Science Experiences of violence in the delivery room

HEALTH​

Experiences of violence in the delivery room​

During childbirth, many women feel they are victims of physical and psychological violence in the form of unannounced, painful grips on their abdomens and humiliation. Complaints are made about the lack of education. The "Kristeller maneuver" is also medically controversial.
Online since today, 20.15 clock

Between 82,000 and 86,000 children are born in Austria every year, 98.5 percent of them in a hospital. There are no surveys on how many women experience violence in the delivery room during childbirth. Subjective perception also plays a major role. However, women often describe great pain during the "Kristeller maneuver." This is when a doctor or midwife presses on the upper abdomen during the contraction to speed up the birth of the baby. Peter Husslein used to head Austria's largest maternity ward at Vienna General Hospital. His research influences how babies are born here: "We tried to find out with a study at the hospital whether the 'Kristeller hand hold' is basically useful, and there the answer was quite clear: No."

"Kristeller handle" has a tradition
Until the 1990s, the handgrip, which was developed as early as 1867 by German gynecologist Samuel Kristeller, was routinely used in nearly a quarter of all births under the motto "Faster with Kristeller." "There is no question that it is a physical assault for a woman if someone stands at the head of the bed and, without explaining anything, presses massively on the upper abdomen," Husslein told "Thema" and "ZIB Magazine." It could, of course, lead to birth injuries, because the head does not slowly but quickly stretch the soft tissues, the vagina and the vulva.

Binding conditions for application

The benefits are scientifically disputed and the risk of injury is high. In the United Kingdom and Norway, the "Kristeller hand grip" is not used, and in Germany, individual clinics have banned it, according to an article in "Die Hebamme. In 2020, the Austrian Society of Gynecology and Obstetrics regulated the handgrip in its "S3 Guideline on Vaginal Delivery at Term." "Fundal pressure" should only be considered in an emergency. Conditions: Consent including veto right of the woman and continuous communication.

Communication crucial
Psychotherapist Daniela Venturini cares for women who have suffered birth trauma. "If she (the woman giving birth, note) understands what exactly is being done, recognizes the meaningfulness and is self-determined, then she can also integrate great pain well: 'I'll push along a bit' is not enough as an explanation for the 'Kristeller hand grip'." The possible consequences of trauma are depression, anxiety disorders and post-traumatic stress disorder, he said. This also strongly influences the mother-child bond, which in turn influences the child's development. "Communication with the woman during childbirth determines whether she can handle it well, not the administration of painkillers," Venturini concludes from her study "Cesarean, vaginal and natural childbirth." She is able to quantify the vulnerability of childbearing women: "There is no time when women are more likely to experience a mental illness than during the pregnancy, birth, postpartum window. Eleven percent of all women develop depression, anxiety disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorders here for the first time in their lives."

Those affected speak of "ordeal"
Andrea Nikowitz gave birth to her daughter in October 2020 in Vienna, Veronika Konrad to her son six years ago. They experienced the births as a psychological and physical ordeal. Nikowitz told ORF that a midwife's sayings sent her into a panic. Konrad said she was scolded and a military tone prevailed. But both were particularly imprinted with a situation in the delivery room during the pushing contractions. "I was lying on my back like a bug, they were holding my legs and pushing from behind my head with full force on my belly. I screamed in pain, and afterwards my belly was all blue."

Serious consequences
The "Kristeller maneuver" was used on both Nikowitz and Konrad, according to their statements without education. Nikowitz was discharged after the birth in severe pain - a sacral fracture, it later turned out. Numerous doctor visits followed, and she suffered from panic attacks and anxiety. She saved herself by making music, taking photographs and following a mindfulness program for trauma management on the Internet. Konrad does osteopathic therapy with her son. She hasn't gotten over the birth trauma well: "Every birthday is an anniversary when everything comes up."

Clinics apologize
Andreas Brandstetter, head of the maternity department at St. Josef Hospital, where Nikowitz had given birth, told ORF: "Ms. Nikowitz was not picked up well emotionally by our midwife, and I am simply sorry for that. I can only apologize for that." The Hietzing Clinic, where Konrad had given birth to her son in 2017, also asked for an apology. Both clinics said there had been no alternative to the "Kristeller procedure" because the birth had to go quickly due to the child's poor heart tones.

Telling the experience of violence
On the homepage of Roses Revolution Austria there are numerous stories - most of them anonymous - of humiliation, unannounced, painful handholds and abuse of power by midwives and doctors during childbirth. Founder and midwife Margarete Wana noted that there is a lot of shame surrounding the issue. "'Just be happy you have a healthy baby!" women often hear. It's an important step for them to be believed for once." The elective midwife calls for better patient education, more staff in hospitals and, above all, targeted communication training in their education. And she wants to encourage women to share their experiences and also confront hospitals about them.

