DOOM

The ability to get ammo and health back from enemies is NuDoom's biggest improvement over the original format.
Disagreeable. There's a significant number of players that prefer working within the limitations that a map maker enforces onto you to overcome a challenge and would argue that enemies basically being glorified resource pinatas simplifies the formula too much. I'd be inclined to agree with that as well, considering how Eternal lowered your maximum capacity on everything to compensate for the fact that you can replenish everything so easily. Urgency and skilled play get handicapped a bit in the face of this, especially given that every setpiece fight in Eternal usually ensures you're given infinitely respawning "fodder" enemies to replenish yourself while dancing around the main threats of an encounter.
 
If you're playing on pc with a keyboard and custom fov, it's doable.

God help you getting good with a fucking gamepad.
 
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I like Doom Eternal a lot, but I do see the reliance on the chainsaw and infinite respawning low level enemies to have you farm ammo as a failure of design. The fact you'll rarely use the chainsaw on bigger mobs and CAN'T use it on some is also a downgrade IMO. I also miss your normal punch doing damage because it makes the Doom Slayer feel like a weak pussy.
 
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Disagreeable. There's a significant number of players that prefer working within the limitations that a map maker enforces onto you to overcome a challenge and would argue that enemies basically being glorified resource pinatas simplifies the formula too much. I'd be inclined to agree with that as well, considering how Eternal lowered your maximum capacity on everything to compensate for the fact that you can replenish everything so easily. Urgency and skilled play get handicapped a bit in the face of this, especially given that every setpiece fight in Eternal usually ensures you're given infinitely respawning "fodder" enemies to replenish yourself while dancing around the main threats of an encounter.
When I go back to playing Doom 1-3, I see how that was a 2016/Eternal thing. Having messed around with SnapMap, the setpieces becoming arenas where you fight monsters until they stop spawning might have to do with engine limitations.

In SnapMap you can't have more than 12 demons being in the map at the same time with the AI functioning properly. It's weird because I'm making maps for Doom 3, and it didn't have that problem back then. And D3 is less than 3 GB whereas Doom 2016 and Eternal are both over 60 GB big.

Also
snapmap.jpg

I like Doom Eternal a lot, but I do see the reliance on the chainsaw and infinite respawning low level enemies to have you farm ammo as a failure of design. I also miss your normal punch doing damage because it makes the Doom Slayer feel like a weak pussy.
Doom 3's protagonist could cause zombies AND demons to flip into the air with his flashlight, and sometimes fists powered by average joe muscles.

Doom Eternal's superhuman DOOM SLAYER can't kill a skin & bones zombie by beating it to death.

Resource management in Eternal was a PITA, though usually as a result of the setpiece arenas rather than normal level progression.
 
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Disagreeable. There's a significant number of players that prefer working within the limitations that a map maker enforces onto you to overcome a challenge and would argue that enemies basically being glorified resource pinatas simplifies the formula too much. I'd be inclined to agree with that as well, considering how Eternal lowered your maximum capacity on everything to compensate for the fact that you can replenish everything so easily. Urgency and skilled play get handicapped a bit in the face of this, especially given that every setpiece fight in Eternal usually ensures you're given infinitely respawning "fodder" enemies to replenish yourself while dancing around the main threats of an encounter.
Not my diagnosis. In 2016 those were hardly problems; fodder did not spawn infinitely, nor did your chainsaw fuel, so you had to ration them as you dealt with heavier units. As for health drops, they were generally proportional to the amount of health you had. On lower difficulties they were way too generous, but on UV and higher unless you were under half health enemies would not drop enough health for you to count on it keeping you alive on its own. It absolutely can work, but it takes some tweaking of the numbers. The resource return added an interesting element of risk versus reward that can work incredibly well when executed properly. Ultrakill is a great example of this principle in action. 2016's main problem is that the numbers were too lenient on the middle and mid-low difficulty levels.

You can trace the problems with Doom Eternal back to the addition of the Meathook and Dash. Both were cool features that made mobility a lot more fun. However, they also made Doomguy way too OP, so they had to start heaping on new mechanics and new enemies with much more specific strengths and weaknesses that started to pigeonhole the playstyle of the game and make the increased difficulty, while legitimate, much less satisfying and less fun to replay compared to its predecessor. 2016 to me was the sweet spot. If they had just made 2016 with better graphics, minor tweaks, and more maps, it would have been much better long term. They tried to fix a formula that was simply not broken and ended up over-engineering it. They made fights longer and more drawn out, so they had to make the chainsaw and glory kills a regular part of the loop rather than something you resorted to in a pinch. That was where that mechanic went wrong.

