTV (as they aired most of those mentioned in the press release). The others I never even saw until the advent of YouTube.

To me, Saturday died in the mid-2000s when YTV started shifting their action shows to the afternoons and they dropped a huge chunk of their library (They're how I managed to see shows like Jetsons and Rocky and Bullwinkle on Sundays, but that's another matter for another time). And by the late 2000s where they just became SpongeBob-reliant, they were going down further and further.

Also, because I can't find the main Simpsons thread:

 

[Trilby]

First off, I will say He-Man was NOT and NEVER WAS Saturday Morning.

Though it seems like in the context of what the guy's going with, I suppose lumping in weekday morning/afternoon cartoon block works just as well.

Upon the history part, the actual first show NBC did was called "Tele-Comics", while Crusader Rabbit was initially pitched to NBC (aside from also airing on its West Coast flagship), as it was syndicated to other markets outside network programming.

A lot of early attempts at sticking anything animated on for kids during the 1950's often ranged from silent films from the 1910's and 20's with added music scores to repackaged/redubbed foreign cartoons, mainly from Europe. It was really trying times for any local station that had to set up a kiddie show hosted by a cowboy, a space cadet or a clown to show stuff like this...

Crusader Rabbit was a first in trying to bring something 'animated' to the small screen in the best way possible due to the budgets provided. A lot of this is dealt with in Keith Scott's great book on Jay Ward called "The Moose That Roared". Other such forgotten gems followed like Spunky & Tadpole, Bucky & Pepito, Paddy the Pelican or even Jim & Judy in Teleland (and I'm not making up these titles, look 'em up!). It really took Joe and Bill's "Ruff & Reddy" for the formula for effective limited TV animation to take off. The 1960's was technically when Saturday morning really happened when a day set aside to place these shows at all. Parents were still in bed for the most part back then like all good suburbanites were.

In another video, I do believe he mentioned (live) action shows being why a particular network fell apart. For this one, he brought up four things that contributed to the downfall Saturday morning cartoons:

1) Rise of technology

In fairness, who wouldn't. Even my family had all the video consoles and a VCR in the early 80's. That Panasonic ad reminded me this was our first VCR we ever had, though it was re-branded as a JCPenney's instead (because people still bought things that way)! I still got this damn camera!

2) Cable networks

This one was rather gradual. Much like the early days of TV in America, the same could be said for cable TV as well. Nickelodeon in particular was nothing like the powerhouse they were after the 1990's, so their initial output often included tons of foreign toonage we couldn't get anywhere else there! USA Network was once known for their "Cartoon Express" block, which was mostly dominated by older Hanna-Barbera product before more original productions started to replace it in the 90's.

Afternoon cartoon was not a new thing in the 90's, but in terms of 'original programs', that really started with He-Man in '83, since syndicating cartoons on weekends usually was filled up with older theatrical shorts like those from WB, MGM and so-on, an occasional rerun of The Flintstones or another network show from Saturday morning's past might also be seen like Underdog.

The 1990's was when it really exploded for these new avenues to happen.

3) Angry parents (A.C.T.)

No doubt there's always going to be angry parents in any era. If it's not violence, it's sugary junk food and marketing things to children that they despised. This is why certain countries like Norway decided to have none of it.

In all fairness, Romper Room was sponsored (and later bought) by Hasbro anyway. It's syndication arm, Claster Television was later responsible for those later shows like G.I. Joe, Transformers, Jem and so-on.

4) FCC regulations (from 1990)

I blame SyndEx, it ruined WGN!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndication_exclusivity

Although I wouldn't doubt that lack of diversity in cartoons may have also helped.

I'm sure of that.

I think a big part of that is that kids were driven to the cable networks by the relative monotony of the major networks, and they never came back. By 2001, let's say, Saturday morning was dead.

Yes, that was monotony that make cable seemed so appealing.

A lot of these cartoons haven't gotten proper home video releases because they are owned by companies who are totally indifferent to them. There's always hope for the future, though.

When it comes to certain companies like NBCUniversal, I'm not holding my breath.

