Science Experiences of violence in the delivery room

HEALTH​

Experiences of violence in the delivery room​

During childbirth, many women feel they are victims of physical and psychological violence in the form of unannounced, painful grips on their abdomens and humiliation. Complaints are made about the lack of education. The "Kristeller maneuver" is also medically controversial.
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Between 82,000 and 86,000 children are born in Austria every year, 98.5 percent of them in a hospital. There are no surveys on how many women experience violence in the delivery room during childbirth. Subjective perception also plays a major role. However, women often describe great pain during the "Kristeller maneuver." This is when a doctor or midwife presses on the upper abdomen during the contraction to speed up the birth of the baby. Peter Husslein used to head Austria's largest maternity ward at Vienna General Hospital. His research influences how babies are born here: "We tried to find out with a study at the hospital whether the 'Kristeller hand hold' is basically useful, and there the answer was quite clear: No."

"Kristeller handle" has a tradition
Until the 1990s, the handgrip, which was developed as early as 1867 by German gynecologist Samuel Kristeller, was routinely used in nearly a quarter of all births under the motto "Faster with Kristeller." "There is no question that it is a physical assault for a woman if someone stands at the head of the bed and, without explaining anything, presses massively on the upper abdomen," Husslein told "Thema" and "ZIB Magazine." It could, of course, lead to birth injuries, because the head does not slowly but quickly stretch the soft tissues, the vagina and the vulva.

Binding conditions for application

The benefits are scientifically disputed and the risk of injury is high. In the United Kingdom and Norway, the "Kristeller hand grip" is not used, and in Germany, individual clinics have banned it, according to an article in "Die Hebamme. In 2020, the Austrian Society of Gynecology and Obstetrics regulated the handgrip in its "S3 Guideline on Vaginal Delivery at Term." "Fundal pressure" should only be considered in an emergency. Conditions: Consent including veto right of the woman and continuous communication.

Communication crucial
Psychotherapist Daniela Venturini cares for women who have suffered birth trauma. "If she (the woman giving birth, note) understands what exactly is being done, recognizes the meaningfulness and is self-determined, then she can also integrate great pain well: 'I'll push along a bit' is not enough as an explanation for the 'Kristeller hand grip'." The possible consequences of trauma are depression, anxiety disorders and post-traumatic stress disorder, he said. This also strongly influences the mother-child bond, which in turn influences the child's development. "Communication with the woman during childbirth determines whether she can handle it well, not the administration of painkillers," Venturini concludes from her study "Cesarean, vaginal and natural childbirth." She is able to quantify the vulnerability of childbearing women: "There is no time when women are more likely to experience a mental illness than during the pregnancy, birth, postpartum window. Eleven percent of all women develop depression, anxiety disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorders here for the first time in their lives."

Those affected speak of "ordeal"
Andrea Nikowitz gave birth to her daughter in October 2020 in Vienna, Veronika Konrad to her son six years ago. They experienced the births as a psychological and physical ordeal. Nikowitz told ORF that a midwife's sayings sent her into a panic. Konrad said she was scolded and a military tone prevailed. But both were particularly imprinted with a situation in the delivery room during the pushing contractions. "I was lying on my back like a bug, they were holding my legs and pushing from behind my head with full force on my belly. I screamed in pain, and afterwards my belly was all blue."

Serious consequences
The "Kristeller maneuver" was used on both Nikowitz and Konrad, according to their statements without education. Nikowitz was discharged after the birth in severe pain - a sacral fracture, it later turned out. Numerous doctor visits followed, and she suffered from panic attacks and anxiety. She saved herself by making music, taking photographs and following a mindfulness program for trauma management on the Internet. Konrad does osteopathic therapy with her son. She hasn't gotten over the birth trauma well: "Every birthday is an anniversary when everything comes up."

Clinics apologize
Andreas Brandstetter, head of the maternity department at St. Josef Hospital, where Nikowitz had given birth, told ORF: "Ms. Nikowitz was not picked up well emotionally by our midwife, and I am simply sorry for that. I can only apologize for that." The Hietzing Clinic, where Konrad had given birth to her son in 2017, also asked for an apology. Both clinics said there had been no alternative to the "Kristeller procedure" because the birth had to go quickly due to the child's poor heart tones.

