Argue about the capabilities and techs of Jet fighters, and how everyone is everyone else's sock account


I guess nickel steel is easier to weld then chromium-based stainless?
Now that makes sense. Nickel would drastically aid in heat resistance and strength, allowing for less carbon steel to be used. To answer your question, yes. Now stainless is used in aircraft, but not usually the whole thing. Nickel would allow for less skilled workers, such as in Russia, with worse equipment, to still get the job done
 
Nickel would allow for less skilled workers, such as in Russia, with worse equipment, to still get the job done
I imagine that designing your weapons of war to be easily made by less skilled workers may pay dividends. American weaponry is very high tech, but that also means fiddly little parts that are difficult to make. I worked for a machine shop where they had to make these 2" long Inconel tubes that were maybe 3/4" diameter and had a 1/2" bore, and at the bottom of that bore was a complicated shape that required special tools to turn, and they had to be so perfect with a perfect surface finish that each piece required cmm testing and visual inspection with a microscope, and still had about a 40% scrap rate. But if they weren't perfect they would burst under the hydraulic pressure they were expected to handle. Our shop was the only one in the world that would even touch them and we absolutely hated them. I don't recall exactly what they were for, but they constitute a very expensive point of failure for whatever they were for.
 
I imagine that designing your weapons of war to be easily made by less skilled workers may pay dividends. American weaponry is very high tech, but that also means fiddly little parts that are difficult to make. I worked for a machine shop where they had to make these 2" long Inconel tubes that were maybe 3/4" diameter and had a 1/2" bore, and at the bottom of that bore was a complicated shape that required special tools to turn, and they had to be so perfect with a perfect surface finish that each piece required cmm testing and visual inspection with a microscope, and still had about a 40% scrap rate. But if they weren't perfect they would burst under the hydraulic pressure they were expected to handle. Our shop was the only one in the world that would even touch them and we absolutely hated them. I don't recall exactly what they were for, but they constitute a very expensive point of failure for whatever they were for.
It really depends on what you're going for. The mig 31 is to go high and go fast. It can take some extra weight from heavier alloys. The F-15 does all of that and dogfights with a 2:1 thrust ratio. It needs to be light. Hense Russia has a lot of specialized planes while the US is more standardized; you get what you pay for. China is somewhere in the middle by most appearances
 
A plane has to flex because at Mach 2, the thing is expanding. Welding is not suited to that in large scale, hense screws
Strain doesn't magically disappear if you use screws instead of welding. For a given loading it is the exact same regardless of fastening method.

And again the issue of thermal expansion is if metals of different types are used, because different metals expand at different rates.

The Mig-25/31 used lots of stainless because it was designed for flight at mach 3+. Aluminum alloys, even high temp ones, can't handle that. The only options that were practical at the time was steel or titanium and given the difficulties of machining titanium the soviets choose to use it only where needed.. The F-15 is thermally limited to <2.5.
 
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Literally invented by an Italian. The same guy who the US 'stole' from for the F-105s intakes.
Antonio Ferri got the initial idea, we "just" did literally everything else, all the billions invested into actually making it work.

Hey here is an idea, how about we cure cancer? from now on whenever someone cures cancer remember to tell them that cybertoaster invented the idea of curing cancer.
@cybertoaster

The United States and Japan will go to war if China attacks Taiwan. Everybody understands that, especially the Chinese
We are already building semiconductor plants here so we wont have to.
That's funny, I seem to recall China having some rather large incidents involving over-valued, un-occupied real estate, as well as bank runs fairly recently...
Yeah, and they didn't shit the bed like we did in 2008 which is exactly my point: most of their economy isn't a bunch of made up numbers which is how they managed to compensate for complete fuckups like evergrande.

They are still indebted to the gills but again look at that trade map I posted before and tell me they wont be able to pay it back.
 
