- Joined
- Dec 17, 2019
Not in this thread, which is why you should take my remark more as a helpful bit of advice, than a jab. There are people on this thread who know more than I could ever possibly know about Mandalorians, Imperial kill counts, and galactic proto-lore like the Celestials. That's why I hesitate to make bold and generalized statements about any of them.
I can't speak for the armies of fanboy consoomers that comprise in the rest of the fandom, but a lot of people here have cut their teeth on the lore, and will snipe you with a corrective High-Caliber Spergpost if you aren't careful. Hence why I tread lightly, and you should too.
If you think my taste in EU is shocking, wait till you hear my uncontrolled opinions on the Prequels and Special Editions. I never claimed to be orthodox in my SW taste.
I mean, I wrote an entire gush post over Attack of the Clones on this very thread. I imagine that launched plenty of eyebrows into orbit around here.
No, it's your boisterous claim that the EU should have ended with those stories that makes me look at you like a greasy freeway hobo, with both horror and fascination.
That kind of claim made me think that, perhaps, you had arrived to that conclusion because you had read everything Post-Endor, and thus had a detailed knowledge and strong argument rooted in experience with those works...only for it to turn out that you don't remember/haven't read any of the material past Hand of Thrawn. Again, it would be like if I waltzed into the Comic thread and said that Superman comics should've ended with the Silver Age, only to reveal I hadn't read anything past that point, and then pretend to be surprised when I get dogpiled by ComicFags who actually know what they're talking about.
Big claims come with the expectation of strong evidence, and yours wasn't very strong. I don't think that's an unreasonable assessment on my part.
Sure. One man's trash is another man's treasure. I've even said as much on my coverage posts on LOTF and FOTJ...how upset can I really be with people badmouthing those stories, when I got what I wanted?
And those series gave me what I wanted in spades. I'm happy the Bantam stuff gives you similar happiness.
We can definitely agree on that. In fact, discounting garbage like TCW or inoffensive but extremely questionable fanwank like Force Unleashed is something I already do, so "picking and choosing" is a sentiment I already wholly embrace.
Thanks for being a good sport. It's always a pleasure engaging in a little EU Spergery--at least it gives me something interesting to talk about, unlike Disney's latest garbage.
Good luck. It's a steep read, one that's definitely better than the sum of its parts (those first few books especially, which even as a mouth-breathing NJO Fanatic I can admit vary in quality). But the highlights are very much worth it.
Better also read some of these on a sunny day where you're in an impenetrably good mood--because whole swaths of NJO are suicide-inducingly bleak.
Well, in fairness, that wasn't really NJO's task...that was what Young Jedi Knights was written to do. The core characters had their personalities and quirks established there, which is why NJO didn't spend time establishing them again. Especially not for the mainstream readerbase that the core hardcover entries were aimed at, who, let's face it were largely there for the OT Heroes...something Del Rey was very aware of, and worked to balance granting narrative real estate to throughout the series (sometimes, I would argue, in the OT Heroes' favor and to the Younger Heroes' detriment).
The real problem was that, at the start, NJO was even going to be something of a soft reboot. RA Salvatore apparently pitched Vector Prime as tying as little as possible to previous books, to act as a fresh start for newcomers to the SW Reading Market back in 1999. This meant that whole characters were "re-introduced" with almost entirely new personalities at the series' start. Jacen was basically a new character, and the early novels payed little to no lip service to Young Jedi Knights at all.
It was only when James Luceno reversed Salvatore's "soft reboot" approach (in the wake of widespread backlash from Bantam Fans) that elements started to trickle back in, which is where authors like Greg Keyes and Aaron Allston began bringing stuff back from YJK and even Junior Jedi Knights (Keyes' Edge of Victory springs to mind), that the Solo Kids and their fellow students' personalities started to come back.
