Argue about the capabilities and techs of Jet fighters, and how everyone is everyone else's sock account

[RodgerDodger]

The J20 has the same diverterless intake the F35 has, they straight up copied it see

The F-35 has Y shaped ducting. The two front ducts make an S turn to come together to the single centerline engine. The J-20 ducts each go in a straight line to one of the 2 engines. \/

 

[The Ghost of Kviv]

But lockheed's lobby had more money than northrop's.

That, and the top brass in the Pentagon were old Korea veterans, and they still thought dogfighting was as important as BVR. The F23 (IIRC) has worse numbers in dogfighting, such as turn radius, climb rate. But for it's fans (like me) it looks like it's shape will make a comeback in the future with the leaked pictures from Nevada

Spoiler: It's mounted upsdie down

 

[cybertoaster]

The F-35 has Y shaped ducting. The two front ducts make an S turn to come together to the single centerline engine. The J-20 ducts each go in a straight line to one of the 2 engines. \/

Why are you negraters booing? He's right.

F-35:
View attachment 5067790
J-20 (cutaway view not available, but can be inferred from inlet, engine, and weapons bay position):
View attachment 5067794

The diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) has nothing to do with a Y-duct, and the stealth comes from designing the intake so that radar signals are trapped inside instead of reflected back, same as every stealth surface is designed to deflect radar or absorb it with RAM material.

See those bumps in the inlets of the J20 and the F35? thats the DSI, we invented it and the chicoms stole it, that's all.

The F35 rival the X32 had a DSI but no Y-duct, it was still stealth af.

That, and the top brass in the Pentagon were old Korea veterans, and they still thought dogfighting was as important as BVR. The F23 (IIRC) has worse numbers in dogfighting, such as turn radius, climb rate. But for it's fans (like me) it looks like it's shape will make a comeback in the future with the leaked pictures from Nevada

Spoiler: It's mounted upsdie down

View attachment 5067944

F for the redneck from whose butt that piece of alien tech was removed from.

Anyway, got more on that? its a wingman drone?

 

[Rubick]

Yeah, those screw are on the fucking f-22 also.

These Images Of An F-22 Raptor's Crumbling Radar Absorbent Skin Are Fascinating

The photos are a reminder of just how much work goes into keeping the F-22's skin ready for combat and the amazing science behind its stealthy design.

www.thedrive.com

Except they are covered in paint normally. While who knows at what point that Su-57 pic was taken.

 

[Rei is Shit.]

thats the DSI, we invented it and the chicoms stole it, that's all.

Literally invented by an Italian. The same guy who the US 'stole' from for the F-105s intakes.

Yeah, those screw are on the fucking f-22 also.

These Images Of An F-22 Raptor's Crumbling Radar Absorbent Skin Are Fascinating

The photos are a reminder of just how much work goes into keeping the F-22's skin ready for combat and the amazing science behind its stealthy design.

www.thedrive.com

Except they are covered in paint normally. While who knows at what point that Su-57 pic was taken.

Yeah but the F-22 is also using these totally not phillips screws that some dude at Lockheed(tm) invented. These offer a ~5% lower chance of stripping if over-torqued, and this justifies the 300% higher costs and special Lockheed(tm) tools.

 

[Male Idiot]

The diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) has nothing to do with a Y-duct, and the stealth comes from designing the intake so that radar signals are trapped inside instead of reflected back, same as every stealth surface is designed to deflect radar or absorb it with RAM material.

See those bumps in the inlets of the J20 and the F35? thats the DSI, we invented it and the chicoms stole it, that's all.

The F35 rival the X32 had a DSI but no Y-duct, it was still stealth af.
View attachment 5068069

F for the redneck from whose butt that piece of alien tech was removed from.

Anyway, got more on that? its a wingman drone?

Hey, that little chonker is cute.

 

[Susanna]

Hey, that little chonker is cute.

He's a happy boy.

 

[cybertoaster]

Yeah, those screw are on the fucking f-22 also.

These Images Of An F-22 Raptor's Crumbling Radar Absorbent Skin Are Fascinating

The photos are a reminder of just how much work goes into keeping the F-22's skin ready for combat and the amazing science behind its stealthy design.

www.thedrive.com

Except they are covered in paint normally. While who knows at what point that Su-57 pic was taken.

Its all from official russian state media, one would assume they would use their best plane and not one with manufacturing defects, but these are the same guys who showed video of the armata's touchscreens and it was just a placeholder.

All we have is the picture. Since it's been effectively memory-holed, I assume it's a real test frame.

Mysterious Stealthy Shape That Resembles Future Fighter Concepts Spotted At Radar Test Range (Updated)

The apparent low-observable aircraft test shape appeared in broad daylight at Lockheed Martin’s Helendale radar cross-section measurement range.

www.thedrive.com

So a radar test model, so at least the airframe its real.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Literally invented by an Italian. The same guy who the US 'stole' from for the F-105s intakes.

Yeah but the F-22 is also using these totally not phillips screws that some dude at Lockheed(tm) invented. These offer a ~5% lower chance of stripping if over-torqued, and this justifies the 300% higher costs and special Lockheed(tm) tools.
View attachment 5068174

Tbf you can't really weld a supersonic aircraft. Puts too much thermal stress on the metal, changes things like hardness. Really can only weld parts that wont get hot. So it's either rivets or screws. The cost is ridiculous but I see why they want it

 

[Rei is Shit.]

