Disney General - The saddest fandom on Earth

[KO 864]

The Original Treatment of Monsters Inc. (then called Monsters) is in my opinion, somehow better than the original film. By having Boo (here called Mary) be older, she can actually be a character, and by not having Mike you get more of a feel for the relationship between Sully (here called Johnson) and Mary, than the time dedicated to Mike and his relationships. I like the idea of setting up Johnson as being incompetent as you have a rise and then a fall, instead of the fall from the top. He's a more fluid character. I also like the idea of starting the movie with a scaring montage, and I love how the ending would've been the cutest thing ever, them spending their lives together in the human world. Only problem I have with it is that Ned being evil seems superfluous. It would work better if there wasn't really a villain, just people doing their job, though I wouldn't expect that much from what is objectively a kids' film. It is possible that due to the limited nature of the pitch I'm projecting what I want to see onto it, but I really think Monsters had more potential than the masterpiece it became.

Other cool unused ideas for the film are that at one point both Mike and Sully were dating Celia as she had two heads, Mike had a goatee, and Mike would have instead said that Boo was Sully's 'Sister's niece' making her his daughter. I find this funnier than the string of relations Mike rattles off as it comes back to something that just raises more questions and seems kind of conspicuous

 

[friedshrimp]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't care much about the Pixar films tbh. Yeah yeah I know they're popular, but they always felt rather cold and unrelatable movies for me. The classic Disney films are corny, but they. have stuff I personally find more appealing, tbh.

 

[KO 864]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't care much about the Pixar films tbh. Yeah yeah I know they're popular, but they always felt rather cold and unrelatable movies for me. The classic Disney films are corny, but they. have stuff I personally find more appealing, tbh.

Could you elaborate on how you feel they're cold? Is it in a corporate way or more of a non-genuine way (as in the films don't feel genuine). I've never seen this criticism and would like to understand

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Could you elaborate on how you feel they're cold? Is it in a corporate way or more of a non-genuine way (as in the films don't feel genuine). I've never seen this criticism and would like to understand

I've heard that same argument before, but them "feeling cold" sounds to me like it's just another way to explain how formulated they are. But, honestly, didn't Pixar basically end up "perfecting" the formula they've been using since day one? Everyone's pretty much read their book and decided to put their own little spin on what was set up for them. They're nothing more than stepping stones to inspire future animators and storytellers, basically.

This is a bit of a weird topic-changer, but I'm curious about the consensus of romance portrayed in Disney films without (maybe) the Internet's influence on opinion. It was just something that came to mind when I got distracted by Tarzan that I stayed a bit to watch the sequence of Jane running from the baboons and Tarzan swooping in to rescue her and they go through the wild roller coaster vine ride to escape them, then having their proper introductions in the tree. I remember being fascinated by that sequence as a kid, but there's just something about it that I really adore. In fact, Tarzan and Jane's relationship is one aspect of the film that I really like about it, and the poignancy of their scenes together has always stuck with me.

It's really weird, I honestly don't know how to explain it without sounding like a sped, but maybe it just appeals to me as a hopeless romantic or something. But I guess it's because the film in general is well-directed, especially their scenes. I even think their kiss is the best of the Disney kisses, like I remember being blown away by it in the theater, which is, again, really weird to say since I was just a kid.

But yeah. Am just curious is all.

 

[KO 864]

I've heard that same argument before, but them "feeling cold" sounds to me like it's just another way to explain how formulated they are. But, honestly, didn't Pixar basically end up "perfecting" the formula they've been using since day one? Everyone's pretty much read their book and decided to put their own little spin on what was set up for them. They're nothing more than stepping stones to inspire future animators and storytellers, basically.

This is a bit of a weird topic-changer, but I'm curious about the consensus of romance portrayed in Disney films without (maybe) the Internet's influence on opinion. It was just something that came to mind when I got distracted by Tarzan that I stayed a bit to watch the sequence of Jane running from the baboons and Tarzan swooping in to rescue her and they go through the wild roller coaster vine ride to escape them, then having their proper introductions in the tree. I remember being fascinated by that sequence as a kid, but there's just something about it that I really adore. In fact, Tarzan and Jane's relationship is one aspect of the film that I really like about it, and the poignancy of their scenes together has always stuck with me.

It's really weird, I honestly don't know how to explain it without sounding like a sped, but maybe it just appeals to me as a hopeless romantic or something. But I guess it's because the film in general is well-directed, especially their scenes. I even think their kiss is the best of the Disney kisses, like I remember being blown away by it in the theater, which is, again, really weird to say since I was just a kid.

