Anti-Vax Movement

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  • Yes

    Votes: 6 54.5%
  • No

    Votes: 5 45.5%

  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .
A vaccine is at least helpful for scientists who experiment with the virus, or healthcare workers, or old people [...]
Having a vaccine available for people who want it makes total sense.
Yes, but not these vaccines with this level of uncertainty and thus potential risk involved. Really consider everything that's been posted about it. Consider everything divulged and yet how much it's being pushed ahead--not with study (which would be fine) but speedy and broad distribution and application.
You can't possibly say this vaccine, this tech, in this manner, as it is now, makes sense for availability (let alone potentially being mandated or part of mandatory company/workplace policy).
 
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Is that in the EU? In the US, the government handles liability for vaccine problems anyway, so if you live there it's probably not a major difference from normal. That only matters if you care about money and/or other people, the company or the government can't un-inject you.
Yes for EU , and Ministry of Truth article normies asking about the mediacal free past.
Edit lol for mod change from doom pilling to Anti vax.
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The worst case scenario with a vaccine like this are effects that take a long time to show up or be identified. Issues that take a year or less would either be detected before mass rollout to young people, which would cause the longest term problem.

My current risk assessment is people who are unlikely to die of disease in general and can stay away from hospitals or old people should avoid it until April 2021. I'm not currently more skeptical about the vaccine, because I can't think of a method where problems would appear over a year after injection, that's not related to pre-existing immune system problems.
 
You are an anti-vax retard, the likes of which we used to mock on this site before it was invaded by /pol/ trash like yourself.

>case study of 4 people
>part of a case study of 27
>another study of 43
>another of 153

these are exploratory studies and do not have a significant enough number of participants to make any kind of larger claim about covid in general without significantly more investigation. there are also currently 66.5 million total cases globally, if this had a significant rate of occurrence you would be hearing a LOT more about it. does it suck for those kids and adults? yes. do i want them to suffer? no. is this something you should bring to an argument? probably not.

The worst case scenario with a vaccine like this are effects that take a long time to show up or be identified. Issues that take a year or less would either be detected before mass rollout to young people, which would cause the longest term problem.

My current risk assessment is people who are unlikely to die of disease in general and can stay away from hospitals or old people should avoid it until April 2021. I'm not currently more skeptical about the vaccine, because I can't think of a method where problems would appear over a year after injection, that's not related to pre-existing immune system problems.
i mean, the current vaccine basically makes people sick in 80%+ of cases, so i personally wouldn't administer it to the vulnerable populations that would most benefit from being vaccinated, and everyone who isn't already particularly sick (the average number of comorbidities per covid death in the US is 3.09, up from 3.07 a couple weeks ago, and up significantly from the 2.6 average the CDC first announced months ago) has such a good outlook after getting the disease that they're practically better off not getting vaccinated and just taking the disease if they get it.

also just to head off the "but muhbesity" argument that always comes up when you mention comorbidities: obesity is only listed as a comorbidity in 9,293 of 243,575 tracked deaths on the CDC's information.

CDC's current data.

anyways here's a man that has a vested financial interest in continued covid panic saying that everyone needs to cut it out and get back to living.
 
>case study of 4 people
>part of a case study of 27
>another study of 43
>another of 153

these are exploratory studies and do not have a significant enough number of participants to make any kind of larger claim about covid in general without significantly more investigation. there are also currently 66.5 million total cases globally, if this had a significant rate of occurrence you would be hearing a LOT more about it. does it suck for those kids and adults? yes. do i want them to suffer? no. is this something you should bring to an argument? probably not.


i mean, the current vaccine basically makes people sick in 80%+ of cases, so i personally wouldn't administer it to the vulnerable populations that would most benefit from being vaccinated, and everyone who isn't already particularly sick (the average number of comorbidities per covid death in the US is 3.09, up from 3.07 a couple weeks ago, and up significantly from the 2.6 average the CDC first announced months ago) has such a good outlook after getting the disease that they're practically better off not getting vaccinated and just taking the disease if they get it.

also just to head off the "but muhbesity" argument that always comes up when you mention comorbidities: obesity is only listed as a comorbidity in 9,293 of 243,575 tracked deaths on the CDC's information.