I think there's merit to the way Doom Eternal does things. It has its own combat loop, it does have its own legitimate form of difficulty, and the gameplay can be really damn fun at times. It would be even more so if they split up the missions to be less insanely long. Its main flaw is that it's busy and chaotic to a fault, and I certainly don't find it as fun as I did a year ago. But I do still think the foundation it was built on, the Doom 2016 mechanics, was rock-solid. I can understand disliking it from a basis of preference but I think overall the glory kill/chainsaw mechanic worked and worked well when better constrained by finite resources.
 
All this sperging about Doom gameplay and here I am in my corner missing the lived in feel of Doom 3 maps. Seriously, not even Doom 2016 shiny could hold a candle to how Doom 3 did map design. Cramped and claustrophobic? Exactly the point. You may not like the gameplay loop of D3 (and it's fine, for a Doom game it's absurdly slow and only began to resemble its eponymous name towards the very end, which is far too late), but it fucking nailed an offworld base atmosphere.
 
Not my diagnosis. In 2016 those were hardly problems; fodder did not spawn infinitely, nor did your chainsaw fuel, so you had to ration them as you dealt with heavier units. As for health drops, they were generally proportional to the amount of health you had. On lower difficulties they were way too generous, but on UV and higher unless you were under half health enemies would not drop enough health for you to count on it keeping you alive on its own. It absolutely can work, but it takes some tweaking of the numbers. The resource return added an interesting element of risk versus reward that can work incredibly well when executed properly. Ultrakill is a great example of this principle in action. 2016's main problem is that the numbers were too lenient on the middle and mid-low difficulty levels.

You can trace the problems with Doom Eternal back to the addition of the Meathook and Dash. Both were cool features that made mobility a lot more fun. However, they also made Doomguy way too OP, so they had to start heaping on new mechanics and new enemies with much more specific strengths and weaknesses that started to pigeonhole the playstyle of the game and make the increased difficulty, while legitimate, much less satisfying and less fun to replay compared to its predecessor. 2016 to me was the sweet spot. If they had just made 2016 with better graphics, minor tweaks, and more maps, it would have been much better long term. They tried to fix a formula that was simply not broken and ended up over-engineering it. They made fights longer and more drawn out, so they had to make the chainsaw and glory kills a regular part of the loop rather than something you resorted to in a pinch. That was where that mechanic went wrong.

I think there's merit to the way Doom Eternal does things. It has its own combat loop, it does have its own legitimate form of difficulty, and the gameplay can be really damn fun at times. It would be even more so if they split up the missions to be less insanely long. Its main flaw is that it's busy and chaotic to a fault, and I certainly don't find it as fun as I did a year ago. But I do still think the foundation it was built on, the Doom 2016 mechanics, was rock-solid. I can understand disliking it from a basis of preference but I think overall the glory kill/chainsaw mechanic worked and worked well when better constrained by finite resources.

Everything you said in favor of 2016 is generally why a lot of people, including in the last page's worth of replies, have been saying that 2016 was better than Eternal.

Not long after I posted, I did actually think of Ultrakill as an example of what Eternal tries to do with its additional movement and resource replenishment options, but done a bit better and requiring a bit more skill. Hell, even down to having a hook to work with ever since the Greed layer update released.

Don't get me wrong, I also had a fair bit of fun with the way Doom Eternal did things as well... At least up until TAG 2 dropped, changed some stuff around, and the gameplay loop basically became cracked wide open by the community. And while there's still a certain degree of enjoyability to be had in actually practicing and mastering those tactics, it kind of loses its luster quickly when you find out there's an optimal and surefire way to handle every encounter. I suppose 2016 also suffers from this setback due to its own fairly static design as well (although I've never seen anybody complain about it in that game's case). Meanwhile, oldschool Doom has subtle bits of variety going for it considering how the game utilizes multiple layers of RNG and frame checks accounting for most facets of the gameplay loop, so any otherwise static encounters in a map can have small ways of playing out differently even when using the same exact tactics. Maybe that rocket ends up with a low damage roll? Maybe you eat a fireball that does a high damage roll? Maybe you just barely survive that Cyberdemon rocket or Archvile zap by the skin of your teeth? Maybe you accidentally skip a linedef that fails to trigger that monster closet or trap? Maybe cosmic rays somehow prevented waking up certain monsters? Maybe those faggot Lost Souls or Pinkies somewhere managed to clip out of the map? A lot of small things can end up causing bigger, interesting things in oldschool Doom compared to nuDoom's design limitations.
 