Telling the experience of violence
On the homepage of Roses Revolution Austria there are numerous stories - most of them anonymous - of humiliation, unannounced, painful handholds and abuse of power by midwives and doctors during childbirth. Founder and midwife Margarete Wana noted that there is a lot of shame surrounding the issue. "'Just be happy you have a healthy baby!" women often hear. It's an important step for them to be believed for once." The elective midwife calls for better patient education, more staff in hospitals and, above all, targeted communication training in their education. And she wants to encourage women to share their experiences and also confront hospitals about them.

Contact points for those affected
The majority of Austria's maternity wards also offer psychological support. If the hospital staff does not point this out themselves, it is advisable for mothers and their companions to inquire about it. Clinics with psychiatric departments can also be points of contact. The clinics of the Vienna Health Network each have their own ombudsman's office. Legally, after traumatizing birth experiences, the interests of those affected are to be represented by patient ombudsmen. There is one in each federal state, and there are also other contact points. In Vienna, the Nanaya - Center for Pregnancy, Birth and Life with Children is a non-profit association that has also established itself as a contact point for help in crises. For pregnant women with a previous stress - be it from a past difficult birth or from another social, psychological or medical crisis - there is the possibility of free prenatal care in Vienna by a midwife from the Midwife Center Vienna as part of the pilot project. The UNUM Institute is a trauma and pain competence center that is currently seeking to combine offers of help for stressful pregnancies and births from a wide variety of fields into an Austria-wide network called "TrauBe" (for trauma care) in all provinces. "TrauBe" is only in the process of being established, contact can be made by mail to office@unum.institute. There is the possibility of contacting psychotherapists with a focus on pregnancy and birth. However, the costs are to be borne by the patients themselves, except for the amounts subsidized by the respective health insurance.​

Source (German)
 
Everyone is together on the subject of hospitals treating pregnant women like shit yet a single mild comment about how women typically handle trauma and are encouraged to sets you off on an unironic MATI rant about how male posters in this thread are all mentally ill incels.
do i even need to say anything more?
she's a mindfucked infanticide fetishist. should have seen the gusto with which she defended mushing around babies in the womb with a hand mixer and shop-vacing sludge out. Total bugman degenerate, worse than chinks at the guangdong dog meat festival

*It's not so much they lie, their experience of reality seems to be very malliable, they will reconstruct their experiences to a desired outcome. Which in modern women is unending sympathy and attention/victimhood.
see also their tales of "sexual harassment/assault"
Valid point of view, but in this case it's a pretty clear cut that there is widespread abuse and medical practitioners need to join a minecraft server. TBH knowing what i know now if some piece of shit hospital worker looks at someone i care about the wrong way they're gonna experience a lunchtime rowdy™.
 
The manoeuvre is no longer used in many countries. Women are beginning, thankfully, to say ‘no’ amd demand more evidence based techniques, and suing the shit out of people helps too, Forceps thankfully are no longer routinely used in the uk, but that’s very recent and they are still used for some stuff.
Oh here’s another one - episiotomies. So routinely, with no reason to these were used up to very recently. What’s an episiotomy you ask? It’s enlarging the vaginal opening with a scalpel with a usually diagonal cut through the perineum (just as nature intended rite?) the idea was ‘it prevents tearing.’ Except it actually doesn’t, and tearing is more likely to be superficial in most cases and more easily managed if you don’t take a scalpel to the area. Actually they used to do them with scissors, not a scalpel, and with no anaesthetic whatsoever. Just snip! Stop crying you stupid woman. And no consent either. When I say used, I mean up until a few years ago, not 1950s. There was a case recently where an obstetrician pulled a baby’s head off during birth - she was cleared to return to work. https://archive.is/J0BzT
There’s a balance to be struck, too much hippy woo kills people and so does medicalising every little thing. The best way is probably like the scandi countries do things - you only see a midwife, no doctors unless there’s a medical issue. Most women give birth in midwife units but those units are one double door set away from a full surgical suite and NICU.