CDC's current data.

anyways here's a man that has a vested financial interest in continued covid panic saying that everyone needs to cut it out and get back to living.
I find it ironic you quote the same people you want us to find suspicion in.
 
I find it ironic you quote the same people you want us to find suspicion in.
i find it ironic that you skipped over the body of what i was saying to pull that out of your ass but here we are.

the data that the CDC has on hand has nothing to do with whether or not they decide to push this vaccine when there's massive political pressure from all sides to get it out -- look at trump's grandstanding about it in the past months, look at states and countries saying they'll stay locked down indefinitely until a vaccine is out. i'm drawing my own conclusions from their data, little else.
 
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i find it ironic that you skipped over the body of what i was saying to pull that out of your ass but here we are.

the data that the CDC has on hand has nothing to do with whether or not they decide to push this vaccine when there's massive political pressure from all sides to get it out -- look at trump's grandstanding about it in the past months, look at states and countries saying they'll stay locked down indefinitely until a vaccine is out. i'm drawing my own conclusions from their data, little else.
I pull a lot of things out of my ass. For example, I could argue the merits of your post, or I can simply take pleasure in provoking you to anger.
 
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Even if you don't agree with the anti-vax position, it's odd how much people have been conditioned to REE at the idea that vaccines may have ingredients in them that are unsafe - or that corrupt big business doesn't mess things up even a little bit.

That said, vaccines themselves aren't a bad idea to me.
 
Even if you don't agree with the anti-vax position, it's odd how much people have been conditioned to REE at the idea that vaccines may have ingredients in them that are unsafe - or that corrupt big business doesn't mess things up even a little bit.

That said, vaccines themselves aren't a bad idea to me.
its just the itch that make people fill wrong that if the docotr get it wrong free pass - get it right free positive press it win-win situation for the doctors. most people do believe the science for everything before 2020 but with this rush vaccine in 2020 people want to be few boddies behind find out if better take just get covid or take shot because we rather have fun than be dead from misttakes that labeled woops & no montary paymemnt bessides Bereavement Money.
i just can't wait for december 2021 with covid-21 in united sates :story:
 
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Even if you don't agree with the anti-vax position, it's odd how much people have been conditioned to REE at the idea that vaccines may have ingredients in them that are unsafe - or that corrupt big business doesn't mess things up even a little bit.

That said, vaccines themselves aren't a bad idea to me.
they're not and i have nothing against the average vaccine, though there's been some debate about the polio vaccine in recent years (in part because things like paralysis were actually relatively rare side effects, but it's not really worth going into here), i mostly take issue with this one. especially with an expected immunization period of just six months and the 80+% chance of rather unpleasant side effects. nevermind the fact that to date we've never successfully made a coronavirus vaccine, and rushing this one through --and giving drug companies complete immunity from legal repercussions -- seems like the exact opposite of what we should be doing with that track record.
 
>case study of 4 people
>part of a case study of 27
>another study of 43
>another of 153

these are exploratory studies and do not have a significant enough number of participants to make any kind of larger claim about covid in general without significantly more investigation. there are also currently 66.5 million total cases globally, if this had a significant rate of occurrence you would be hearing a LOT more about it. does it suck for those kids and adults? yes. do i want them to suffer? no. is this something you should bring to an argument? probably not.


i mean, the current vaccine basically makes people sick in 80%+ of cases, so i personally wouldn't administer it to the vulnerable populations that would most benefit from being vaccinated, and everyone who isn't already particularly sick (the average number of comorbidities per covid death in the US is 3.09, up from 3.07 a couple weeks ago, and up significantly from the 2.6 average the CDC first announced months ago) has such a good outlook after getting the disease that they're practically better off not getting vaccinated and just taking the disease if they get it.

also just to head off the "but muhbesity" argument that always comes up when you mention comorbidities: obesity is only listed as a comorbidity in 9,293 of 243,575 tracked deaths on the CDC's information.

CDC's current data.

anyways here's a man that has a vested financial interest in continued covid panic saying that everyone needs to cut it out and get back to living.

