Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Frederica Bernkastel]

The other side throws a temper tantrum and floods the thread with garbage for a couple pages and then declares they won the argument when they as much as see a video of Trump himself saying something that goes against their narrative.

I mean, all this is showing you're not thinking objectively, and are holding an internet grudge. I'm not sure how you're any better.

 

[No. 7 cat]

Hence the apparent cow-towing to Putin since he's the one with the nukes and not Zelensky who haves no nukes.

It would be one of the easiest things for Ukraine to develop an Israeli style deniable but well understood Samson option deterrent. They have the rocketry, materials and know how to hand. Friendly states (like France did for Israel) would quietly help.Even if Ukraine got NATO membership as arch Brexiteer Nigel Farage now suggests, the value of that or the likelier Euro security guarantees are unclear. Russia and Red China repeatedly and blatantly attacked European communication connections with dragging anchors. It's not just Trump. Euro leaders, barring certain exceptions seem to prefer pandering to Russia as the US did since the Soviet
Union fell.

Scholz seems to be panicking wanting a State of Emergency over another Car Of Peace, Trump and Putin.

 

[Snekposter]

It's the same problem with that SIG garbage MCX program. Everyone was so certain the Russians were going to have super titanium armor plates that could withstand M80 ball and would require Tungsten core M995 ammo to have a chance of defeating with M4A1s. Turns out it was all bullshit and Russia can't even uniformly provide a level IIIA equivalent plate and now we don't need a replacement carbine. Not that the MCX was any good. It's typical Sigshit like the M17.

The fact that its Sig is probably the least terrible thing about it. The whole program is a gigantic clusterfuck because after spending a few decades and god knows how many millions of dollars, the US Army decides to introduce a .308 necked down to .270 as an intermediate round. Which unsurprisingly wildcatters have already done to some success. Of course, despite being ballistically what you'd expect out of a .308 necked down to .270 the cartridge dimensions are juuust different enough it needs to be classed as a completely new round and thus an entire brand-new supply line devoted to it, both in getting it to the actual troops and the tooling for its production. And no, we can't just stick a .270 barrel on all of our pre-existing .308 weapons but we have to buy all new guns for this all-new cartridge, and even if we wished to convert .308 weapons we need to buy full kits for that thanks to even the rim diameter being changed from that of the .308 for no good fucking reason.

For once I am eternally grateful to God that the Euros know precisely jack and shit about guns or they'd never let us live this down instead of sagely nodding at the wisdom of adopting such a new and modern round.

- MY NAME IS T-90 NOW, DAD

I had no idea trans-armor was the latest gender fad.

Keeping some land gives Russia the cope condition of "well technically you didn't keep us out of your entire country " to claim victory with, and arguably one could make the argument Russian can exploit the newly captured regions for resources, etc.

Believe it or not I can see Trump convincing Zelensky to hand over Crimea if it gets him the Donbass back. With the dam gone its water supply situation is dubious and having Crimea as a buffer region around Sevastopol is pointless on account of Ukraine driving the entire Black Sea Fleet from it without a single Ukrainian soldier ever stepping into Crimea. It is essentially worthless to Putin as any sort of strategic buffer zone, but there's no fucking way Russian pride would let him trade it to Ukraine, even in demilitarized form, for more valuable concessions elsewhere.

Don't forget that unless the treaty with Russia explicitly states Ukraine can't sign something with us, what are the chances Trump and Zelensky leave an opportunity like that on the table to sign all sorts of agreements.

"Security guarantees? Massive foreign investment? Joint military R&D that Raytheon's shareholders and Congressmen are going to love? Oh, I'm sorry Putin, I guess I should have said that when I said the USA had no desires or interests in doing any of that at the current moment and that we could defer discussions on that until a later date I meant said later date was the second your troops left Ukraine."

Aaaand there's the stick.

Assuming it's real and not just a plastic display stick.

This is Trump we're talking about, so that stick is probably about as big and real as Teddy Roosevelt's ever was.

Or it means they are a gaggle of incompetents who don't know how to negotiate.

Ah yes, Donald Trump, businessman from the infamously gentle and idealistic world of New York real estate that has never had the mafia get involved, is terrible at negotiating and never once wrote a book on how to do that his enemies have all read and so never fall for any of the tricks in it.

The russians shit themselves in rage when Aegis Ashore was installed in Poland, it'd be doubly hilarious if Trump cut a deal to build one in Ukraine.