Dual meaning of stuff, I like that.
Also good to see a fellow Doom mapper. Oh, rather, you'd prefer to call yourself a level architect because doomworld kool kids ban the word "map" too it seems.
Wait what? Why is the word map being banned at Doomworld?
 
because of Map Attached Person abbreviation.
Hell if they are banning "CP" abbreviation that stranded for community projects since the fucking beginning of fan-base existing, why do you seem surprised at fucking all...
I never paid attention to Doomworld since I left the site... oh late 00s? Used to dabble in mapmaking back then.

Honestly surprised to hear it changed so much.
 
Don't get me wrong, I also had a fair bit of fun with the way Doom Eternal did things as well... At least up until TAG 2 dropped, changed some stuff around, and the gameplay loop basically became cracked wide open by the community. And while there's still a certain degree of enjoyability to be had in actually practicing and mastering those tactics, it kind of loses its luster quickly when you find out there's an optimal and surefire way to handle every encounter.

I think there's ways you could improve Eternal immensely, and most of them involve placing more limitations on the existing mechanics. Revert chainsaw fuel to the old system and tie flame belch to fuel, so now both are situationally useful resources to be managed. Glory kills get old and the counter system feels too much like artificial difficulty? Combine the two. Heavy enemies no longer enter glory kill state unless you use one of their counters and/or take out a weakpoint. Otherwise, put them back at their 2016 health levels; no more bullet sponges and the entire counter system can be engaged at the player's discretion as it should be in a combat sandbox. Either remove dash altogether and return the 2016 base movement speed or make dash more powerful with a much longer recharge. I'd rather not be cramping my pinky spamming it. Make meathook slowly charge by killing demons or something so it doesn't give a constant get out of danger free card and doesn't necessitate building enemies around that kind of OP movement.
 
The whole situation mirrors the Wolfenstein 'reboots' perfectly. You've got a universally praised game (2016/TNO) that completely blows up far more than anyone ever expected, as a result the developers actually have to make a sequel to the game but they never actually put much thought into the overall 'lore' in game 1 so they have to tack on an incredible amount of bullshit story in order to get everyone hyped for a future sequel..

The result? A game that's completely fine in its own way (I'd put Eternal as a better sequel than Wolfie 2) but because of the absolutely unrealistic levels of hype from the success of the first game it feels like a let down.

I think the point where I first thought "you know what, maybe this isn't that great" in Doom Eternal was the point where you first have to jump and swing using the poles. The movement felt so ridiculous because all of a sudden you're accounting for grabbing something with arms that you technically cannot see. At least the platforming/traversal in 2016 felt natural because jumping up to grab something makes sense, trying to jump towards a random pole to start swinging doesn't.
 
Dual meaning of stuff, I like that.
Also good to see a fellow Doom mapper. Oh, rather, you'd prefer to call yourself a level architect because doomworld kool kids ban the word "map" too it seems.
My presence on Doomworld was limited to me downloading .WADs in the early 2010's and making lo-quality Doom 2 maps, so I probably am not one of them. I do have a megwad in the works, but I'm procrastinating working on that alongside custom maps and mods for other games (including Doom 3).

The thing that propelled me to mod for Doom 3 in the first place was just my disappointment with most custom user content not exploiting that game to it's full potential. The interactive GUI, Carmack's Reversal, scripted moving objects, and the fact that game is easy to mod and edit once you know how helped propel me into learning how to make stuff for it myself.

But nah, everyone just wants to make a custom mod where you walk into a room, the lights go out, the doors to the exits lock, and you're ambushed by a few dozen cacodemons and pinkies in the complete dark unless you're playing the duct-tape mod (which you can't if it's a total conversion map). The Hallowed Mod was a good example of this where after entering past the front gate I ragequitted and deleted the mod.
The whole situation mirrors the Wolfenstein 'reboots' perfectly. You've got a universally praised game (2016/TNO) that completely blows up far more than anyone ever expected, as a result the developers actually have to make a sequel to the game but they never actually put much thought into the overall 'lore' in game 1 so they have to tack on an incredible amount of bullshit story in order to get everyone hyped for a future sequel..
There was lore in both 2016 and Doom 3, but immersing yourself in it was optional. I tend to actually like a fleshed out story in a game and felt Doom 3 was on the right track for the most part. I've ranted about what annoyed me about Doom 3's story here in the past, but immersing yourself in the story was optional. Once the invasion begins, the story is mostly told through PDA's, and the cutscenes are skippable.
The result? A game that's completely fine in its own way (I'd put Eternal as a better sequel than Wolfie 2) but because of the absolutely unrealistic levels of hype from the success of the first game it feels like a let down.