Okay but like, how sick. Maybe I'm just a desensitized asshole with serious compassion fatigue but I don't even count "2 days of flu like symptoms and being tired for a while" as a side effect worth anymore than a footnote if we could be sure that was all. Anaphylactic reactions, serious and prolonged autoimmune conditions, a zillion blood clots, or a cytokine storm triggered by subsequent exposure to the coof? That is the shit I am worried about. If it's happened it's not being mentioned, and even if the studies weren't ass you can't extrapolate them to billions of people and anything that might take more than a few months to fuck you up is totally unknown. For people in long term care it might be an okay calculated risk since if the bad shit happens to some of them it's at least not contagious, and it could buy them a few good years if it works. Leave it up to them, but I'm worried they might be forced into isolation and denied visitors if they don't, which is fucked.

Most of the studies I've read about the vaccine development don't actually say much about Covid-19 but just go off what we know about SARS, which is a good place to start and a lot better than nothing, but this isn't SARS. They always come back to "but we don't know" and that doesn't cut it for me. If the potential vax side effects are the same as the worst potential effects of coof and confer half assed or short lived immunity at best, I think I'd rather not mainline that shit and just take my chances trying to dodge the coof, at worst the whole thing is either a clown shoes retarded waste of money or a colossal fucking scam. Maybe I'm just paranoid and mRNA vaccines work exactly as they're meant to, but I legit think I'd rather try Sputnik.

About the obesity, I get your point but the data is skewed weird because most of the people who died were really old and very fat people just straight up do not get to be that age. If younger fat people are made a priority group, they have the most to lose if shit goes sideways. Comorbidities out the ass and many potential years to suffer. Front line workers too, but they're probably healthy enough to be fine. Using "minorities" as a test group and graciously allotting a few million vax doses to crowded shithole countries kind of sets off an alarm considering the shit that has gone down in the last hundred years with regards to human experimentation and medical abuse. If joggers started peacefully protesting outside the CDC headquarters it'd be hard to blame them.
 
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Okay but like, how sick. Maybe I'm just a desensitized asshole with serious compassion fatigue but I don't even count "2 days of flu like symptoms and being tired for a while" as a side effect worth anymore than a footnote if we could be sure that was all. Anaphylactic reactions, serious and prolonged autoimmune conditions, a zillion blood clots, or a cytokine storm triggered by subsequent exposure to the coof? That is the shit I am worried about. If it's happened it's not being mentioned, and even if the studies weren't ass you can't extrapolate them to billions of people and anything that might take more than a few months to fuck you up is totally unknown. For people in long term care it might be an okay calculated risk since if the bad shit happens to some of them it's at least not contagious, and it could buy them a few good years if it works. Leave it up to them, but I'm worried they might be forced into isolation and denied visitors if they don't, which is fucked.

Most of the studies I've read about the vaccine development don't actually say much about Covid-19 but just go off what we know about SARS, which is a good place to start and a lot better than nothing, but this isn't SARS. They always come back to "but we don't know" and that doesn't cut it for me. If the potential vax side effects are the same as the worst potential effects of coof and confer half assed or short lived immunity at best, I think I'd rather not mainline that shit and just take my chances trying to dodge the coof, at worst the whole thing is either a clown shoes retarded waste of money or a colossal fucking scam. Maybe I'm just paranoid and mRNA vaccines work exactly as they're meant to, but I legit think I'd rather try Sputnik.

About the obesity, I get your point but the data is skewed weird because most of the people who died were really old and very fat people just straight up do not get to be that age. If younger fat people are made a priority group, they have the most to lose if shit goes sideways. Comorbidities out the ass and many potential years to suffer. Front line workers too, but they're probably healthy enough to be fine. Using "minorities" as a test group and graciously allotting a few million vax doses to crowded shithole countries kind of sets off an alarm considering the shit that has gone down in the last hundred years with regards to human experimentation and medical abuse. If joggers started peacefully protesting outside the CDC headquarters it'd be hard to blame them.
i'm not too familiar with exactly how sick people get, but it's enough to cause desistence and have people avoiding getting the second shot, which is necessary for full efficacy. if it was just the sniffles for a few days i doubt you'd see that much problem with it. one of the core problems i have with it is that the mRNA vector is just...untested, they're rushing this through so fast we won't get to know what any long term effects are, and part of me is worrying that it will have lasting effects on the immune system, which we really do not have a great understanding of as it is. normal vaccines are fine because they're just getting the immune system to do its thing with a little prompting, and this is...very much not that.

