GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

The real scandal with Intel is that the chips have been 140 nm all along and somebody just misplaced a decimal. Expect whistleblowers to start Boeing'ing themselves in the coming days. These are 140 nm chips and they've just been blasting them with 10,000 watts to give the impression of "cores" and "threads." The whole criminal enterprise is unraveling! They've been selling the same goddamn chips as the fucking Space Station of 1972 and selling it as 21st-century tech. TREASON!
 
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Intel customer bemoans CPU RMA process — furious owner says Intel claims brand new Core i9-14900K chips purchased from Amazon and Micro Center are fake

Reddit user jerubedo took to the r/hardware subreddit to share a story on an Intel RMA nightmare. The individual said the company claimed that the two Core i9-14900K processors suffering from the instability issues plaguing 13th- and 14th-generation Intel chips were fraudulent. The company reportedly said in its response, “Intel reserves the rights to retain the product and/or destroy such product as appropriate.”
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What I want to know is how on earth is ANYONE counterfeiting 14th gen intel chips? Aren't the produced solely in intel owned and controlled foundries? Couldn't this be a sign of a bigger problem where intel's secrets are getting stolen?
 
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Habanero Delight said:
The real scandal with Intel is that the chips have been 140 nm all along and somebody just misplaced a decimal.
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The marketed nm sizes haven't corresponded to reality in a long time.
A more meaningful comparison is transistors per surface area (MTr/mm²)

Taking a random example from 7 nm process (Wikipedia):
Calculated Valuenm
minimum half pitch (DRAM, MPU metal)18
minimum half pitch (Flash, MPU fin, LGAA)15
minimum required OL (DRAM, Flash, MPU)3.6
Gate pitch54
Gate length20
 
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Gigantic Penguin said:
The marketed nm sizes haven't corresponded to reality in a long time.
A more meaningful comparison is transistors per surface area (MTr/mm²)

Taking a random example from 7 nm process (Wikipedia):
Calculated Valuenm
minimum half pitch (DRAM, MPU metal)18
minimum half pitch (Flash, MPU fin, LGAA)15
minimum required OL (DRAM, Flash, MPU)3.6
Gate pitch54
Gate length20
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If the name used to refer to the average memory gate pitch, wouldn't 7nm actually be about 18nm?
And what does OL stand for? Considering how much small it is compared to other features could it be the bit that fails when too much electricity goes through the circuit?
 
Gigantic Penguin said:
From what I can find I'm guessing "overlay".
In this PDF on page 6 there's a row with "Overlay" whose values roughly match that of "minimum required OL" below.

What "overlay" means here I cannot tell you though.
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I'd guess it would be the height of the circuit layer? So how thick they make the conductive surface before etching out all of the paths?
 
#lurker said:
Intelbros... I don't feel so good

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Yeah, we're beyond just a basic trash fire and are in full blown dumpster fire now. Normal media is only just now starting to pick up on the 13/14 gen issues after focusing on the layoffs.

I'm expecting lawsuits to start hitting soon. Especially in Australia and the EU due to their stronger consumer protections.

It's a legitimate possibility Intel has fucked itself for 10+ years and bankruptcy may seriously be on the table.

Absolutely wild after they had a stagnant effective monopoly in the 2010's. (Where a 2500k/2600k was good for a decade.)
 
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Betonhaus said:
I'd guess it would be the height of the circuit layer? So how thick they make the conductive surface before etching out all of the paths?
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Yes, its the metal overlays used to connect the semiconductor circuits, like highways over the ground level streets. They can be many many levels high depending on the complexity.
 
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Aqua Panda said:
Yeah, we're beyond just a basic trash fire and are in full blown dumpster fire now. Normal media is only just now starting to pick up on the 13/14 gen issues after focusing on the layoffs.
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I'm pissed because I have a laptop with a 14700HX that's had a couple of random blue screens with lots of very weird behaviors, and I bet mobile chips are affected too, just that Intel doesn't want to admit that all their products have the same flaw. I hope they get fucked for this.
 
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Betonhaus said:
If the name used to refer to the average memory gate pitch, wouldn't 7nm actually be about 18nm?
Click to expand...

No, because gate pitch was merely a convenient way to measure the entire process, and it no longer is. Sizing processes by gate pitch used to work because everything used to scale down uniformly. If between one process and another, the gate pitch was 50% smaller, then everything else would be 50% smaller, too (this is why console makers would move their chips to smaller processes with few to no changes mid-generation). That is no longer true, so the scale of a process is judged based on its power & transistor density. The reason they keep going with terms like "7nm" and "5nm" is that it's basically shorthand for, "this process has the transistor density that a 7nm process would have if things still scaled like they used to 15 years ago."

Betonhaus said:
Intel customer bemoans CPU RMA process — furious owner says Intel claims brand new Core i9-14900K chips purchased from Amazon and Micro Center are fake


What I want to know is how on earth is ANYONE counterfeiting 14th gen intel chips? Aren't the produced solely in intel owned and controlled foundries? Couldn't this be a sign of a bigger problem where intel's secrets are getting stolen?
Click to expand...

Sounds like their customer service has been told to use any excuse they can to avoid accepting a return. "It's counterfeit, I can see from the smudge on the serial number," lmao, fuck off. Intel is facing possibly the recall of their entire consumer CPU production for the last couple years.
 