I remember seeing a few of those shows back on TV, but me being a Canadian, I could just simply catch them on YTV (as they aired most of those mentioned in the press release). The others I never even saw until the advent of YouTube.

Saturday morning didn't seem to be a Canadian thing as I noticed stations seemed to like sticking stuff on weekend afternoons for kids instead of mornings in earlier years. Someone I know chronicle how CBC used to ran the Bugs Bunny/Road Runner show at 5PM during the 70's.
http://www.kevinmccorrytv.ca/bbrr.html

To me, Saturday died in the mid-2000s when YTV started shifting their action shows to the afternoons and they dropped a huge chunk of their library (They're how I managed to see shows like Jetsons and Rocky and Bullwinkle on Sundays, but that's another matter for another time). And by the late 2000s where they just became SpongeBob-reliant, they were going down further and further.

Yes, it happened.

Also, because I can't find the main Simpsons thread:

Quite fitting anyway, love how they set this up!

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

When it comes to certain companies like NBCUniversal, I'm not holding my breath.

Hey, they put out Earthworm Jim on DVD, and that's a Universal thing. And thankfully I have that first volume of Woody Woodpecker stuff - only way to see classics like "Abou Ben Boogie" and "The Pied Piper of Basin Street."

Still, if you're like me, you know that the best way to find old cartoons is to collect them on VHS. I don't think I'd have been hipped to Space Goofs if I hadn't found all three tapes.

 

[Trilby]

Hey, they put out Earthworm Jim on DVD, and that's a Universal thing. And thankfully I have that first volume of Woody Woodpecker stuff - only way to see classics like "Abou Ben Boogie" and "The Pied Piper of Basin Street."

Still, if you're like me, you know that the best way to find old cartoons is to collect them on VHS. I don't think I'd have been hipped to Space Goofs if I hadn't found all three tapes.

Yeah, I've did that for years. Sold off quite a bit though, it was always easy getting this stuff in the tape trade circles.

 

[Trilby]

Just got back from seeing "Rock Dog", and honestly, it's not that bad. It's pretty by-the-numbers for what was an indie effort from an American staff bankrolled by Chinese producers but it does have some nifty design work and a few clever moments in the writing I didn't expect (no fart jokes here). One moment that got some chuckles in the theater was when Angus Scattergood is guilted into helping Bodi and the reveal to that only made the gag work so well in set-up. The only gripe I can say is a 'gun on the wall' I expected to be used at a specific point but it didn't happen (perhaps I give these guys too much credit), but it was a minor quibble to the rest of the film, which doesn't go too overboard with its characters but also doesn't leave you feeling like there's still something left to be desired (unless you go look for the original Chinese graphic novel and find out Bodi loses his dad eight pages in to the wolves anyway).

 

[Jewelsmakerguy]

Fun fact about the animation of Rock Dog- It was done by the guys who animated The Book of Life.

 

[Trilby]

Fun fact about the animation of Rock Dog- It was done by the guys who animated The Book of Life.

Yep, it was farmed out to these guys in Dallas.
https://www.reelfx.com/animation

 

[GV 998]

As I'm sure some of you are aware from this thread, I'm a fan of obscure animation. I'd like to share another couple favorites of mine.

Now, most of you are familiar with the now-defunct animation studio Rankin/Bass. You probably know them from the stop-motion Christmas specials you watched as a kid, most famously Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, and, The Year Without a Santa Claus

What some of you might not be aware of is that after the success of Rudolph, but before all of their other Christmas specials, Rankin/Bass tried their hands at full-length stop-motion films for theaters. My favorite is one called Mad Mad Monster Party in 1967

It's notable mainly for featuring Boris Karloff as Baron Frankenstein, as well as its much beloved soundtrack. It's just an all-around fun movie to watch.