Antonio Ferri got the initial idea, we "just" did literally everything else, all the billions invested into actually making it work.
The Germans spent millions of reichsmarks developing the swept wing then the USA literally stole all the research.

The Germans and Br*tish spent millions developing the jet engine then the USA stole it.

The Br*tish spent millions developing radar and then the USA literally copied it.

A Russian figured out all the math behind RCS modelling then the USA literally copied it.

ect, ect, ect
 
Strain doesn't magically disappear if you use screws instead of welding. For a given loading it is the exact same regardless of fastening method.

And again the issue of thermal expansion is if metals of different types are used, because different metals expand at different rates.

The Mig-25/31 used lots of stainless because it was designed for flight at mach 3+. Aluminum alloys, even high temp ones, can't handle that. The only options that were practical at the time was steel or titanium and given the difficulties of machining titanium the soviets choose to use it only where needed.. The F-15 is thermally limited to <2.5.
The official speed for the F-15 is Mach 2.5+. It goes faster, and uses more than aluminum. Different areas heat at different rates. And judging by what's listed for the percentage of materials, I fully believe that instead of making the entire plane out of stainless or titanium, they placed the heat resistant material where needed to reduce weight. That's called smart design. Further supporting my theroy is that they keep fitting bigger engines, just look at the EX and Saudi variant. It can catch a Foxbat, of that I have little doubt.
F-15EX_Eagle_II.jpg
Finally the F-15 EX pictured is rumored to go Mach 3. They did extensive modifications, it's why they're buying more when we're working on 6th gen jets. It could undoubtedly eat a Mig 31 for breakfast, not that a regular F-15 couldn't, as well as China's MASSIVE fleet of SU-27 and knockoff variants.
 
The only F-15 that has gone Mach 2.5 plus. Was the streak eagle. A F-15A, lightened and modified for altitude record setting attempts.
I'm willing to believe that there's a fun button especially with the upgraded engines, even if it can't keep it up for long. In any case, it was built to kill the MIG 25, and still holds the record for most successful jet in terms of kill loss ratio.
 
The official speed for the F-15 is Mach 2.5+. It goes faster, and uses more than aluminum. Different areas heat at different rates. And judging by what's listed for the percentage of materials, I fully believe that instead of making the entire plane out of stainless or titanium, they placed the heat resistant material where needed to reduce weight. That's called smart design. Further supporting my theroy is that they keep fitting bigger engines, just look at the EX and Saudi variant. It can catch a Foxbat, of that I have little doubt.
View attachment 5072773
Finally the F-15 EX pictured is rumored to go Mach 3. They did extensive modifications, it's why they're buying more when we're working on 6th gen jets. It could undoubtedly eat a Mig 31 for breakfast, not that a regular F-15 couldn't, as well as China's MASSIVE fleet of SU-27 and knockoff variants.
This is what non-stop military propaganda does to people.

"they placed the heat resistant material where needed to reduce weight. That's called smart design."

The Soviets used titanium on the leading edges of the Mig-25/31. The Europeans used special high temp Al alloys and steel on the LE of the Concorde. What you call "smart design" is actually textbook design every first year aero eng student learns.
 
This is what non-stop military propaganda does to people.

"they placed the heat resistant material where needed to reduce weight. That's called smart design."

The Soviets used titanium on the leading edges of the Mig-25/31. The Europeans used special high temp Al alloys and steel on the LE of the Concorde. What you call "smart design" is actually textbook design every first year aero eng student learns.
Yes... and? I'm speaking from my manufacturing background that going beyond Mach 2.5 is fully possible, it's not a pure aluminum jet.
 
Planes hitting Mach 2,5 isn't as a big deal as you make it out. Even the F-4 could be pushed to do Mach 2,5 clean by their pilots it was said. B-52 Hustlers were capable going beyond their officially Mach number. Mach 2,2-2,3 wasn't a problem. Su-27's and MiG-29 are limited by their cockpit sealing mostly rather then the airframe or the engines. Same probably for the F-16.