How much would the Russians seethe if a couple were built in Skadvosk?

 

[-Jack-]

I mean, all this is showing you're not thinking objectively, and are holding an internet grudge. I'm not sure how you're any better.

Don't most people do that here with Democrats? Neither is better, similar to Tories and Labour (in the UK). It seems people here are very much willing to give people they traditionally agree with (Trump/MAGA mostly) the benefit of the doubt, which is not objective thinking because it's inherently biased.

 

[Gambina Enthusiast]

Can someone tell me which of the euro populist parties are ACTUALLY ziggers? I have heard and read this multiple times, including in this thread, but in my personal experience our populist guy just floated the idea of our troops on the ground in Ukraine and the was Farage as well calling for a proper peace deal as well. Are those the exceptions or is AfD the exception

 

[Fuck It We'll Do It Live]

Can someone tell me which of the euro populist parties are ACTUALLY ziggers? I have heard and read this multiple times, including in this thread, but in my personal experience our populist guy just floated the idea of our troops on the ground in Ukraine and the was Farage as well calling for a proper peace deal as well. Are those the exceptions or is AfD the exception

Assuming you're Finnish (@Glowie is speaking Finnish on your profile page and you have an Apu edit as your avatar), Finland is pretty much as fundamentally anti-Zigger as it gets; pretty sure only Ano Turtiainen is your resident Zigger (and, by extension, the Power Belongs to the People party that he used to belong to).

Farage is a Bong and Bongs are beyond TZD but even TRD (see the Crimean War and the Great Game) so being too pro-Russian wouldn't exactly be popular; more pro-Zigger Brits tend to be subtlety critical of Atlanticism rather than express open admiration for STRONK Putin.

If anything, the most worrying thing populists can do is encourage a grassroots disdain/apathy for continued and/or more support for Ukraine in Euro countries. Obvious Ziggery with Orbán and Fico attracts too much attention from Brussels.

 

[Oxyjen]

Farage is a Bong and Bongs are beyond TZD but even TRD (see the Crimean War and the Great Game) so being too pro-Russian wouldn't exactly be popular; more pro-Zigger Brits tend to be critical of Atlanticism rather than express open admiration for STRONK Putin.

Farage did, of course, manage to bring about a brexit win with the help of Russian info warfare. Anything that causes trouble in eurocuck land is good for Putin, he plays the long game.

 

[No. 7 cat]

This administration is downright schizophrenic
It would be nice if they talked things out between each other before making public statements on important matters at least. What am I supposed to believe?

It's so unclear. Some pro Ukraine GOP Congressman posted a clip of recent Trump words, which sounds strongly supportive of Ukraine, but it's possibly in a context of severely conditioning or constraining aid to Ukraine. Yet those words might be the key words. Maybe I deserve rainbows.

Shaybaboy the Ukrainian war cat and his human and scout Alex Lyashuk variously advertise a pet friendly hotel in Ukraine and the 'Come Back Alive' initiative which raises money for Ukrainian servicemen.

Spoiler: Zelensky says that without NATO Ukraine will need an army of 1.5 million to defend itself

If Ukraine does not join NATO as part of a peace deal, it will need Western support to maintain an army of 1.5 million soldiers as deterrence against a future Russian invasion, President Volodymyr Zelensky told reporters on Feb. 14 at the Munich Security Conference.

The remarks come amid ongoing uncertainty around possible alternative workable security guarantees for Ukraine given the reluctance of some NATO members to invite Ukraine to join the alliance.

Previously floated ideas have included the presence of European troops on the ground in Ukraine, but without an open signal from Washington backing the idea, little progress has been made.

"It doesn't matter what country these forces are from. In any case, we need 1.5 million troops if we are not in NATO," Zelensky said.

"If we really want not to be afraid of a new occupation or a new Russian invasion, these are real security guarantees. (Vladimir) Putin will know that he has a 1.5 million army, and Ukraine has a 1.5 million army. If he wants to come and die (in Ukraine), he is welcome to do so," Zelensky added.

Ukraine currently has 110 combat brigades, while Russia has 220, according to Zelensky. "So, we need 220," he added.

Ukraine officially applied to join NATO in September 2022 following Russia's full-scale invasion. While NATO members asserted at the 2024 summit in Washington, D.C., that Ukraine's path to membership is "irreversible," they have yet to extend a formal invitation.