the thing about obese people is that we should be focused on helping them get healthy, not fucking everything up for everyone else because they might get sick. it would be more effective to work on their health as an individual than to ruin the collective social health of our societies for some nebulous "protection" for them. especially if they up and cork it anyways because a ham lodged itself in their aorta.

many of the deaths seem like they were already desperately sick and would have died to nearly anything though -- and i surmise the reason flu deaths are way, way down is in part because of the harvesting effect covid had on what would normally be flu victims. for the older cohorts, we're talking people who in a lot of cases probably only had months left to live regardless. it's not good that they died before their time, i don't mean to sound like i lack compassion for them, but fucking everyone over five ways to sunday with lockdowns and an untested vaccine just because people die sometimes is just stupid.
 
i'm not too familiar with exactly how sick people get, but it's enough to cause desistence and have people avoiding getting the second shot, which is necessary for full efficacy. if it was just the sniffles for a few days i doubt you'd see that much problem with it. one of the core problems i have with it is that the mRNA vector is just...untested, they're rushing this through so fast we won't get to know what any long term effects are, and part of me is worrying that it will have lasting effects on the immune system, which we really do not have a great understanding of as it is. normal vaccines are fine because they're just getting the immune system to do its thing with a little prompting, and this is...very much not that.

the thing about obese people is that we should be focused on helping them get healthy, not fucking everything up for everyone else because they might get sick. it would be more effective to work on their health as an individual than to ruin the collective social health of our societies for some nebulous "protection" for them. especially if they up and cork it anyways because a ham lodged itself in their aorta.

many of the deaths seem like they were already desperately sick and would have died to nearly anything though -- and i surmise the reason flu deaths are way, way down is in part because of the harvesting effect covid had on what would normally be flu victims. for the older cohorts, we're talking people who in a lot of cases probably only had months left to live regardless. it's not good that they died before their time, i don't mean to sound like i lack compassion for them, but fucking everyone over five ways to sunday with lockdowns and an untested vaccine just because people die sometimes is just stupid.

Ah yeah we are pretty much agreeing. I think you're right about people feeling like ass after the first shot and dropping out, trials that require followups get shit retention all the time if you don't have good incentives. Only minor disagreement I have is that it was anything worse than, essentially, what amounts to the sniffles for a few days. People are complete and absolute fucking pussies when it comes to discomfort, you have no idea. In this case I can't completely blame them because they have every reason to be scared shitless and feeling moderately like crap for a few days is sufficient to dissuade people from being test subjects for a totally new type of vaccine for a virus hyped up to be a horseman of the apocalypse. Tbh I'm kind of an asshole to even talk because I sure as hell am not lining up to get it.

Fat people being America level fat is a social issue that I don't think is going to be solved on an individual level. Somewhere we decided we were so afraid of kids starving themselves that we'd rather encourage them to beetus themselves to death than risk teaching them how calories work and how to calculate a roughly appropriate amount because God forbid they might get neurotic about it. Gen X was where it started and them being raised by a generation that actually often did remember what undernourishment was like, food stamps and rapid agriculture advancements that made food stupid cheap, society becoming more depressed and shiftless due to less physical work, the war on drugs taking away the ability to self medicate and replaced by antidepressants by the fucking boatload, it was all a perfect storm that led to a bunch of consoomers whose shitty vice is cheap garbage food. I don't want to sperg on this too much more because it's a bit off topic, but it all comes back to being so coddled that people get bored and shiftless, we've essentially eliminated discomfort from our daily lives to the point a hint of it becomes intolerable to many. To bring it back to the coof, it's why so many people are scared shitless of death, refuse to accept there is any damage they can do that a doctor can't fix, and are so blindly willing to "trust the science" because the idea that the CDC or WHO might be talking out their asses just isn't conceivable. You don't look at old/sick/disabled people, they get dropped in homes and visited once a year while strangers deal with the icky stuff and they either get cured or die. Modern medicine can do amazing things yes, childhood vaccines are the tits and the illnesses they prevent are very shitty, but sometimes shit just happens and you can't do squat. (And take some responsibility for your damn self instead of blaming the doctor for not being an omniscient pill wizard, holy fuck.) Obviously not everyone is like this, maybe not even the majority, but burning society to the ground so deathfats won't coof while they ironically refuse to stop committing suicide by fork is ass backwards.