MiG-23ML/MLA model could hit Mach 2,7 surprisingly (beyond that the airframe started to melt) and were only limited to Mach 2,3 due to stability problems beyond that speed.. And of course airframe life expectancy. That of course didn't stop especially Bulgarian pilots taking them beyond their "restricted" Mach speed. Later MLD models couldn't hit mach 2,7 due to aerodynamics. (because of the added vortax generators.)

Su-15 is another plane that flew beyond it's restricted speed.
 
Planes hitting Mach 2,5 isn't as a big deal as you make it out. Even the F-4 could be pushed to do Mach 2,5 clean by their pilots. B-52 Hustlers where capable going beyond their officially Mach number. Mach 2,2-2,3 wasn't a problem. Su-27's and MiG-29 are limited by their cockpit sealing mostly rather then the airframe or the engines.


MiG-23ML/MLA model could hit Mach 2,7 surprisingly (beyond that the airframe started to melt) and were only limited to Mach 2,3 due to stability problems beyond that speed.. And of course airframe life expectancy. That of course didn't stop especially Bulgarian pilots taking them beyond their "restricted" Mach speed. Later MLD models couldn't hit mach 2,7 due to aerodynamics. (because of the added vortax generators.)
That's what I'm kind of saying. Despite being officially listed as Mach 2.5, like those examples you put out, I could easily see it going beyond that judging by history. Probably not recommended, but I imagine it's like the old War Emergency Power; if you need it you have it.

What's arguably more important is the modern missiles it carries. The EX can carry 22 AMRAMM missiles, which against a Chinese swarm at range, assuming the US gets involved, or even the upgrades the Japanese F-15's are getting get into a Taiwan conflict, I could see swarms of these fast missile trucks taking potshots at their bomber fleet before it hits the main Taiwanese island. And taking out those bombers will take a shit ton of ordnance with them, possibly nukes if those get pulled out, likely against Taiwan's naval forces, which while a mix of old and new, are sturdy and getting upgraded as we speak
 
Yes... and? I'm speaking from my manufacturing background that going beyond Mach 2.5 is fully possible, it's not a pure aluminum jet.
I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. No aircraft with aluminum as a significant part of its structure is hitting Mach 3 without a ton of fancy thermal management.
alalloy1-1977991704.png
Notice that Al goes to shit pretty fast above 100C
temperature-1876717630.gif
Concorde sits right under 100C, besides the special LE and nose.
th-2301065451.jpeg
500F = ~260C. The whole surface of the Sr-71 was at a temp where Al is well under half strength.

Even if the F-15 was pure titanium I doubt it could hit Mach 3+ because its inlets will likely be chocked/unstarted before then.
 
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I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. No aircraft with aluminum as a significant part of its structure is hitting Mach 3 without a ton of fancy thermal management.
View attachment 5073133
Notice that Al goes to shit pretty fast above 100C
View attachment 5073135
Concorde sits right under 100C, besides the special LE and nose.
View attachment 5073137
500F = ~260C. The whole surface of the Sr-71 was at a temp where Al is well under half strength.

Even if the F-15 was pure titanium I doubt it could hit Mach 3+ because its inlets will likely be chocked/unstarted before then.
are those calculations assuming that the wings will immediately liquify the moment the plane exceeds the speed limit, or does it require sustained loads and thermal accumulation?
 
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I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. No aircraft with aluminum as a significant part of its structure is hitting Mach 3 without a ton of fancy thermal management.
View attachment 5073133
Notice that Al goes to shit pretty fast above 100C
View attachment 5073135
Concorde sits right under 100C, besides the special LE and nose.
View attachment 5073137
500F = ~260C. The whole surface of the Sr-71 was at a temp where Al is well under half strength.