I think the point where I first thought "you know what, maybe this isn't that great" in Doom Eternal was the point where you first have to jump and swing using the poles. The movement felt so ridiculous because all of a sudden you're accounting for grabbing something with arms that you technically cannot see. At least the platforming/traversal in 2016 felt natural because jumping up to grab something makes sense, trying to jump towards a random pole to start swinging doesn't.
Again, Doom Eternal's inclusion of monsters and new mechanics weren't bad. The over-reliance of these new mechanics and the fact they gutted multiplayer (with or without bots) was inexcusable. Unless I missed the part where Doom Eternal was marketed to the elitist idiots who used to make up the Quake 3 CPMA crowd.
 
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The whole situation mirrors the Wolfenstein 'reboots' perfectly. You've got a universally praised game (2016/TNO) that completely blows up far more than anyone ever expected, as a result the developers actually have to make a sequel to the game but they never actually put much thought into the overall 'lore' in game 1 so they have to tack on an incredible amount of bullshit story in order to get everyone hyped for a future sequel..
And in both cases the "lore" is to the actual detriment of the game itself. New Colossus especially. Talk about Machine Game seriously misreading the room there. You'd have thought they'd have learned afterwards and made Youngbloods less shitty instead of doubling-down...
 
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Maybe it's because my first exposure to the doom games was with 2016 and then eternal, but I really liked the movement in eternal. The ability to just zoom around the map while learning to master quick swapping to git gud was some of the most fun i've had in the last like 2 years in terms of just straight up gameplay.
The whole situation mirrors the Wolfenstein 'reboots' perfectly. You've got a universally praised game (2016/TNO) that completely blows up far more than anyone ever expected, as a result the developers actually have to make a sequel to the game but they never actually put much thought into the overall 'lore' in game 1 so they have to tack on an incredible amount of bullshit story in order to get everyone hyped for a future sequel..

The result? A game that's completely fine in its own way (I'd put Eternal as a better sequel than Wolfie 2) but because of the absolutely unrealistic levels of hype from the success of the first game it feels like a let down.

I think the point where I first thought "you know what, maybe this isn't that great" in Doom Eternal was the point where you first have to jump and swing using the poles. The movement felt so ridiculous because all of a sudden you're accounting for grabbing something with arms that you technically cannot see. At least the platforming/traversal in 2016 felt natural because jumping up to grab something makes sense, trying to jump towards a random pole to start swinging doesn't.
I've never played any of the Wolfenstein games would you recommend TNO and it's sequel?
 
I'd HIGHLY recommend both TNO and it's PREQUEL (The Old Blood) but unless you want to see the story jump the shark in yet more horrifying ways it's better to pretend that the story ends with The New Order.
Oh, both those games are lovely. Nothing quite like going from completely catatonic from shrapnel in the head to full RAMPAGE MODE in about a minute. Its impressive to go from barely able to stand due to extended lack of movement to gunning down an entire building of Nazis in about 30 seconds. The whole TNO campaign can be summed up as American Man Too Angry at Nazis To Die.
 
Wolfenstein The New Order is, no joke, one of my all time favorite games of the 2010s, and my second favorite shooter of that decade after Doom 2016. A perfect mix of stealth and shooting, a well-told and mature story, and just the right amount of old-school mechanics mixed with modern ones. In many aspects, it could be seen as sort of a preview for the masterpiece that was the latter two years later, and still a game I often come back to just as much.

As for New Colossus, while I didn't think it was terrible per se, it definitely seemed to hone in on the wrong things of the original, instead of just building on what was already established. Too much open areas where shooting isn't as viable as stealth, said stealth also not as well-merged with said level design either, along with too many instances of standing around watching cutscenes that can't be skipped like the cinematics. Doesn't help either that the story can't seem to grasp if it wants to be serious or silly, and just meshes the two tones together in a way that often conflicts. Makes me wonder why some outlets gave it awards for the said narrative (though, given the political climate, maybe I can't be too shocked.

Oh yeah, and it has an ending theme that perfectly summarizes how messy the sequel turned out to be:


Again, still fun, for me at least, but definitely a case of one step forward, two steps back.
 
Oh, both those games are lovely. Nothing quite like going from completely catatonic from shrapnel in the head to full RAMPAGE MODE in about a minute. Its impressive to go from barely able to stand due to extended lack of movement to gunning down an entire building of Nazis in about 30 seconds. The whole TNO campaign can be summed up as American Man Too Angry at Nazis To Die.
Is the steam version DRM free or is it gog all the way for getting them?
 
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