Ukraine has relied on NATO member states for military aid in its defense against Russia's full-scale invasion. Ukraine regularly holds visits and summits with NATO leaders.

archive / original

Ukraine has a potential force including reserves of one million men and some women, but with a border of 1926 miles it is not just the hot fronts in the east or the lukewarm zone along the Dnipro, and the age profile of the active Ukrainian units, the very challenging demographics, it isn't wholly clear how viable this is even if Trump gave Zelensky and successor a blank check, which isn't on offer yet or at all (a Congressional delegation at the Munich Security Conference offered a draft agreement granting the US half of Ukraine's mineral resources, which the Ukrainian Pres declined). A nuclear armed Ukraine might be the smarter and cheaper option, in the only possible option, although it would not be remotely cheap and would have to be kept at a level of deniability.

Probably mentioned already how Russia attacked the Chornobyl sarcophagus with a suicide drone. Putin is morally depraved. He cares little about the deaths and disablement of close to one million Russians and even less about the death and destruction he has visited on Ukraine. Given the existing environmental destruction from blowing a dam in Kherson, unleashing Chornobyl would be something he'd be happy to do. Given the turd worldist outlook of the UN and its Vienna based IAEA, they would probably echo Russia and try blame Ukraine and call it a false flag.

​

 

[Ghostse]

Why the actual fuck would Putin want to drone strike Chernobyl?

Because it makes the limpdicks globally shit themselves in terror. This is Putin's opening move in the peace negotiations.
Muh nuclear wessels, better give Russia Ukraine and Baltics as well or they might chimp out.

Some statements from Vance (archive of full article from WSJ).

PARIS—Vice President JD Vance said Thursday that the U.S. would hit Moscow with sanctions and potentially military action if Russian President Vladimir Putin won’t agree to a peace deal with Ukraine that guarantees Kyiv’s long-term independence.

Vance said the option of sending U.S. troops to Ukraine if Moscow failed to negotiate in good faith remained “on the table,” striking a far tougher tone than did Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who on Wednesday suggested the U.S. wouldn’t commit forces.

“There are economic tools of leverage, there are of course military tools of leverage” the U.S. could use against Putin, Vance said.
In an interview with The Wall Street Journal hours after President Trump said he would start negotiating with Putin to end the war in Ukraine, Vance said: “I think there is a deal that is going to come out of this that’s going to shock a lot of people.”

Aaaand there's the stick.

Assuming it's real and not just a plastic display stick.

This is another typical Trump (well in this case Trump-driven) non-statement.
Trump doesn't every want to hem himself in and will refuse to rule any course of action out or commit to anything to reporters. You can see this in virtually every interview.

Are even worse sanctions on the table? Yes.
Is military deployments on the table? Yes.
Is challenging Putin to a literal dick measuring contest to decide the disposition of the Donbas on the table? Yes.
Is paying a bunch of former McDonalds employees to mount an insurrection in Moscow on the table? Yes.
Is summoning Martian UFOs to Death Ray every statue of Lenin world-wide on the table? Yes.

This administration is downright schizophrenic
It would be nice if they talked things out between each other before making public statements on important matters at least. What am I supposed to believe?

The absolute uncertainty in what the fuck Trump is going to actually do is a feature not a bug. No one can be ready for what you're coming in the door with if they are still trying sort through mounds of bullshit trying to find clues as to what you're planning
As an outside observer, it is very frustrating though.

I'm pretty sure Kellog and Hegseth had their own understandings of what the play was, and when they overstepped they got reigned in. I believe what Hegseth said was likely him misspeaking the party line which is no public mention of military commitments, or you're going to lose the people who voted for non-intervention. If are going t you put military action as a response, you need to be able to make a solid case to American people for Russia Bad.

 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton]

Aaaand there's the stick.

Assuming it's real and not just a plastic display stick.

what a faggot he is.
All he's done in life was write a book about growing up white trash.

 

[1Tonka_Truck]

.308 necked down to .270 the cartridge dimensions are juuust different enough it needs to be classed as a completely new round and thus an entire brand-new supply line devoted to it,

I'm not saying any part of the NGSW program is good, but 80kpsi chamber pressure and bi-metal cases is a bit more than juuust different enough. I will never understand the Army's obsession with .270 bullets. 6mm would have higher ballistic coefficient and sectional density at the same weight. The entire thing can be summed up with more weight for fewer rounds and more recoil for the questionable utility of extra armor pen capability.