Even if the F-15 was pure titanium I doubt it could hit Mach 3+ because its inlets will likely be chocked/unstarted before then.
The fact is it was built to catch up with the Foxbat. Normal speed is Mach 2.8. The stated goal of the F-15 program was 2.7. Aluminum doesn't liquefy instantly my guy. For short periods, as in catching up to a MIG 25, it could probably pull it off. The SR-71 was designed for SUSTAINED Mach 3 operations
 
The fact is it was built to catch up with the Foxbat. Normal speed is Mach 2.8. The stated goal of the F-15 program was 2.7. Aluminum doesn't liquefy instantly my guy. For short periods, as in catching up to a MIG 25, it could probably pull it off. The SR-71 was designed for SUSTAINED Mach 3 operations
Where did I say anything about Aluminum "liquefying"? I posted a graph showing that the compressive strength of aluminum drops as temperature increases. You understand what that means, right? The properties of a metal are tied to temperature, something a welder should understand.

The fastest an F-15 has gone is a tad over Mach 2.5. Drag goes up by the square of speed so going from Mach 2.5 to 3 is a ~43% increase in drag which requires a 43% increase in thrust. But the big issue is thermals and intake performance, which are what tend to limit most fighter aircraft today.

That stated goal of 2.7 was dropped early in the program, about the same time they dropped the requirement for 1:1 thrust to weight ratio and the secondary ground attack role. Requirements change during programs and the initial FXX spec was too ambitious for the time. If you think initial specs are reflective of final aircraft performance, then the F-111 must be the bestest airplane ever.
 
The fact is it was built to catch up with the Foxbat. Normal speed is Mach 2.8. The stated goal of the F-15 program was 2.7. Aluminum doesn't liquefy instantly my guy. For short periods, as in catching up to a MIG 25, it could probably pull it off. The SR-71 was designed for SUSTAINED Mach 3 operations
It might be propaganda, but I've heard that the F-15 has only once faced a MiG-25. They saw each other, the F-15 turned to chase, the MiG turned to evade, opened the throttle to full, and left the F-15 in the dust. Those engines are no joke.
 
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Where did I say anything about Aluminum "liquefying"? I posted a graph showing that the compressive strength of aluminum drops as temperature increases. You understand what that means, right? The properties of a metal are tied to temperature, something a welder should understand.

The fastest an F-15 has gone is a tad over Mach 2.5. Drag goes up by the square of speed so going from Mach 2.5 to 3 is a ~43% increase in drag which requires a 43% increase in thrust. But the big issue is thermals and intake performance, which are what tend to limit most fighter aircraft today.

That stated goal of 2.7 was dropped early in the program, about the same time they dropped the requirement for 1:1 thrust to weight ratio and the secondary ground attack role. Requirements change during programs and the initial FXX spec was too ambitious for the time. If you think initial specs are reflective of final aircraft performance, then the F-111 must be the bestest airplane ever.
No shit it's strength is going to decrease. It's aluminum. I'm saying that for a short time it can open up past 2.5. And until they drop the + behind the 2.5, I am going to assume it can hit 2.7 for at least some period of time. It certainly has enough thrust with modern engines to do it. Them "dropping" it sounds like a way to create confusion.
 
It might be propaganda, but I've heard that the F-15 has only once faced a MiG-25. They saw each other, the F-15 turned to chase, the MiG turned to evade, opened the throttle to full, and left the F-15 in the dust. Those engines are no joke.
The only thing the 25 was designed to be good at was intercepting high altitude Mach 3ish capable nuclear bombers. Which the US ended up never building anyway past a couple prototypes. Getting it up to that speed and altitude would burn out its huge engines anyway, so they put in governors or whatever that limited it to Mach 2.8. Theoretically it could get up to 3.2

Western intelligence wasn't very complete so they freaked out about this allegedly high altitude capable superfast all weather very maneuverable heavily armed fighter, which is what the F-15 became in response. Which the MiG-25 never was, except for the high altitude and superfast part
 
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