The Confederate Flag

[AnOminous]

It doesn't matter if you know who Henry Ford is. A car will still work when you try to use it.

A car is a technological artifact with objective characteristics that would do the same thing on Mars or operated by energy beings from the planet Zoltan. It doesn't mean anything, even if inferences could be made about the kind of beings that would create it and their purposes for doing so.

A symbol is entirely contextual. I doubt the occasional black person who flies that flag is doing it out of internalized racism.

There are also contexts where using it is entirely neutral, such as when reenactors or tabletop gamers use it. There it is solely used because it is actually connected to the relevant historical period.

 

[Cid Highwind]

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong but this is still completely recursive, right? He's just saying that the meaning didn't change because it didn't change.



But yo, here's the trick: I'm not making any assumptions about what anyone believes concerning the flag, that's what you're doing. I know what Kanye was trying to say, but only because he has told us ("Fuck this flag" is essentially correct, yes.) On the other hand, John Lewis, another black man, used it as a symbol of racial unity in the south. He told us this. Without being told, we don't know what Kanye is trying to say when he flies the flag of the confederacy and we don't know what Typical White Southerner is trying to say either. That's my belief. Your belief seems to be that using it makes people racist and I can't ride with that.

Is the Typical White Southerner trying to say "fuck the flag"? Uh, probably not, but there are hundreds of degrees between that and "Kill niggers" (Most of which are purely fashion statements) and it's inappropriate to paint all these people with the same brush.

My argument is not recursive. What I'm saying is specifically this: the original meaning of the flag, as intended by it's designers, is the same meaning the flag has today, as intended by it's users. Go to a white supremacy rally in the USA and if you fail to see one confederate flag there, I will admit to being wrong. But I'm not. Why? Because it's used at white supremacy rallies for what it signifies.

Something tells me that you've never been to the south and personally known the people who fly the confederate flag. I do not feel it is inappropriate to paint them all with that brush at all. Yes, using it is a racist sign and that's it's meaning today. I say this not out of ideology but out of experience. If there are people who do fly the confederate flag out of a reason other than "i hate niggers", I've never met them nor known them to exist. And I've met many southerners who fly the flag.

Yes, the meaning it has is only the meaning we give it. But as a white person, I feel more sensitive about the flag than most black people do because it paints my heritage in a negative manner. My last name is a regional one (Yes, Highwind has roots in the southern US) and I've had to deal many times with white people in the south who would assume I'm racist just because I'm obviously southern. Once at my auto mechanic, while I was waiting in the lobby a black man came in to make a delivery that the boss had to sign for. He was already engaged in a conversation with one of the many white people in the lobby. While signing for the delivery, with a large black man less than 5 from him, he said out loud "the police ought to come to this area and arrest some of these crack niggers" to the person he was talking to. Like the black guy wasn't even there. I was horrified, but I couldn't say anything. Welcome to Louisiana!

See, I've personally known racists who fly the flag and when asked about it cite "heritage", even though I know the truth of who they because they felt ok to express these opinions around me when I was a child. I've seen the lie in action.

It's been great but unlike most days that I'm on the forum, I actually took off work today.

 

[HG 400]

Once at my auto mechanic, while I was waiting in the lobby a black man came in to make a delivery that the boss had to sign for. He was already engaged in a conversation with one of the many white people in the lobby. While signing for the delivery, with a large black man less than 5 from him, he said out loud "the police ought to come to this area and arrest some of these crack niggers" to the person he was talking to. Like the black guy wasn't even there. I was horrified, but I couldn't say anything. Welcome to Louisiana!

Crack cocaine is an incredibly addictive drug that destroys communities and ruins lives. Violent and property crime skyrocket in neighborhoods where crack trafficking takes root and the streets can become notably dangerous to walk at night. Why wouldn't you want the police to come arrest more crack niggers and clear up your neighbourhood?

Also I think it's incredibly racist that you just assumed the black guy in your story was a crack nigger himself and should therefore be offended by that. Not all black people smoke crack, y'know.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

In the Baltic countries, the swastika is a still a sign of good luck and fortune.

No it isn't.

My argument is not recursive. What I'm saying is specifically this: the original meaning of the flag, as intended by it's designers, is the same meaning the flag has today, as intended by it's users. Go to a white supremacy rally in the USA and if you fail to see one confederate flag there, I will admit to being wrong.

Nobody is arguing that the flag cannot be used to display racism. We're just saying that that isn't its only possible use. Why does the sincere intent of a white supremacist displaying the flag determine some kind of immutable truth, while the equally sincere (if clueless) intent of somebody using it to symbolise Southern pride, or conservative libertarianism, or Confederate heritage, or batfucking for that matter determine nothing?

Seriously man, I get what you're saying, and I agree that the original intent of the flag is too often obscured by those who use it. But at the same time, you are really taking your point several steps too far. As @AnOminous said, symbols are not mechanical devices, and they are ultimately always open to interpretation. The interpretation is contextual with the society it takes place within, and some interpretations are extremely niche, but that doesn't mean that other interpretations are "correct", and it certainly doesn't mean that the actual intentions of people displaying the symbol are erased by some universal truth.

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

My argument is not recursive. What I'm saying is specifically this: the original meaning of the flag, as intended by it's designers, is the same meaning the flag has today, as intended by it's users. Go to a white supremacy rally in the USA and if you fail to see one confederate flag there, I will admit to being wrong. But I'm not. Why? Because it's used at white supremacy rallies for what it signifies.