But yeah. Am just curious is all.

I think you're on to something with Tarzan. Their relationship has a lot of time to grow, there's clearly chemistry from the start, but it's not a love at first sight thing. The whole Strangers Like Me scene is great growth for them, their love feel natural instead of tacked on.

I can't say I'd know about a consensus on Disney romance but there are a few couples I really like. Shang and Mulan are probably the best of the Princess couples followed very closely by Tiana and Naveen. Once again, not love at first sight, and the characters go through a good bit of growth before the feelings come out. Hercules and Meg is also pretty great, and on a more obscure note I love Johnny Fedora and Alice Blue Bonnet. While not for me personally, I do know of some people who really dig the """romance""" of John and Jim from Treasure Planet if you know where to look. Belle and the Beast are also obviously great.

Also, I can see Pixar films being formulaic but I don't think that was what @friedshrimp was getting at as they mentioned never really liking Pixar films, implying to me that it's not tiredness of them. Maybe it's that most are incredibly emotionally manipulative, giving the impression that the only way they get you to like the movie is with sad scenes and wowing you in the last act (ala Spielberg's more sentimental films).

 

[Kari Kamiya]

I think you're on to something with Tarzan. Their relationship has a lot of time to grow, there's clearly chemistry from the start, but it's not a love at first sight thing. The whole Strangers Like Me scene is great growth for them, their love feel natural instead of tacked on.

It's kinda there that Tarzan may have fallen for Jane at first sight, or at least after the danger of baboons had passed. If not at first sight, then it was when it really hit him in that tree that there was someone like him. And since that epiphany, he was pretty much attracted to her, not wanting to not look at her. Like holy shit, go check out his expressions whenever Jane is on-screen with him, they're the perfect examples of adoration, oh my God especially during "Strangers Like Me".

Sorry, I have to swoon just this once, such a good scene why can't someone look at me like that.

Oh speaking of Tarzan's amazing expressions, I actually just recently learned this. There's a story behind Tarzan's reaction when he first touched Jane's hand in that the lead animator replicated his expression for when he held his newborn daughter for the first time.

Watch the whole thing 'cause it's great, but that story's at the very end.

While not for me personally, I do know of some people who really dig the """romance""" of John and Jim from Treasure Planet if you know where to look.

Fuck yaoi fangirls, there is nothing about John and Jim's relationship that remotely screams "let's fuck". It's one of my favorite examples of a young man finding a father figure in his life, like outside of the adventure of searching the seas of space for a treasure that may-or-may-not exist, the heart of the film is between them. Without John's guidance, Jim would've been nothing. And likewise, John wouldn't have a heart.

Belle and the Beast are also obviously great.

"Tale as old as time" indeed.

Also, I can see Pixar films being formulaic but I don't think that was what @friedshrimp was getting at as they mentioned never really liking Pixar films, implying to me that it's not tiredness of them. Maybe it's that most are incredibly emotionally manipulative, giving the impression that the only way they get you to like the movie is with sad scenes and wowing you in the last act (ala Spielberg's more sentimental films).

Them being "emotionally manipulative" is the biggest complaint I hear as well, and I don't think people are wrong for believing that. Maybe it is true that Pixar has calculated how to tug at your emotions, and that's all part of the formula they had created. Still, the movies of theirs that are great did something different that no one had seen at the time, which is why they were so successful and beloved. Like yeah, their plots aren't original (there's only seven plots, after all), but it's the environments that are original. Like who would've thunk that you could feel emotions for toys trying to get back home, for a fish searching for his lost son, for a rat who just wants to cook?

 

[KO 864]

It's kinda there that Tarzan may have fallen for Jane at first sight, or at least after the danger of baboons had passed. If not at first sight, then it was when it really hit him in that tree that there was someone like him. And since that epiphany, he was pretty much attracted to her, not wanting to not look at her. Like holy shit, go check out his expressions whenever Jane is on-screen with him, they're the perfect examples of adoration, oh my God especially during "Strangers Like Me".

View attachment 582382
Sorry, I have to swoon just this once, such a good scene why can't someone look at me like that.

Oh speaking of Tarzan's amazing expressions, I actually just recently learned this. There's a story behind Tarzan's reaction when he first touched Jane's hand in that the lead animator replicated his expression for when he held his newborn daughter for the first time.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=dL--LwIgXo4Watch the whole thing 'cause it's great, but that story's at the very end.