Funny thing about the old people is that most of them that I'm aware of don't care if they catch the coof, they're more upset about family not being allowed to visit "for your own good." Vaccine, untested, what the fuck ever, if I can see my grandkids now you can shoot me up, who cares. Most of them don't want to be put on ventilators either. Old people are actually pretty cool.
 
Side effects:
The FDA says Pfizer’s Covid vaccine is safe and effective. But trial participants warn of intense symptoms after second shot

The FDA said data from Pfizer’s Covid vaccine trials show that side effects are common

One Pfizer trial participant told CNBC that after the second shot, he woke up with chills, shaking so hard he cracked a tooth. “It hurt to even just lay in my bed sheet,” he said.

Others experienced headaches and fatigue.

The FDA said that while side effects of the Pfizer vaccine are common, there are “no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of an EUA.”

One Pfizer trial participant told CNBC that after the second shot, he woke up with chills, shaking so hard he cracked a tooth. “It hurt to even just lay in my bed sheet,” he said.

Others experienced headaches and fatigue.

The FDA said that while side effects of the Pfizer vaccine are common, there are “no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of an EUA.”

After a restless night, he called the study doctors, who reassured him it was a normal reaction and no cause for concern.
HEALTH AND SCIENCE
The FDA says Pfizer’s Covid vaccine is safe and effective. But trial participants warn of intense symptoms after second shot
PUBLISHED TUE, DEC 8 20203:31 PM ESTUPDATED TUE, DEC 8 20208:40 PM EST
MacKenzie Sigalos
@KENZIESIGALOS
Under the Pfizer-BioNtech deal, the 27 EU countries could buy 200 million doses, and have an option to purchase another 100 million.
Under the Pfizer-BioNtech deal, the 27 EU countries could buy 200 million doses, and have an option to purchase another 100 million.
NurPhoto | Getty Images
KEY POINTS
The FDA said data from Pfizer’s Covid vaccine trials show that side effects are common, though there are “no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of an” emergency use authorization.
Trial participants in the Moderna and Pfizer studies told CNBC they developed more significant symptoms following the second dose.
The Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine is both safe and effective, according to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. In a report released Tuesday morning, the FDA indicated that it could greenlight the country’s first Covid-19 inoculation within days.

If Pfizer’s shot is granted an emergency use authorization, or EUA, the immunizations — which are administered in two doses about three weeks apart — could start as soon as next week.

Many people are now wondering whether this will be just like getting the flu vaccine.

The short answer is: No, not really.

FDA report finds Pfizer Covid vaccine safe and effective
One Pfizer trial participant told CNBC that after the second shot, he woke up with chills, shaking so hard he cracked a tooth. “It hurt to even just lay in my bed sheet,” he said.

Others experienced headaches and fatigue.

The FDA said that while side effects of the Pfizer vaccine are common, there are “no specific safety concerns identified that would preclude issuance of an EUA.”

Be prepared for the second shot
The Pfizer vaccine is one of four U.S.-backed candidates in phase three trials. Next up is one from U.S. biotech firm Moderna, which has also submitted its EUA application.

Both companies have said that taking their vaccines could result in side effects similar to mild Covid symptoms. Think muscle pain, chills and a headache.


Source: Yasir Batalvi
When trial participant Yasir Batalvi first read Moderna’s 22-page consent form warning of side effects ranging from nothing at all to death, he felt pretty worried, he told CNBC.

“You have to keep in mind, I joined the trial when we didn’t know it was going to be a safe vaccine,” said Batalvi, a recent college graduate living in Boston.

The 24-year-old said that when he got the first injection in mid-October, it felt just like a flu shot. “I experienced stiffness and pain in my left arm where I had gotten the shot, but it was mild,” he explained. “By that evening, I didn’t want to move my arm above my shoulder, but it was localized, and it disappeared by the next day.”

The second dose was a different story.

“After the injection, I had the same side effects as the first: localized pain and stiffness, but it was a little bit worse. My arm got sore faster, and by the time I got home, I started feeling fatigued and like anyone would feel if they were coming down with the flu,” said Batalvi.

More significant symptoms presented that evening. “I developed a low-grade fever and had chills,” he said. “That evening was rough.”

I developed a low-grade fever and had chills. That evening was rough.
Yasir Batalvi
MODERNA TRIAL PARTICIPANT
After a restless night, he called the study doctors, who reassured him it was a normal reaction and no cause for concern. By that afternoon, Batalvi said, he felt like himself again.