But a year before that, Rankin/Bass attempted a film called The Daydreamer in 1966

While this film is far less known from Mad Mad Monster Party, Rankin/Bass pulled out all the stops to get this film recognized by the public, by filling it with stars of the day, such as Hayley Mills, Ray Bolger, Tallulah Bankhead, Burl Ives, Ed Wynn, and even Boris Karloff (again)

The film is basically a composite film of the most famous stories by Hans Christian Andersen. The story is centered around a young boy named Chris, who is essentially the author, as a child, seeking his own "Garden of Paradise" (another reference to an Andersen story) and meets various characters he would one day write about. Oddly enough, Chris is depicted as something of an antagonist, because due to his own selfishness, he abandons EVERY friend he makes (including the Little Mermaid, who formed a pact with the Sea Witch to give her legs just so she could be with Chris), in his own desire to find his garden of paradise.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

As I'm sure some of you are aware from this thread, I'm a fan of obscure animation. I'd like to share another couple favorites of mine.

Now, most of you are familiar with the now-defunct animation studio Rankin/Bass. You probably know them from the stop-motion Christmas specials you watched as a kid, most famously Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, and, The Year Without a Santa Claus

What some of you might not be aware of is that after the success of Rudolph, but before all of their other Christmas specials, Rankin/Bass tried their hands at full-length stop-motion films for theaters. My favorite is one called Mad Mad Monster Party in 1967

It's notable mainly for featuring Boris Karloff as Baron Frankenstein, as well as its much beloved soundtrack. It's just an all-around fun movie to watch.

But a year before that, Rankin/Bass attempted a film called The Daydreamer in 1966

While this film is far less known from Mad Mad Monster Party, Rankin/Bass pulled out all the stops to get this film recognized by the public, by filling it with stars of the day, such as Hayley Mills, Ray Bolger, Tallulah Bankhead, Burl Ives, Ed Wynn, and even Boris Karloff (again)

The film is basically a composite film of the most famous stories by Hans Christian Andersen. The story is centered around a young boy named Chris, who is essentially the author, as a child, seeking his own "Garden of Paradise" (another reference to an Andersen story) and meets various characters he would one day write about. Oddly enough, Chris is depicted as something of an antagonist, because due to his own selfishness, he abandons EVERY friend he makes (including the Little Mermaid, who formed a pact with the Sea Witch to give her legs just so she could be with Chris), in his own desire to find his garden of paradise.

Great, great films. I own them both on VHS.

Funnily enough, I recently bought a VHS copy of Rankin-Bass's last special, The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus.

 

[GV 998]

Great, great films. I own them both on VHS.

Funnily enough, I recently bought a VHS copy of Rankin-Bass's last special, The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus.

That's an interesting one. It's like combining Lord of The Rings with Santa Claus. It wasn't very well-received, but I liked it. Very epic. I'm not sure why people didn't like it. Perhaps it was too pagan for their tastes.

It is a bit odd to think of Santa's mother as a beautiful fairy that never ages (well, adoptive mother. He considers her his mother, close enough)
https://sneed-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2d/aa/5f/2daa5f5a3bdafd85cb1ac245c768a71d.jpg

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

That's an interesting one. It's like combining Lord of The Rings with Santa Claus. It wasn't very well-received, but I liked it. Very epic. I'm not sure why people didn't like it. Perhaps it was too pagan for their tastes.

It is a bit odd to think of Santa's mother as a beautiful fairy that never ages (well, adoptive mother. He considers her his mother, close enough)
https://sneed-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/2d/aa/5f/2daa5f5a3bdafd85cb1ac245c768a71d.jpg

It was based off the book by L. Frank Baum, and is pretty faithful to it - truncated to fit an hour, but still faithful. Baum felt no need to adhere completely to the traditional Santa Claus myth in his book, so it transferred over to Rankin-Bass's special.

So what you have is something more in the vein of The Hobbit, The Last Unicorn or The Flight of Dragons than any of Rankin-Bass's other Christmas specials.

If it wasn't well-received, well, I think that's because Baum's works, presented as he intended them, are probably a little too weird for most people's tastes. Remember that Return to Oz came out that same year, had more of a Baum feel to it than the famous MGM film, and was a bomb.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

I discovered a Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs TV series exists and has been airing on Cartoon Network for about a little while now.