Fuck yaoi fangirls, there is nothing about John and Jim's relationship that remotely screams "let's fuck". It's one of my favorite examples of a young man finding a father figure in his life, like outside of the adventure of searching the seas of space for a treasure that may-or-may-not exist, the heart of the film is between them. Without John's guidance, Jim would've been nothing. And likewise, John wouldn't have a heart.



"Tale as old as time" indeed.



Them being "emotionally manipulative" is the biggest complaint I hear as well, and I don't think people are wrong for believing that. Maybe it is true that Pixar has calculated how to tug at your emotions, and that's all part of the formula they had created. Still, the movies of theirs that are great did something different that no one had seen at the time, which is why they were so successful and beloved. Like yeah, their plots aren't original (there's only seven plots, after all), but it's the environments that are original. Like who would've thunk that you could feel emotions for toys trying to get back home, for a fish searching for his lost son, for a rat who just wants to cook?

Looking back at it it does seem that Tarzan was smitten with Jane at once, but to me I think that's more the first time he's met a human, and the wonder and amazement of finally meeting someone like him. I don't feel it springs to romance until Strangers Like Me, but that's just my interpretation. They are really cute together, almost too cute really.

I was just joking in regards to the Jim/John shippers. I felt that I should mention it as one of my pet cows is a massive LJS fan, and the thought of them together just makes me laugh, both in how dumb it is, and in how it would overtake her self insert. They make each other better, but it's a paternal relationship. The only people who see it as romantic would have to have a poor relationship with their father, or an Electra complex.

While I agree wiht you for the most part on the settings of Pixar films being original, there are some clear exceptions in UP, and Toy Story 3. Up especially tries to milk the sadness out of you to leave a favourable impression. While I could just be a miser who hates dogs and children, the supporting characters are mostly annoying, and the antagonists aren't particuarly memorable (a common Pixar problem post The Incredibles). The key portions of the film are the Married Life segment (sheer magic in 8 minutes) and the scenes that call back to Ellies death. If Married LIfe was cut, the film would be pretty garbage as nothing would really hold the impact it did. It uses your sadness over the loss of Ellie to get you to like the movie.

Finally, I'm sure there's a Tarzan to your Jane out there somewhere, though an internet cyber bullying forum is probably the wrong place

 

[Dolphin Lundgren]

A Goofy Movie was an underrated Disney classic and it's still enjoyable.
Also this.

And this because it still makes me laugh.

 

[friedshrimp]

As for romance in Disney films...It really depends honestly. So many journalists and anti Disney critics like to paint them all off as shallow and forced, but watching the films closely, you see that romance varies from film to film. Of course the old princess films are the worst contenders for showcasing romance ("I just met you, but I know you're the love of my life!"), but I think from there Disney learned and showed better romances, developing the leads and showing how they grow to know and love one another (Lady and the Tramp, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Tarzan, the Rescuers, Tangled). So yeah, not every film is Snow White or Cinderella, and people should know that distinction. That's a good thing honestly.

As for Pixar, I dunno. There's just something about them that I don't find as appealing as the Disney films. Might be the lack of magic for more "mundane" situations, or how the films feel more "boy oriented" (I just can't get out of my mind how a bunch of office guys did the films, much more than ever at Disney), or how they manipulate emotions out of people (Inside Out, Toy Story 3 and Up are guilty of this) but there's just something about them that I can't fully get into. I did sorta like Toy Story and the Incredibles, tho, so maybe it's not about all of them.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

As for romance in Disney films...It really depends honestly. So many journalists and anti Disney critics like to paint them all off as shallow and forced, but watching the films closely, you see that romance varies from film to film. Of course the old princess films are the worst contenders for showcasing romance ("I just met you, but I know you're the love of my life!"), but I think from there Disney learned and showed better romances, developing the leads and showing how they grow to know and love one another (Lady and the Tramp, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, Tarzan, the Rescuers, Tangled). So yeah, not every film is Snow White or Cinderella, and people should know that distinction. That's a good thing honestly.

Well, that's the way romance generally is in fairy tales.

But there's a great story about how Michael Eisner was looking at the early storyboards for Aladdin, specifically the scene where Aladdin first met Jasmine - which, in this early draft, involved him sneaking over a fence and giving her an apple - and said: "I can see why he likes her. But I can't see why she likes him."

So the directors decided to figure out why exactly someone like Jasmine would fall for Aladdin, and thus we got the romance that's in the film as it was released.

 

[Dolphin Lundgren]

On the topic of romance in Disney- that's one thing that made me like Cinderella 3. The prince had more interaction with Cinderella and got more involved in finding her.

Robin Hood had some sweet love moments.

By the way I was surprised to find out that Robin Hood wasn't very popular. I loved it when I was a kid and watched it a lot.