To be honest, the guy who was really pushing to bring back YJK Elements back in full was Troy Denning. He made something of a series reunion in Star By Star, and even tried to restore a bigger role for Zekk--a character other authors had largely forgotten about up till that point. Of course, this love for YJK would lead to crappy things like Denning trying to re-instate Zekk as Jaina's love interest in Dark Nest, and good things like using it as an emotional bedrock for much of LOTF, and Invincible in particular.
But yeah, on the whole? NJO wasn't written to "introduce" the Solo Kids, or even to properly flesh them out, until about five books into the series....a cumbersome aspect of NJO that plagues it to this day, and is somewhat remedied by the focus they get in later books.
Well, if Hayden Blackman's failed Episode VII: Shadows of the Sith game pitch is any indication, Denning wasn't the only one onboard with idea of turning Jacen dark. I would also remind you that doing it in the novels wasn't some unrestrained crack decision Denning arrived to all by himself--his fellow authors were all onboard, and contributed to Jacen's Dark Side turn in their own way (with Traviss arguably doing it the best).
And anyway, I would also posit that turning Jacen to the Dark Side is really what elevated the character for me, and kept him from becoming boring. Becoming One with the Force at the end of Unifying Force, while satisfying for his arc, presented a WEALTH of potential problems for future stories...and I'm happy they opted to have it be a one-time fluke he spends the rest of his life trying to understand, and even funneling his misguided savior complex, rather than that be his stakes-breaking Gray Jedi Superpower. It's what kept him from turning into the EU's version of Rey.
I'll freely agree about one thing, though: Jacen is one annoying putz in the first half of NJO. His hipstertastic pacifism angle is eye-rolling to the point that, like many people, I found him absolutely insufferable till about Balance Point.
Up till then, he comes off as Shinji Ikari and Marlena Peacecraft combined, which is a nightmare incarnate.
I can't say I agree. He's a true good guy in every NJO book from Star By Star onward. He isn't celebrated or lauded like his brother because 1) He's proclaimed dead for almost a fourth of the series, and 2) Other people aren't privy to the secret knowledge bestowed upon him by Vergere. Even Luke is extremely skeptical of what Jacen's been taught, and the full scope of what he's capable of isn't shown to the world in
Speaking long-term, I was never interested in Jacen being a permanent hero...because Star Wars already has lots of those. I wasn't even remotely enticed by the idea of him being some "universally wise" Grey Jedi OC like so many other readers wanted, because that's fucking boring. With the NJO authors making him the one to solve an enigma like the Vong that even Luke couldn't solve, what's to stop Jacen from being the Gary Stu insta-solution for every story arc going forward? Why not just make him Grandmaster at that point? So instead, Denning, Allston, Traviss and Del Rey's Editorial make him not the hero of the story...but the hero of his own misguided story. A philosopher who stops asking questions because he thinks he knows all the answer, a messiah of his own mind burdened by glorious purpose, striving to sacrifice everything for the sake of his ideals, even himself. It's why I compare his downfall in LOTF to someone like Maximilien Robespierre, and other intelligentisa-turned-despots, and find Jacen's growth so fascinating; the way he fell, making all the mistakes he was convinced he was avoiding, blinded by the luster of the future he thought he was crafting for his daughter...walking every step of that delusion with him was spellbinding, much more than just another bland jaunt into heroism would've been. And unlike tragic heroes like Vader, Jacen clings to his convictions to his last breath, refusing to be redeemed...and ends up being the catalyst for FOTJ's events, to a degree where he's almost vindicated for even his worst decision. Jacen being the unexpected hero in NJO made me interested in him, but Jacen going dark and refusing to walk other paths for the sake of what he believed in, no matter how misguided or delusional? That made him my favorite Star Wars character.
I'm probably the only person on planet Earth who feels that way, but let me tell you, it's a great feeling to have the authors constantly vindicate your favorite character's arc and choices in stories like Fate of the Jedi, and presumably Sword of the Jedi (had it ever seen the light of day).
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