Say what you will about the movies, but what I saw of the cartoon's terrible. For one thing, it's a retcon--course they tried to "remedy" this by saying Flint (who's in high school btw) will promise to build some kind of memory eraser if Sam were to leave Swallow Falls because I don't fucking know. The other is the art-style. Compare and contrast (mostly with Flint):

The jokes also sucked. Most of the jokes in the movies tended to be visual, though they had a sense of timing and they didn't overuse them (too much, this kinda hurt the sequel). Because of the change in art-style, it doesn't even work visually, and any running gags they may have implemented in every episode run their course too soon. It's also full of cringe, the episode "Baby Brent Sitter" I felt was too much to take in in that department--if you don't remember who the character Brent is, he's the 'tard in the chicken suit above and is Swallow Fall's Baby Brent's Sardines mascot. (In terms of cringe overall, though, Breadwinners is still worse in its obnoxiousness, and the Powerpuff Girls reboot still is hard to watch, personally. The Cloudy cartoon was something I was more-or-less just baffled with throughout.)

I don't know why this exists. I had no idea this was even considered. It may have been a change of pace from seeing Teen Titans Go!, but this only brought out one question I just have to ask:

Why?

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

I discovered a Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs TV series exists and has been airing on Cartoon Network for about a little while now.

Say what you will about the movies, but what I saw of the cartoon's terrible. For one thing, it's a retcon--course they tried to "remedy" this by saying Flint (who's in high school btw) will promise to build some kind of memory eraser if Sam were to leave Swallow Falls because I don't fucking know. The other is the art-style. Compare and contrast (mostly with Flint):

The jokes also sucked. Most of the jokes in the movies tended to be visual, though they had a sense of timing and they didn't overuse them (too much, this kinda hurt the sequel). Because of the change in art-style, it doesn't even work visually, and any running gags they may have implemented in every episode run their course too soon. It's also full of cringe, the episode "Baby Brent Sitter" I felt was too much to take in in that department--if you don't remember who the character Brent is, he's the 'tard in the chicken suit above and is Swallow Fall's Baby Brent's Sardines mascot. (In terms of cringe overall, though, Breadwinners is still worse in its obnoxiousness, and the Powerpuff Girls reboot still is hard to watch, personally. The Cloudy cartoon was something I was more-or-less just baffled with throughout.)

I don't know why this exists. I had no idea this was even considered. It may have been a change of pace from seeing Teen Titans Go!, but this only brought out one question I just have to ask:

Why?

There was no movie version of Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs. There was only a charming little picture book I liked when I was younger.

This is my reality and I prefer it not to be disturbed.

 

[Quijibo69]

The first Cloudy movie was cute after that it got really stupid.

 

[Trilby]

There was no movie version of Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs. There was only a charming little picture book I liked when I was younger.

This is my reality and I prefer it not to be disturbed.

I'm sure there's some stories that didn't need to be up on the big screen.

The first Cloudy movie was cute after that it got really stupid.

Sony got TOO greedy.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

I'm sure there's some stories that didn't need to be up on the big screen.

They just should not make picture books into movies. Nine times out of ten they suck.

 

[Jewelsmakerguy]

I'm sure there's some stories that didn't need to be up on the big screen.


Sony got TOO greedy.

Spoiler: And look where that led them...

 

[ShittyRecolor]

So, I just watched the first two episodes of Samurai Jack, and I've got to say, as someone who used to watch the original show every now and then and though it was okay... so far I really like this new season. It just seems polished and improved without losing the passion and raw magic of the original. The stylized aesthetic works better than ever, the darker, more brooding tone isn't on the expense of some well placed humor and camp, and even without the (extremely effective) narration of Jack's haunting guilt the great fight coreigraphy always tells something about the fighters and where they stand. Sure, the plot is basic, but the show uses its simplicity so well to play up its strong points that you never feel bored or looking for complexity. The final pursuit\fight scene with Jack and the female assassins was breath taking.

Overall, this new season is very promising so far, and hope it can keep up its steam throughout its run. As far as style-over-substance shows go, it's pretty wonderful. Oh, and Aku's as entertaining as ever.