 

[vhstape]

Love reading up about the unmade Disney movies, would be great if they made some of them for the new streaming service especially if they made some of the 2d ones, and yes I know
Here are few of the more interesting ones
Fraidy Cat was meant to be directed by John Musker and Ron Clements, the duo behind disney movies such as Aladdin, Hercules and most recently Moana , it was meant to be a Alfred Hitchcock parody

Spoiler: Plot to Fraidy Cat

Oscar, a cat and Corina, a cockatoo are pampered, spoiled house pets that live an easy life in their owner's London flat. However, when a fellow neighbourhood pet is kidnapped and Oscar is the prime suspect, the two must set off on a mission to find out who the real culprit is so that they can clear Oscar's name.

Newt, was a pixar movie which was canceled as it's plot was similar to that of Rio which also would have beat Newt planned release, what is interesting about this movie is with the Fox deal, Disney are about to own the Blue Sky Studios the makers of Rio.

King of the Elves, based on the short story by Philip K. Dick, it was meant to be directed by Aaron Blaise and Robert Walker who only directed Brother Bear previously however at some point Chris Williams took over directing duties. Was due out in 2012 but was shelved in 2009 ,only to be put back into development in 2010 for a 2013 release however they ran into "story problems" which killed the movie.

Spoiler: Plot of King of the Elves

Based on Philip K. Dick's 1953 short story fantasy "The King of the Elves", the film is about a band of elves and one dwarf living in the modern-day Mississippi Delta who name a local human, Calder, their king after he helps save them from an evil troll.

Tons of other interesting movies that have been cancelled for many different reasons since the 1940s, stuff like Chanticleer which was first canceled due to WW2 then but back in development in both the 1960 and 80s. Reynard the Fox due to him being to dark for for Walt Disney to be the protagonist of a movie, at one point he was planned to be the villain of a verison of the unmade Chanticleer movie. A Sinbad the Sailor movie which was canceled after Aladdin for some reason, Jeffrey Katzenberg when forming Dreamwork Animation took the idea along with him and what would become Antz as well.

 

[friedshrimp]

Count me in as another one who likes the romance of Robin Hood. It's simple, yeah, but it's also rather sweet. It kinda helps that the couple is already in love during the events of the movie, so we can imagine how long they've been together and such.

As for King of the Elves, yeah, I reckon the reason why the movie was shelved was due to marketing. Disney would think a movie with an elderly black man as the lead wouldn't sell as many toys as a pretty princess or a plucky talking animal.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

Tons of other interesting movies that have been cancelled for many different reasons since the 1940s, stuff like Chanticleer which was first canceled due to WW2 then but back in development in both the 1960 and 80s. Reynard the Fox due to him being to dark for for Walt Disney to be the protagonist of a movie, at one point he was planned to be the villain of a verison of the unmade Chanticleer movie. A Sinbad the Sailor movie which was canceled after Aladdin for some reason, Jeffrey Katzenberg when forming Dreamwork Animation took the idea along with him and what would become Antz as well.

The story about Reynard is that Walt Disney thought he was too unsympathetic to be a good protagonist. Eventually in the early 60s, they planned to use him in a version of the tale of Chanticleer - based on Edmond Rostand's play - which Don Bluth remembered and used as the basis of Rock-a-Doodle. It would have been like a Broadway musical, long before the Ashman-Menken stuff in the 90s Disney films.

Unfortunately Walt's expenses on Disneyland and his plans for EPCOT meant that they had to only release one film every four years. It was either Chanticleer or The Sword in the Stone. Everyone knew Chanticleer wasn't going to make it when one of the Disney brass said that no one would ever watch a film with a chicken as the protagonist.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

Looking back at it it does seem that Tarzan was smitten with Jane at once, but to me I think that's more the first time he's met a human, and the wonder and amazement of finally meeting someone like him. I don't feel it springs to romance until Strangers Like Me, but that's just my interpretation. They are really cute together, almost too cute really.

True, true.

and the antagonists aren't particuarly memorable (a common Pixar problem post The Incredibles)

Yeah, the antagonist could've been fleshed out more, but I think it was great to get an elderly villain, especially one who was the hero and biggest inspiration for the main character and his wife. It was super personal for him to learn just how much of a bastard he really was and that he was basically "lied" to his entire life.

The key portions of the film are the Married Life segment (sheer magic in 8 minutes) and the scenes that call back to Ellies death. If Married LIfe was cut, the film would be pretty garbage as nothing would really hold the impact it did. It uses your sadness over the loss of Ellie to get you to like the movie.