 
The manoeuvre is no longer used in many countries. Women are beginning, thankfully, to say ‘no’ amd demand more evidence based techniques, and suing the shit out of people helps too, Forceps thankfully are no longer routinely used in the uk, but that’s very recent and they are still used for some stuff.
Oh here’s another one - episiotomies. So routinely, with no reason to these were used up to very recently. What’s an episiotomy you ask? It’s enlarging the vaginal opening with a scalpel with a usually diagonal cut through the perineum (just as nature intended rite?) the idea was ‘it prevents tearing.’ Except it actually doesn’t, and tearing is more likely to be superficial in most cases and more easily managed if you don’t take a scalpel to the area. Actually they used to do them with scissors, not a scalpel, and with no anaesthetic whatsoever. Just snip! Stop crying you stupid woman. And no consent either. When I say used, I mean up until a few years ago, not 1950s. There was a case recently where an obstetrician pulled a baby’s head off during birth - she was cleared to return to work. https://archive.is/J0BzT
There’s a balance to be struck, too much hippy woo kills people and so does medicalising every little thing. The best way is probably like the scandi countries do things - you only see a midwife, no doctors unless there’s a medical issue. Most women give birth in midwife units but those units are one double door set away from a full surgical suite and NICU.

Fucking horrifying. Really lets just mutilate people at their most vulnerable, medical science ladies and gents. Lets not pretend it's gotten much better now.
 
There was a case recently where an obstetrician pulled a baby’s head off during birth - she was cleared to return to work.
How in the hell?

I'm shocked you could reasonably exert enough force to decapitate an infant just from a logistical perspective, much less actually have it happen in a medical setting.
 
How in the hell?

I'm shocked you could reasonably exert enough force to decapitate an infant just from a logistical perspective, much less actually have it happen in a medical setting.
brown medical professional, all you need to know.

I second everything @Otterly has said and I would add my own stories, but I don't want to talk about it, really. It's a nice day today.
Please share if/when you feel up to it. I want to further radicalize myself on this topic (not even joking).
 
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Forceps thankfully are no longer routinely used in the uk, but that’s very recent and they are still used for some stuff.
That's good. I was a forceps baby (big head, lots of trouble; story of my life) and I remember having nightmares for years about having my head crushed or tugged when I was young. Mum's experience wasn't any better, from what she told me of the experience. She threw an absolute rage fit when they tried to use them on my brother.

brown medical professional, all you need to know.
I have to disagree. My life was saved by an indian doctor. That said, her husband was a useless twat, so maybe she's an outlier.
 
I have to disagree. My life was saved by an indian doctor. That said, her husband was a useless twat, so maybe she's an outlier.
No i remember this specific case. It was some brown woman that ended up getting a slap on the wrist.


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Have some rage fuel:

It was alleged that tragedy hit when the 41-year-old doctor called for the patient to push while herself applying traction to the baby’s legs.

The movement caused the infant’s legs, arms and torso to become detached leaving the head still in his mother’s womb.

Two other doctors consequently carried out a C-section on the woman to remove the infant’s head. It was ‘’reattached’’ to his body so his mother could hold him before she said goodbye. It is claimed the mother was not even in established labour at the time.

TRUST THE SCIENCE!!! ™
 
I have to disagree. My life was saved by an indian doctor. That said, her husband was a useless twat, so maybe she's an outlier.
The doctor that ripped the baby's head off during delivery was a brown shitworlder.

No i remember this specific case. It was some brown woman that ended up getting a slap on the wrist.


View attachment 5066703

Have some rage fuel:
View attachment 5066709
Didn't she originally try to hide the fact that she decapitated the child as well and blame the incident on a "birth injury" that she wasn't at fault for? Could be remembering wrong but the entire incident was a disaster
 
That's good. I was a forceps baby (big head, lots of trouble; story of my life) and I remember having nightmares for years about having my head crushed or tugged when I was young. Mum's experience wasn't any better, from what she told me of the experience. She threw an absolute rage fit when they tried to use them on my brother.