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The Ugly One said:
No, because gate pitch was merely a convenient way to measure the entire process, and it no longer is. Sizing processes by gate pitch used to work because everything used to scale down uniformly. If between one process and another, the gate pitch was 50% smaller, then everything else would be 50% smaller, too (this is why console makers would move their chips to smaller processes with few to no changes mid-generation). That is no longer true, so the scale of a process is judged based on its power & transistor density. The reason they keep going with terms like "7nm" and "5nm" is that it's basically shorthand for, "this process has the transistor density that a 7nm process would have if things still scaled like they used to 15 years ago."
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So when we finally reach 1nm will they switch to number of transistors in a square centimeter?

The Ugly One said:
Sounds like their customer service has been told to use any excuse they can to avoid accepting a return. "It's counterfeit, I can see from the smudge on the serial number," lmao, fuck off. Intel is facing possibly the recall of their entire consumer CPU production for the last couple years.
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I don't really see how they can survive this, they would need to restart their 12th gen fabs and sell them at a discount.

Did AMD ever fuck up this bad when it was falling behind?
 
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They are just switching to angstroms from nanometers for the marketing.



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I am not feeling bad for Intel, Dell bribery when they had an inferior product was pathetic.
 
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Betonhaus said:
Did AMD ever fuck up this bad when it was falling behind?
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Not since I've been buying cpus.

People whined about bulldozer and they had that totally bullshit lawsuit about core counts.
(Never mind that in hindsight bulldozer aged better because of intel security mitigations).

The most comparable was the relatively recent issue with ryzen 7xxx chips dying/catching on fire. Turned out to be mobo vendors over juicing chips.

AMD was quick with the rmas, told vendors to knock it off, and set hard limits in the code.
 
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Betonhaus said:
What I want to know is how on earth is ANYONE counterfeiting 14th gen intel chips? Aren't the produced solely in intel owned and controlled foundries? Couldn't this be a sign of a bigger problem where intel's secrets are getting stolen?
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tl;dr they take a way lower value CPU, delid and repackage it. I think some counterfeiters were even able to spoof the on-chip info so it'd report wrong to older operating systems. This was a massive problem in China and some of these CPUs were even packaged up and sold as new in box. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these scam CPUs have ended up in US retail supply chains given how sloppy a lot of businesses are nowadays in validating the provenance of their goods (just look at all the counterfeit shit that gets sold directly by Amazon).

Igor's lab has a good article on it.
 
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Pattern Juggler said:
Sounds like someone in AMD said 'fuck we better double check that oxidation thing can't happen to our chips'.
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Overly Serious said:
Videocardz reports that the reason for the unexpected delay in AMD's launch is because the wrong number was printed on some of the chips. They work fine and the chip number is one that doesn't actually exist (Ryzen 9 9700x) but they didn't want that to go out.
View attachment 6251512


I thought this was too silly to be true but then Ian Cutress backed it up and he's pretty reputable imo, so... LOL?

Got to love that AMD is holding back chips because of a typo on the lid whilst in the same month Intel is refusing to recall chips that literally burn themselves out.
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I don't think there was actually anything wrong at all with either the chips or the packaging. Intel dropped the ball hard, and no large customer is going to be buying Intel unless it's strapped to SLAs like Xenon. The only option left is AMD, and AMD knows it. There's no real point in releasing an upgraded product line if your only competitor is effectively out of business in the short term.
4090 Chad said:
Suspending dividend starting in the fourth quarter of 2024. The company reiterates its long-term commitment to a competitive dividend as cash flows improve to sustainably higher levels.
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Might actually be good, it gets the greedy firms out.
4090 Chad said:
  • Reducing Operating Expenses: The company will streamline its operations and meaningfully cut spending and headcount, reducing non-GAAP R&D and marketing, general and administrative (MG&A) to approximately $20 billion in 2024 and approximately $17.5 billion in 2025, with further reductions expected in 2026. Intel expects to reduce headcount by greater than 15% with the majority completed by the end of 2024.
  • Reducing Capital Expenditures: With the end of its historic five-nodes-in-four-years journey firmly in sight, Intel is now shifting its focus toward capital efficiency and investment levels aligned to market requirements. This will reduce gross capital expenditures* in 2024 by more than 20% from prior projections, bringing gross capital expenditures in 2024 to between $25 billion and $27 billion. Intel expects net capital spending* in 2024 of between $11 billion and $13 billion. In 2025, the company is targeting gross capital expenditures between $20 billion and $23 billion and net capital spending between $12 billion and $14 billion.
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Yeah there's a lot of employee bloat, if we're to be optimistic, the non-engineers and non-science-degrees will get the boot first. Who am I kidding, the MBAs will stick around like leeches.
4090 Chad said:
Simplifying Our Portfolio: We will complete actions this month to simplify our businesses. Each business unit is conducting a portfolio review and identifying underperforming products. We are also integrating key software assets into our business units so we accelerate our shift to systems-based solutions. And we will narrow our incubation focus on fewer, more impactful projects.
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Eh, not a fan of this. There's a lot of ego to go around in a heavily structured company like Intel. There's going to be a lot of pet projects getting approved. The P-core team didn't get a lot of help, and Lion Cove was very underwhelming as a result.
#lurker said:
Intelbros... I don't feel so good

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It should be over for Intel's C-suite. The shareholders, if they were united, should demand their immediate release, no payments.
 
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