But the same thing applies to the swastika. You can still find Buddhists who use it as a sign of peace. That has no bearing on what nazis are using it for. I just don't see how what you're saying is logical, but I'll let it go.

This is from the first google search result for "confederate merchandise." I wouldn't see this and take it as evidence that none of them are racists, personally. This seems to identify them as goofy LARPers instead.

 

[Marvin]

But the same thing applies to the swastika. You can still find Buddhists who use it as a sign of peace. That has no bearing on what nazis are using it for. I just don't see how what you're saying is logical, but I'll let it go.

This is from the first google search result for "confederate merchandise." I wouldn't see this and take it as evidence that none of them are racists, personally. This seems to identify them as goofy LARPers instead.
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The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.

My experience with them tells me that the exact opposite is true. A great majority of the ones I've encountered are apolitical rednecks who wear and fly it because it's a chic thing to do in their discourse community.

 

[Holdek]

The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.

When it was brought back in vogue in the 1960s as a banner against the Civil Rights Movement, this was certainly true. Originally being from the South, I know a lot of people who use the Confederate Flag now and aren't racist. They use it as a badge of pride-of-place.

But they are still ignorant assholes because they either don't know that its resuscitation as a cultural emblem after 100 years was done to oppose the Civil Rights Movement, or they otherwise just don't give a shit that it's painful symbol for blacks, especially blacks who are older.

It is amusing to watch them do cartwheels to try to claim that the flag wasn't about slavery or oppression of blacks, or even that the Civil War itself wasn't about slavery (). But, yeah, it's way past time to stop honoring it.

 

[AnOminous]

The difference is that people who use the confederate flag in a non-racist context are an extreme minority.

[citation needed]

 

[HG 400]

No it isn't.

Is it Finland I'm thinking of? I remember some kind of hassle when one of those chucklefuck countries tried to give Merkel a swastika.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Is it Finland I'm thinking of? I remember some kind of hassle when one of those chucklefuck countries tried to give Merkel a swastika.

No idea. But I can assure you that around these parts, displaying a Swastika is an evocation of Nazi Germany, be it negatively or (sadly) positively.

 

[Holdek]

Is it Finland I'm thinking of? I remember some kind of hassle when one of those chucklefuck countries tried to give Merkel a swastika.

Isn't @Joey Jo-Jo Junior a Finn? Maybe he can weigh in on the chucklefuckery.

 

[Squealer]

I heard one of you boys hates being white? That's like hating being of the negro race, it's fucking racist

 

[dabluearmedbandit]

I'm from the south and not a racist, and the way you assume all people of a certain culture act and think the same way based only on the ones you've met seems pretty similar to racism, dude.

 

[HG 400]

I'm from the south and not a racist, and the way you assume all people of a certain culture act and think the same way based only on the ones you've met seems pretty similar to racism, dude.

Prove you're not a racist. Post an incredibly autistic 500-word essay on how much you hate the confederate flag like all these other non-racist southerners did. Otherwise you're a racist and literally worse than the KKK.

 

[Joey Jo-Jo Junior]

Isn't @Joey Jo-Jo Junior a Finn? Maybe he can weigh in on the chucklefuckery.

Im a Dane. @Clown Doll is Finnish tho.

 

[Cid Highwind]

This is the Imperial Flag Of Japan. You probably know that this is essentially the Japanese equivalent of a swastika in the eyes of Koreans and Chinese (And was to the Japanese as well, about 50 years ago.)

Is the artist who created E. Honda's Street Fighter 2 stage a racist?

Is this cool, hip millennial a racist?

Is this mediocre band racist?

This Japanese Navy dude? Maybe! I never met the dude, he might really despise all Koreans. At one point this flag represented the need to stomp all Koreans out of existence, now it's seen as a shockingly forward-thinking bit of graphic design or a sign of good fortune.

Like the Imperial Flag Of Japan, it seems to me that the reason why the Confederate flag is so popular in the south is not because it a symbol of their racism, but because to most of them, it is such a benign and mainstreamed symbol that it's effectively meaningless, no different from a Rolling Stones logo on a t-shirt. To another percentage it is about southern pride, and certainly to others it is a symbol of their outright racism. But these are all different people from different communities with different beliefs or non-beliefs about what their silly little dead flag means.

And I'm back from guitar center.

I have not spent time in east Asia and I am not very familiar with the cultures in that region. Therefore I feel I am too ignorant of what you talk about to have any sort of opinion on it. I'm just telling you my personal experiences from living in the southern USA, take it or leave it. I do not understand what the point is over arguing semantics. The fact is that in the southern USA, flying the flag means one thing. I say that from experience. If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your prerogative and more power to you for it.

 

[Squealer]

And I'm back from guitar center.

I have not spent time in east Asia and I am not very familiar with the cultures in that region. Therefore I feel I am too ignorant of what you talk about to have any sort of opinion on it. I'm just telling you my personal experiences from living in the southern USA, take it or leave it. I do not understand what the point is over arguing semantics. The fact is that in the southern USA, flying the flag means one thing. I say that from experience. If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your prerogative and more power to you for it.

That's pretty damn elitist

 

[Cute Anime Girl]

Vandalizing memorials, of any kind, is fucked.

You can't erase history no matter how much it hurts your special snowflake feelings.

Also you people who think the South is still in the 1860s need to get your heads out of your asses.

 

[KatsuKitty]

It's only a matter of time before we see this in re-runs of The Dukes of Hazzard:

Also, Apple is now removing Civil War games in the App Store....because they contain the Confederate flag.