But yeah, I can see that. I think if it focused more on that aspect and was woven better into the narrative it'd have helped. Dug was clearly there to have a furry mascot (but he's just too damn quoteable, I can't help myself), and Russell I think needed a bit toning down, but that could be because of his voice actor. Apparently the kid is really that energetic and talkative in real life and that's why he was chosen to be the voice instead of his brother (who was the one who auditioned, Jordan was just tagging along).

My favorite Pixar film's WALL-E anyway. That film may have fallen into the same pitfalls, but it was just such an adorable film, beautifully animated, and had amazing sound design (because of Ben Burtt, what he used for EVE's laser gun just blows my mind). I had a professor who didn't like it because it was "too preachy" about its environmentalism, which is like a C-plot at best, and even to this day I think that's a nitpick since it was just a background detail and it was hardly ever brought up in conversation.

Finally, I'm sure there's a Tarzan to your Jane out there somewhere, though an internet cyber bullying forum is probably the wrong place

Spoiler: Literally me when reading that

or how the films feel more "boy oriented" (I just can't get out of my mind how a bunch of office guys did the films, much more than ever at Disney)

I think that's why Brave (back when it was called The Bear and the Bow) got so much attention because it was the first time a woman was pretty much in charge of a Pixar film--but then she became a co-director because of "creative differences". I don't think we ever got the full story to that. Chapman's probably still a bit huffy about it, especially since the title of "first woman to direct an animated film (all by herself)" went to Kung Fu Panda 2's director, Jennifer Yuh Nelson. (Chapman still was the first woman to win an Academy Award for Best Animated Feature, though.)

Having grown up surrounded by boys, I never noticed how "boy oriented" Pixar films are, but to be fair, American cartoons in general are typically geared towards boys because boys buy the most toys (action figures, cars, LEGOs, etc.) while girls got the dolls and make-up replicas and the cartoons to reflect that. Besides, "boy cartoons" are much more exciting than "girl cartoons". There's exceptions of course, but they're honestly few and far in between. Disney cartoons, for the most part, seemed to have been gender neutral in spite of it, which I think is important when it comes to making a cartoon. You're always going to need a demographic, but making that attempt to make it enjoyable for both boys and girls without it devolving into "battle of the sexes" is something that takes skill, not going to lie.

Everyone knew Chanticleer wasn't going to make it when one of the Disney brass said that no one would ever watch a film with a chicken as the protagonist.

Hindsight's a bitch.

 

[friedshrimp]

Well, I think the concept of Chanticleer eventually led to Robin Hood, which is a fun little movie on its own.

What do you guys think of Ralph 2? I see Disnerds drooling all over it, but I feel it's the same crap as the Emoji Movie and will age badly within a year.

 

[Jewelsmakerguy]

Well, I think the concept of Chanticleer eventually led to Robin Hood, which is a fun little movie on its own.

What do you guys think of Ralph 2? I see Disnerds drooling all over it, but I feel it's the same crap as the Emoji Movie and will age badly within a year.

Eh, I'll probably see WiR 2 as I saw the first in theaters, but my hopes aren't high given what we know about the film. I mean who knows how long that Disney segment's going to go on for. And them making Ralph come off as the villain while Venellope gets away with "going Turbo" because of her being bored of her home game are completely r.etarded.

Then again, what was I to expect from a guy who turned to shit between Zootopia and this film, or from a former Gizmondo writer?

 

[Trilby]

Count me in as another one who likes the romance of Robin Hood. It's simple, yeah, but it's also rather sweet. It kinda helps that the couple is already in love during the events of the movie, so we can imagine how long they've been together and such.

Count me in for RH too, though for me, it was due to having first watched it when I was 7 and could relate to Skippy (also turning 7 in the film).

As for King of the Elves, yeah, I reckon the reason why the movie was shelved was due to marketing. Disney would think a movie with an elderly black man as the lead wouldn't sell as many toys as a pretty princess or a plucky talking animal.

I wouldn't doubt that at all, given their reputation. I'm sure "The Black Cauldron" was already a difficult task to market the first time around.

 

[neverendingmidi]

I think Robin Hood is shoved to the back of the closet due to Furries getting their greasy fingers all over it. In the 80’s and early 90’s I don’t remember it being so shunned, but nowadays saying you like it is probably going to have people wondering what your fursona is.

 

[Muttnik]

Robin Hood is a lot of fun, even if the furry obsession with it is all kinds of gross. There's also a weird obsession with Oliver and Company, but I'm not that fond of that one so they can have it.