 

[Snekposter]

I'm not saying any part of the NGSW program is good, but 80kpsi chamber pressure and bi-metal cases is a bit more than juuust different enough.

Yeah, but you can get those while staying close enough to the original dimensions you don't end up tossing the baby out with the bathwater so you can justify buying both a new baby and bathwater. We already have shit like .458 SOCOM that was explicitly designed to be shot out of the standard M4 with just a barrel swap (yes, I know its not exactly the same), so its not like they absolutely 100% needed to do that, not when things like heavier buffer springs and resized gas ports exist for managing chamber pressures.

 

[The Unbecoming]

So what's the QRD on the Vance/Zelensky talks?

 

[Prester John]

This administration is downright schizophrenic
It would be nice if they talked things out between each other before making public statements on important matters at least. What am I supposed to believe?

If Trump has everybody guessing as to his true intentions, I would think that's a good thing for negotiations.

 

[No. 7 cat]

source

Sen Lindsey Graham pushing the minerals deal which in draft grants the US half of Ukraine's resources, and which Zelensky declined for now. If that meant unstinting aid and support to Ukraine, it would be hard but maybe bearable, even if a bit scummy, transaction and colonial. It isn't clear, probably even to members of the Trump Administration what will happen. Trump seems to suggest it in terms of repaying an invented debt of $500 billion, and sometimes in terms of a basis for alliance. It's so unclear.

 

[Hillary Rodham Clinton]

View attachment 6982699

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Sen Lindsey Graham pushing the minerals deal which in draft grants the US half of Ukraine's resources, and which Zelensky declined for now. If that meant unstinting aid and support to Ukraine, it would be hard but maybe bearable, even if a bit scummy, transaction and colonial. It isn't clear, probably even to members of the Trump Administration what will happen. Trump seems to suggest it in terms of repaying an invented debt of $500 billion, and sometimes in terms of a basis for alliance. It's so unclear.

Lindsey Graham is a closeted homosexual.

 

[No. 7 cat]

Lindsey Graham is a closeted homosexual.

That's so well known the term 'closeted' barely fit, but unlike the other GOP Senatorial dinosaur Cocaine Mitch, he's in favor at court. His doings can be read as a sign of a direction or angle Trump might take. McConnell voted against both the confirmation of RFK jr and Tulsi Gabbard, which was courageous and right, motivated by personal experience of Polio, and so is very much not in favor and a target of Truth Social insults.

Can someone tell me which of the euro populist parties are ACTUALLY ziggers? I have heard and read this multiple times, including in this thread, but in my personal experience our populist guy just floated the idea of our troops on the ground in Ukraine and the was Farage as well calling for a proper peace deal as well. Are those the exceptions or is AfD the exception

Farage has repeated several zigger talking points yet now calls for Ukraine to be let into NATO. Marine Le Pen leader of Rassemblement national has declared herself and her party supportive of Ukraine yet financial support from Russia has happened in the past via generous bank facilities. Geert Wilders has also declared himself supportive of Ukraine yet pro Russian positions and support are known. Vox of Spain supported receiving Ukrainian refugees and condemned the invasion, but grumbles now about the spending on aid and from 2024 repeated the usual fake worries about escalation. AfD led by a lesbian shacked up with a Sri Lankan woman living in Switzerland are almost solely supported in the former East Germany. They're strongly pro Putin, and basically Red Army rape babies.

 

[Clownish]

Hoping for elections in Ukraine so they can elect an even more rabid zigger hater and dirty bomb moscow.

 

[WelperHelper99]

View attachment 6982699

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Sen Lindsey Graham pushing the minerals deal which in draft grants the US half of Ukraine's resources, and which Zelensky declined for now. If that meant unstinting aid and support to Ukraine, it would be hard but maybe bearable, even if a bit scummy, transaction and colonial. It isn't clear, probably even to members of the Trump Administration what will happen. Trump seems to suggest it in terms of repaying an invented debt of $500 billion, and sometimes in terms of a basis for alliance. It's so unclear.

Nah, Lindsey is a faggot and should never be trusted. That said I take Trump at his word. The US is getting mining rights. That is happening period. That is perfectly clear and VERY fair for the equipment and money that has been expended.

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

Ukraine and Zelensky's main problem with those rare earth minerals and other tangible hard currency items isn't just Trump eyeballing them as payments for goods and services. Although Trump and the other interested parties are on the same page on making the Ukrainian pie bigger and the fair distribution of the slices.