I have to disagree. My life was saved by an indian doctor. That said, her husband was a useless twat, so maybe she's an outlier.
No i remember this specific case. It was some brown woman that ended up getting a slap on the wrist.


View attachment 5066703

Have some rage fuel:



TRUST THE SCIENCE!!! ™
what the actual fuck
 
No i remember this specific case. It was some brown woman that ended up getting a slap on the wrist.
My point was that the doctor being brown isn't necessarily where the problem originates. It's the culture of the NHS itself that encourages the sort of behaviour she displayed.
 
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A lot of UK antenatal classes are very focused on natural birth, with some either implicit or explicit discouragement to seek pain relief. My eldest was born 10 years ago and the antenatal classes my husband and I attended provided very little information or reassurance on medical interventions or C section. So when my firstborn required a forceps delivery after 60 hours of labour I wasn’t exactly mentally prepared for it.

A broken tailbone is very painful. But it isn’t the same as being in slowly building agony for sometimes days, not being allowed to eat or drink, being unable to sleep, having strangers shove their hands/ instruments up your vagina, and being constantly afraid that you and/ or your baby is going to die. Your pain relief options are limited because of the risk to the baby/ hospital miserliness.

Another key difference between breaking a tailbone and having a baby is the former doesn’t involve you being suddenly in possession of a tiny human being you need to care for 24/7 (ideally using your body to feed it, which is a lot harder and more painful than it looks) and being given very little time and support to recover before you’re booted out of the hospital with a vagina that looks like Heath Ledger’s joker.
 
How in the hell?

I'm shocked you could reasonably exert enough force to decapitate an infant just from a logistical perspective, much less actually have it happen in a medical setting.
The baby was breech, so coming out bum or feet first, and it was 25 weeks so delicate. She should have gone immediately to a c section. She didn’t, and one reason for that is hospitals are cracking down on themZ for safety? No of course not. For cost. Someone’s said ‘c section rates too high’ and instead of working at the front end to prevent complications they just deny women who need them and shrug when they are horribly injured. There’s a point of getting down and out the birth canal where it’s too late to do a sectio , and she let it get to that point, Instead, she pulled, hard enough to decapitate.
That’s hard, you are thinking. Yes, that’s the kind of force they use. Getting a stuck baby out is excruciating and I use that term literally. The force they use is extreme. The manoeuvre in the OP is extreme force. An emergency c section is extreme force, it’s literally cut through layers fast, one on each side to hold you open and haul hard. It is extremely traumatic because you’re awake and exhausted, and incredibly vulnerable. Often you have no pain relief either becasue there is no time
That poor woman. Cannot begin to imagine her suffering.
Ignore the massive spike in sexual violations that nurses and patients are subject to.
Oh did you see this article? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...0-sex-attacks-hospitals-just-three-years.html
Archive: https://archive.is/28vnQ
Modern women lie
They do, it’s a plague, but I can tell you hand on heart that obstetric horror is absolutely real. All this fuss about the metoo stuff and completely ignoring the real nasty stuff.
 
what the actual fuck
Yeah, the article is horrifying

“There were two doctors between my legs, one on my right hand side holding my hand and there were other people there too. I was examined by a doctor but she didn’t say anything to me. They were checking for the baby’s heartbeat and it had plummeted and that’s when I was told it was going to come out.

“I remember them saying I was two to three centimetres dilated and I was told to push. Nobody said I was not having a c-section and doing something else instead. Whilst this was going on I was in pain.

“The only pain relief I was given was a spray on my tongue. I was told it was meant to loosen my cervix but I was not given gas and air – I was in pain. I had the doctors putting their hands inside me and I had them pushing on my stomach and then pulling me down.

“I tried to get off the bed but they pulled me back three times and just said they had to get the baby out. They twice tried to cut my cervix and nobody told me they were going to do it. There was no anaesthetic. I said to them ‘it doesn’t feel right, stop it, what’s going on, I don’t want to do it’ but nobody responded to me in any way.

