Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

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Do you believe that this series will turn to shit?


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This actually sums up the point I was trying to make earlier way more clearly. Viv is obsessed with the idea of heaven and hell for some strange reason, but doesn't actually want to write about what heaven and hell would "realistically" be. That's why her version of hell is so watered down to basically remove the majority of the bad elements, like no racists/bigots/child molesters etc. There''s a couple of villainous characters, but they really seem to be the exception to the rule. There's some violence, but it's very cartoony and hard to tell if it's supposed to really be taken seriously or more just played for laughs. But otherwise, hell is more or less a safe space for the faggy characters to exist.

It isn't even just that hell has all the bad elements stripped down, but a lot of the interesting elements are gone, like having a bunch of different people from various cultures/time periods interacting with one another. Heaven seems equally stripped down, with little thought put into how paradise functions, what someone has to do to get into Heaven, who decides, where's God etc. While not everyone we see in Heaven is outright evil, it largely exists as an oppressive force for our plucky gay underdog heroes to ultimately overcome and defeat.

In Viv's eyes, hell is the cool rebellious teenager that society just doesn't understand, and heaven is "the man" that has to be overthrown. And on paper, those concepts are fine, I bet 10 years ago if I saw a cartoon like that on adult swim, my teenage self would have loved it and praised it as being deep and profound and laughed at all the people saying fuck a bunch. But it sounds like what really drew a lot of people in is the setting, which Viv completely fails to utilize in any meaningful way.

That's why I think the simplest way to save the show is change Heaven to a massive city/dimension/whatever called Utopia. It's a high-society place where only good people are accepted by the council. Once you turn 18 or 21 or whatever age they decide, you're judged on whether you get to stay, or you're banished to into the wastes, which is also where any criminal offenders go. They're considered subhuman, and the upper class in Utopia pull a purge every year under the guise of quelling the population, but it's just those jerkish rich characters looking for an excuse to beat up the gay lower class. It's in no way a unique premise, but it's more honest about who the target audience is/the overall goal of the show.
Viv's vision of Hell makes a lot more sense if you see it for what it is; Halloween Town for "grownups".

A lot of posts here keep suggesting ways the setting could be improved by changing it completely, but frankly the setting just isn't the problem. I think Viv's Nightmare Before Christmas version of Hell could work as-is if she could focus her energies. The story shoots off in so many different directions that it's impossible to be consistent.

Is Hazbin a story about Satan's daughter helping souls damned to Hell to find redemption? Is it a story about the conflict between Heaven and Hell and the incoherence of a system that not even Heaven understands? Is it a glorified self-RP sesh where Viv gets to smash her dollies together while making kissy sounds? Viv wants HH to be all of these at the same time, which a talented writer could pull off, but if she was a talented writer this thread would probably be a lot shorter.
 
I bet 10 years ago if I saw a cartoon like that on adult swim
I mean mutiple people have brought this up on the thread:

Viv is lagging 10-15 years behind the current times, quite literally mentally and emotionally stunted.

Hazbin hotel would have been groundbreaking 15 years ago, but right now its just played out trite.

As currently writen Its the kind of show that only really works as a countercultural statement which somewhat justifies the crassness, but when you're published by amazon and spout the same ideology as every megacorp on the planet, you're less groundbreaking counterculture and more played out goyslop.
 
A lot of posts here keep suggesting ways the setting could be improved by changing it completely, but frankly the setting just isn't the problem. I think Viv's Nightmare Before Christmas version of Hell could work as-is if she could focus her energies. The story shoots off in so many different directions that it's impossible to be consistent.

Is Hazbin a story about Satan's daughter helping souls damned to Hell to find redemption? Is it a story about the conflict between Heaven and Hell and the incoherence of a system that not even Heaven understands? Is it a glorified self-RP sesh where Viv gets to smash her dollies together while making kissy sounds? Viv wants HH to be all of these at the same time, which a talented writer could pull off, but if she was a talented writer this thread would probably be a lot shorter.
That's fair, I definitely don't think there's one singular change that would suddenly make it a good show. Even with a totally unique setting, the plot threads are still all over the place. I think the setting gets so much attention though because it was the most interesting draw for a lot of people, so that's what they really want to see. I feel like a lot of the setting suggestions are once that also put the focus back on the "finding redemption in hell" plotline.

I personally think that's the most interesting, but I also think it's the one Viv is the least interested in telling because it requires a lot of scenes of deep introspection and acknowledging that the characters are flawed and did bad things and have to take responsibility for their actions. I think in a world with a better hell setting, you ideally wouldn't even introduce the angels until the end of the first season at the earliest, or some time in a future season, with the bulk of the first season being focused on learning about the characters, exploring their sins and actually seeing if redemption is possible. Like, it'd be a largely character driven show that might not even need an outside antagonist, and the musical numbers would be focused on big emotional beats, or maybe a creative way of doing background exposition without having to resort entirely to flashbacks.

As the characters actually start to grow and redemption is possible, that's when you introduce more physical antagonists, although even then, I'd probably keep season 2 focused on hell-based antagonists. The angels can always be a background threat, maybe a ticking clock element of "we have to redeem a soul before X date when the angels come down to purge us" otherwise, I'd save them for final season antagonists.

Hazbin hotel would have been groundbreaking 15 years ago, but right now its just played out trite.
True, but I still think there's a simplified version of the show that would work with a younger audience because they've never encountered a show like it before. I mentioned Adult Swim specifically because I think that's how a lot of teens first experienced things like anime or cartoons where the characters can say fuck, or just some of the "weirder" shows you don't otherwise see during primetime. I imagine it's less revolutionary now because of the internet and streaming, but I think there's still an audience for it. Then again, this might be a moot point because I imagine a lot of the diehard fans are that exact demographic I'm talking about in the first place, so...mission accomplished, I guess. Really, the difference is a simpler show might be looked at with more nostalgia 5 or 10 years down the line, while I think the current version is one of those shows you'd cringe at if you tried to rewatch it as an adult. Well, assuming the "you' in this scenario is someone who grows up, there's definitely going to be some diehard viewers with Viv's maturity that will always enjoy the show.
 