Moderna stopped testing the highest dose of its vaccine during the trial because of the number of reports of severe adverse reactions.

As for any long-term effects, Batalvi isn’t giving it much thought. “I’m not too concerned,” he said. “We know from vaccination trials that any adverse events mostly show up in the first couple of months.”

How an mRNA vaccine works
Front-runners Pfizer and Moderna built their candidates with a new kind of technology that’s never before been licensed in the U.S.

Messenger RNA vaccines, called mRNA for short, aren’t like your normal flu vaccine. Typically, a vaccine puts a weakened or inactivated virus into our bodies to trigger an immune response, which then produces antibodies. Those antibodies are what ultimately protect us from getting infected if we ever encounter the real thing.

An mRNA vaccine, on the other hand, is essentially just a piece of genetic code that contains instructions for our body. The mRNA tells our cells to make a protein — the same protein that is the spike on top of the actual coronavirus. This is what triggers the immune response in these types of vaccines.

So even though some trial participants reported Covid-like symptoms, it is impossible to contract the coronavirus from the vaccine, because the mRNA vaccines that Pfizer and Moderna are making don’t use the live virus.


Source: Yasir Batalvi
Dr. Hana El Sahly, who oversees a clinical trial for Moderna’s vaccine candidate, said one major benefit of the mRNA technology is how fast it is to make. “The attractiveness of it is the speed with which it can be manufactured once we know the sequence of the virus,” said El Sahly.

With the traditional flu vaccine, you have to first grow the virus in an egg, then deactivate the virus, and finally, put it into vaccine vials with either mRNA or recombinant DNA technology, explained El Sahly.

The Covid vaccine’s faster manufacturing timeline is key, as distributors look to expedite distribution to the U.S. population.

Paying for the vaccine
Also key to widespread vaccination is making sure governments around the world have enough money to buy the vaccines.

Moderna said in August it is charging between $32 and $37 per dose for its vaccine and would perhaps offer a discount if it is bought in bulk. Pfizer’s, on the other hand, is more affordable. It is reportedly $20 per dose.

The U.S. has secured 100 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, which is enough to vaccinate 50 million people.

But to achieve herd immunity, experts say, roughly 70% of the population needs to be vaccinated or have natural antibodies. That’s about 462 million doses for herd immunity and an estimated 660 million doses for everyone in the country.

Pfizer board member Dr. Scott Gottlieb told CNBC on Tuesday that President Donald Trump declined the company’s offer to buy additional doses.

A debate over unblinding the control group
Both Pfizer and Moderna are conducting double-blind trials, which means that half the participants receive a placebo and the other half receive the actual vaccine. Because the trials are ongoing, it also means that patients don’t know which group they are in.

There is a debate raging among experts about whether to give the control group the vaccine.

The FDA isn’t too keen on the idea of dosing the placebo group, while some scientists are making the case that they should be moved higher on the prioritization list as a thanks for their service.

But this kind of break in trial protocol would interfere with the integrity of the trial, so for now, participants such as Batalvi remain in the dark as to whether they’re actually protected against the virus. A person can still present symptoms, as Batalvi did, even if they are in the control group. It’s the “placebo effect.”

But either way, Batalvi said he’s glad he had the opportunity to participate in an effort to protect the world against the pandemic
 
All I'm saying is if you get this vaccine because of your political leanings and not because you actually looked into it and feel its the best choice for you, you deserve any long term side effects you get. I don't even think this is some sort of nefarious ploy by big pharma or the gov, they just literally can't know what the long term side effects are at this point.
 
All I'm saying is if you get this vaccine because of your political leanings and not because you actually looked into it and feel its the best choice for you, you deserve any long term side effects you get. I don't even think this is some sort of nefarious ploy by big pharma or the gov, they just literally can't know what the long term side effects are at this point.
Bitch nobody here is getting this shit first unless they're like 80 years old and diabetic and already in a nursing home, or they're already vital medical personnel exposed to this shit every day. So before anyone here even has the CHOICE of getting it, it's already been tried out on an entire population of nearly dead guinea pigs and actual medical people. If it didn't kill them it won't kill you. Unless you're a serious faggot. Which you're sounding like.
 
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