“Afterwards I was in a cubicle with a curtain around me and the sister came over to me and told me my son had passed away. I didn’t know the details but Dr Laxman came to see me and the baby’s father was there. Dr Laxman sat on the side of my bed and she said how sorry she was for what happened but I didn’t know the full extent of what happened at that point.

“I just said ‘it’s alright, these things happen, I forgive you.’ She went away but I started screaming when I found out the full extent – I was just crying. I was upset because of the severity of his injury.

“I would never use the word stillborn, he was not stillborn he was decapitated. I was pregnant, my first pregnancy I wasn’t sure what was going on and I was told it was the safest place possible. Nobody explained the plan or risks associated. It was like disorganised chaos and I was scared.’’

My point was that the doctor being brown isn't necessarily where the problem originates. It's the culture of the NHS itself that encourages the sort of behaviour she displayed.
Your country is spiraling the shitter precisely because of attitudes such as yours. Some of them are great people, sure, but regression to the mean is immutable and you're letting every 80iq ganges swimmer in. There's no way you'll convince me that this butcher being a vastly different ethnicity than her patients didn't contribute to her negligence.


nore the massive spike in sexual violations that nurses and patients are subject to

part n parcel.png
Part & Parcel™ m80s. Diversity is Our Greatest Strength™
 
Haunted. Truly.

I didn't, but during my shadowing the nurses were incredibly casual with how handsy the patients, doctors, etc all are. No one gives a shit and no one does anything. I volunteer at a homeless shelter and it's the same there. A girl gets her tits grabbed by some crack addled schizo, or he rubs his genitals on her while she's handing out food; we call the police, they say "Five to six hours, sorry, ask them to leave. Busy night." It's just a systemic lack of giving a fuck, on all levels. From top to bottom. It enrages me to the point of actually getting a headache, because you can't even scream at these people, or insult them; they just stare back at you like someone switched off the light in their heads.

I work in academia and I can feel that same 'Don't care anymore' attitude settling in with me - it's why I'm leaving this year - when I get students that fundamentally cannot grasp basic concepts and should not be there. I'm told 'Just give them 40% and shuffle them along, it's coursework.' Country wide burnout.

EDIT: The worst is A&E work, while I was there just handing out tea, and asking peoples details, there was some guy literally screeching like he was dying on the floor because he was cold turkey off something; then next to him was a woman and her child, then about 5-6 old people with various stages of dementia also shouting. It was unironically some demonic shit. I did TA CMT training; and the sims of battlefield medicine and triage honestly were about the same level of utter pandemonium as friday night A&E are. The only thing missing was some cunt firing off blanks every fifteen seconds.
 
It's just a systemic lack of giving a fuck, on all levels. From top to bottom.
Lack of community. Previously you’d know the local nurses and they’d have to face you in the community. They were highly respected, but also far more professional
I work in academia and I can feel that same 'Don't care anymore' attitude settling in with me - it's why I'm leaving this year -
You’re a genetics person aren’t you? DM me if you want to chat about moving to industry, it has all its own bullshit but it’s better than academia
 
I thought this was going to be about dads refusing to let their wives get epidurals and fighting with staff, or mom giving birth to a kid that definitely isn't the fathers, and dad's not too pleased.
Or pregnant women being murdered by their partners. Or maternal mortality in the US (worst in the developed world).

That said giving birth is inherently pretty brutal.
 
They do, it’s a plague, but I can tell you hand on heart that obstetric horror is absolutely real. All this fuss about the metoo stuff and completely ignoring the real nasty stuff.
Probably PLing but this was filmed on the maternity ward I was born in a few weeks before I was delievered by cesarean, by the very doctor in this film.
I'm always astonished watching it, the way he speaks to the patients and behaves the whole thing is surreal from a completely different era. Hospital looks like something out of born on the 4th of july too.


These so many mad David Brent moments in it; " .... and here she is looking terrific..." camera pans across to woman recovering from a hysterectomy.
Being brought into the world by such a based 80s misogynist must have rubbed off on me.
 
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