Tbf you can't really weld a supersonic aircraft. Puts too much thermal stress on the metal, changes things like hardness. Really can only weld parts that wont get hot. So it's either rivets or screws. The cost is ridiculous but I see why they want it

Its because modern combat aircraft are so densly packed that they are frames covered in access panels. That means screws, dzus or latches have to be used as fasteners. If the groundcrew has electric screwdrivers then screws are the pragmatic (ie cheapest) option.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Its because modern combat aircraft are so densly packed that they are frames covered in access panels. That means screws, dzus or latches have to be used as fasteners. If the groundcrew has electric screwdrivers then screws are the pragmatic (ie cheapest) option.

That is another reason. Welding is good for say a car, since you can get to most of it through hatches. Not so on aircraft. The metal has to expand, which is why screws are good, it only holds it in place while the plates heat up and stretch out.

 

[Rei is Shit.]

That is another reason. Welding is good for say a car, since you can get to most of it through hatches. Not so on aircraft. The metal has to expand, which is why screws are good, it only holds it in place while the plates heat up and stretch out.

Stir friction and electric arc welding are widely used in aerospace, on everything from rockets to fighters to airbuses. Metal expansion is an issue if dissimilar metals with different thermal coefficients are used - but that is also just as much of a problem when screws or rivets are used with dissimilar metals. Its also an issue that can be turned into a non-issue if the designer correctly accounts for it. Which is what is done every time aluminum is mixed with titanium or steel on aircraft/rockets.

The big "problem" with welding is the warpage that occurs during the welding process. This is why forms of welding that minimized warpage, like stir friction, are used and stuff like tack welding is done in bush planes where a bit of warpage doesn't matter.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Stir friction and electric arc welding are widely used in aerospace, on everything from rockets to fighters to airbuses. Metal expansion is an issue if dissimilar metals with different thermal coefficients are used - but that is also just as much of a problem when screws or rivets are used with dissimilar metals. Its also an issue that can be turned into a non-issue if the designer correctly accounts for it. Which is what is done every time aluminum is mixed with titanium or steel on aircraft/rockets.

The big "problem" with welding is the warpage that occurs during the welding process. This is why forms of welding that minimized warpage, like stir friction, are used and stuff like tack welding is done in bush planes where a bit of warpage doesn't matter.

You just told me, a welder, what I know. It is used yes. You aren't welding the whole thing, it's too rigid, and as you pointed out, it warps. That's why you have to be extremely good at TIG to even touch a plane. A plane has to flex because at Mach 2, the thing is expanding. Welding is not suited to that in large scale, hense screws

 

[tulskij_tochnyj]

Tbf you can't really weld a supersonic aircraft. Puts too much thermal stress on the metal, changes things like hardness. Really can only weld parts that wont get hot. So it's either rivets or screws. The cost is ridiculous but I see why they want it

At least steel fuselage can be welded, MiG-25/31 are flying proofs.

 

[draggs]

tfw when China invasion of Taiwan fails because they used 3 inch squarehead screws instead of 3 inch roundheads

 

[Betonhaus]

tfw when China invasion of Taiwan fails because they used 3 inch squarehead screws instead of 3 inch roundheads

As long as they aren't using 75mm screws when they should be using 3 inch screws..

 

[WelperHelper99]

At least steel fuselage can be welded, MiG-25/31 are flying proofs.

It depends on where, what processes, and how much the machine is helping. Part of the problem is with human error. You need good speed and a steady hand. Not everyone is built for that, especially stainless. I'd be quite interested to see how they did it honestly, it's quite a feat.

 

[Betonhaus]

It depends on where, what processes, and how much the machine is helping. Part of the problem is with human error. You need good speed and a steady hand. Not everyone is built for that, especially stainless. I'd be quite interested to see how they did it honestly, it's quite a feat.

they may not be stainless. and Russia probably has massive kilns where they can stick the entire welded fuselage in to heat treat it all at once, then do a final machining pass to put in high precision mount points for panels and such.

 

[WelperHelper99]

they may not be stainless. and Russia probably has massive kilns where they can stick the entire welded fuselage in to heat treat it all at once, then do a final machining pass to put in high precision mount points for panels and such.

Just by looking at a mig 31, it looks like stainless, I've worked with it enough. You want to be careful with heat and stainless, while it has a high tolerance, you can cook the chromium out by welding it or similar such temperatures, which is the secret sauce to stainless. You have to be good at TIG to do stainless is what I'm saying. Doing that much on a aircraft without machines doing it would be mental.

 

[Betonhaus]

Just by looking at a mig 31, it looks like stainless, I've worked with it enough. You want to be careful with heat and stainless, while it has a high tolerance, you can cook the chromium out by welding it or similar such temperatures, which is the secret sauce to stainless. You have to be good at TIG to do stainless is what I'm saying. Doing that much on a aircraft without machines doing it would be mental.

Mikoyan MiG-31 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The wings and airframe of the MiG-31 are stronger than those of the MiG-25, permitting supersonic flight at low altitudes. Like the MiG-25, its flight surfaces are built primarily of nickel-steel alloy, enabling the aircraft to tolerate kinetic heating at airspeeds approaching Mach 3. The MiG-31 airframe comprises 49% arc-welded nickel steel, 33% light metal alloy, 16% titanium and 2% composites.[25] Its D30-F6 jet engines, each rated at 152 kN thrust, allow a maximum speed of Mach 1.23 at low altitude. High-altitude speed is temperature-redlined to Mach 2.83 – the thrust-to-drag ratio is sufficient for speeds in excess of Mach 3, but such speeds pose unacceptable hazards to engine and airframe life in routine use.[6]

I guess nickel steel is easier to weld then chromium-based stainless?