Viv's vision of Hell makes a lot more sense if you see it for what it is; Halloween Town for "grownups".

I unironically think that Vivzie would be a lot better if she stuck to a G or soft PG rating and just made stories about woodland creatures.

She just plain sucks at making adult content.
 
I think the setting gets so much attention though because it was the most interesting draw for a lot of people, so that's what they really want to see. I feel like a lot of the setting suggestions are once that also put the focus back on the "finding redemption in hell" plotline.
I think it has the problem a lot of current Western animation has where it can't decide whether it wants to be an episodic comedic series or have things like overarching plot arcs. It's not unique to Vivz, and frankly there are plenty of commercial, corporate, well-funded Western studios turning out stuff way worse, but it's definitely not what the pilots were promising.
 
Cyber Bowling said:
That's fair, I definitely don't think there's one singular change that would suddenly make it a good show. Even with a totally unique setting, the plot threads are still all over the place. I think the setting gets so much attention though because it was the most interesting draw for a lot of people, so that's what they really want to see. I feel like a lot of the setting suggestions are once that also put the focus back on the "finding redemption in hell" plotline.

I personally think that's the most interesting, but I also think it's the one Viv is the least interested in telling because it requires a lot of scenes of deep introspection and acknowledging that the characters are flawed and did bad things and have to take responsibility for their actions. I think in a world with a better hell setting, you ideally wouldn't even introduce the angels until the end of the first season at the earliest, or some time in a future season, with the bulk of the first season being focused on learning about the characters, exploring their sins and actually seeing if redemption is possible. Like, it'd be a largely character driven show that might not even need an outside antagonist, and the musical numbers would be focused on big emotional beats, or maybe a creative way of doing background exposition without having to resort entirely to flashbacks.
Shit, I was spitballing and came up with more or less the same exact ideal plot you came up with shortly before it released and all our fears were confirmed.

Only other tweaks would be to have Satan as a distant father figure who hurts Charlie to "protect" her from greater threats she is ignorant of because that is all he knows how to do being the ruler of Hell.

Vaggie is a FRIEND and nothing more who was initially forced into the position by Satan but actually warmed up to Charlie's idealism and goes to great lengths to protect it in this now much more depraved and pessimistic hell, none of that stupid fallen angel garbage either.

I would also really play up Charlie being innocent and empathetic to those suffering in hell far more because it only makes sense that the one innocent soul who had no choice but to be in hell, Satan's daughter, would be shielded from the punishments meant for sinners.

I would have had Angel dust be redeemed in the season 1 finale with only Charlie actually there to see it, everyone else doesn't believe her and just assumes he died. Which sets up Season 2 where Charlie now KNOWS that sinners can be redeemed in hell, just not how. Creating an arc where she starts learning her lessons from the failed attempts at redeeming sinners in season 1/2.

I could go on and on, but its just a tumblr clown show for what could have been a genuinely interesting and dare I say complex story if someone with actual vision and writing talent was in charge.
 
I would have had Angel dust be redeemed in the season 1 finale with only Charlie actually there to see it, everyone else doesn't believe her and just assumes he died. Which sets up Season 2 where Charlie now KNOWS that sinners can be redeemed in hell, just not how. Creating an arc where she starts learning her lessons from the failed attempts at redeeming sinners in season 1/2.
To do this episodically, you could have a Sinner of the Episode, sort of like Six Feet Under had a new corpse at the start of every episode, and center it around that sinner even as other plotline stuff went on, either saving them or at least advancing them in that direction.
 
To do this episodically, you could have a Sinner of the Episode, sort of like Six Feet Under had a new corpse at the start of every episode, and center it around that sinner even as other plotline stuff went on, either saving them or at least advancing them in that direction.
Yeah but that would require focus and good writing and we all know she lacks those so
 
To do this episodically, you could have a Sinner of the Episode, sort of like Six Feet Under had a new corpse at the start of every episode, and center it around that sinner even as other plotline stuff went on, either saving them or at least advancing them in that direction.
Could even make it a villain of the week with the sin being the villain and throw in some moral at the end. I think Hell'va Boss had that, but all of the villains of the week sucked and the message usually made zero sense because it was never something that actually troubles people, rather it was dumb shit like capitalism is le' heckin' bad, but the bad guy capitalist has nothing bad happen to them, they just become another gay in hell.
 
Could even make it a villain of the week with the sin being the villain and throw in some moral at the end. I think Hell'va Boss had that, but all of the villains of the week sucked and the message usually made zero sense because it was never something that actually troubles people, rather it was dumb shit like capitalism is le' heckin' bad, but the bad guy capitalist has nothing bad happen to them, they just become another gay in hell.
I liked that episode though. I also utterly adored the C.H.E.R.U.B. they were so nice and well-intentioned.
 
I liked that episode though. I also utterly adored the C.H.E.R.U.B. they were so nice and well-intentioned.
Cherubs were fine, it was everything else that made me realize who was behind the show. It's like seeing someone with a nice pair of shoes and realizing they stepped in dog shit but didn't bother to clean it off.
 
Looks like Emily's VA leaked a bit of season 2's script.
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What in My Little Pony writing hell is this? Actually, no. That's too harsh. My Little Pony had the excuse of being made for children, and even then, it's writing is more mature than this.
Should have just plagiarized a letter to Princess Celestia but had Charlie deliver it instead.
 
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