Contact points for those affected
The majority of Austria's maternity wards also offer psychological support. If the hospital staff does not point this out themselves, it is advisable for mothers and their companions to inquire about it. Clinics with psychiatric departments can also be points of contact. The clinics of the Vienna Health Network each have their own ombudsman's office. Legally, after traumatizing birth experiences, the interests of those affected are to be represented by patient ombudsmen. There is one in each federal state, and there are also other contact points. In Vienna, the Nanaya - Center for Pregnancy, Birth and Life with Children is a non-profit association that has also established itself as a contact point for help in crises. For pregnant women with a previous stress - be it from a past difficult birth or from another social, psychological or medical crisis - there is the possibility of free prenatal care in Vienna by a midwife from the Midwife Center Vienna as part of the pilot project. The UNUM Institute is a trauma and pain competence center that is currently seeking to combine offers of help for stressful pregnancies and births from a wide variety of fields into an Austria-wide network called "TrauBe" (for trauma care) in all provinces. "TrauBe" is only in the process of being established, contact can be made by mail to office@unum.institute. There is the possibility of contacting psychotherapists with a focus on pregnancy and birth. However, the costs are to be borne by the patients themselves, except for the amounts subsidized by the respective health insurance.​

Source (German)
 
One more about this brown woman.


DINDU.png

SHE DINDU NUFFIN YOU GUISE

Patient A, who gave evidence while holding two teddy bears, said it was her first pregnancy. 'When I was taken to the labour suite nobody told me what was happening,' she said. 'I was told to push. I was in pain.

'They twice tried to cut my cervix and nobody told me they were going to do it. There was no anaesthetic. I said to them, 'It doesn't feel right, stop it, I don't want to do it', but nobody responded.'

I'm sure this pattern of negligence is just random happenstance. Apparently the baby hole was 2cm wide and this brown lady didnt care enough to think maybe it won't work. I mean who gives a shit, just a white rayciss bitch and her rayciss ass baby gnomesane


Bonus: LMAO
gary the cuck.png

MUH BUDGET CUTS

no moneys.png
 
Last edited:
Probably PLing but this was filmed on the maternity ward I was born in a few weeks before I was delievered by cesarean, by the very doctor in this film.
I'm always astonished watching it, the way he speaks to the patients and behaves the whole thing is surreal from a completely different era. Hospital looks like something out of born on the 4th of july too.


These so many mad David Brent moments in it; " .... and here she is looking terrific..." camera pans across to woman recovering from a hysterectomy.
Being brought into the world by such a based 80s misogynist must have rubbed off on me.
Love the brown curtains, lol. But… Look how clean everything is. White coats sparkling, floors shiny, everything is so incredibly clean. I visited someone from my lab when she was in hospital with a punctured lung, and the drain jar was sat in a pile of dust bunnies. There was dried blood that wasn’t hers on the bed frame. Stained sheets (not by her.) It was so disgusting we went back to the lab and brought a load of ethanol and tork roll and nuked the lot of it. Revolting.
Nobody gives a shit any more, and the people who do are hounded out.
 
Modern women lie* about so much of their 'life experiences' I've stopped believing pretty much everything they complain about these days especially shit like this. From an evolutionary standpoint a massively traumatic and painful childbirth makes absolutly no sense. I've seen monkeys give birth with barely a whimper as it would give away the location of the troop to predators.

I am a childbirth pain denier. chad.jpg

*It's not so much they lie, their experience of reality seems to be very malliable, they will reconstruct their experiences to a desired outcome. Which in modern women is unending sympathy and attention/victimhood.
see also their tales of "sexual harassment/assault"

Another dumb fag with a stupid name and stupid avatar. Beating women lmao, we all know you couldn't beat up a mouse in a wheelchair.
 
*It's not so much they lie, their experience of reality seems to be very malliable, they will reconstruct their experiences to a desired outcome. Which in modern women is unending sympathy and attention/victimhood.
see also their tales of "sexual harassment/assault"
It's more that women experience reality differently than men. Biology, socialization, there's a list of things that contribute to it. Example: we've done studies that allow men and women to observe an interaction between a hypothetical manager and an employee. With (un)surprising consistency, both men and women will look at the same scenario with the same tone, same words, and they'll rate the interaction with the male employee as "normal", but the female employee as "hostile and sexist". It's a source of a lot of friction between the sexes; men can look at a situation and go, "yep that's normal, nothing to complain about", while women will go "look at this thing that's targeting women! Why is nobody talking about this?". The pot has been stirred even more with the feminist movement. The definition of a "real" vs "fake" issue is blurry, and I don't think men or women are necessarily incorrect in their definition of what constitutes a problem- the larger issue I see as a man is that our feminism-infected society thinks the male version of what constitutes a problem is "wrong", that the way males process their emotions is "wrong", instead of just being the way males do it.
 
When we had both of our kids, the entire hospital staff treated us well. They made sure my wife was comfortable and made sure we were both always in the loop with what they were doing. Since then, covid hit and everyone of those compassionate and semi-competent staff members has retired or moved to s different place. Many of them were near retiring age, so I'm sure they said fuck it and dipped so they didn't have to deal with that, but I'm willing to bet covid killed any enjoyment any of them had for their job. Now that hospital has turned into complete shit, and every time it gets mentioned online, it's nothing but horror stories. While this article seems highly hyperbolic, I definitely can believe some of these experiences. Even before covid, I've heard of hospitals treating pregnant women like complete shit.
 
The baby was breech, so coming out bum or feet first, and it was 25 weeks so delicate. She should have gone immediately to a c section. She didn’t, and one reason for that is hospitals are cracking down on themZ for safety? No of course not. For cost. Someone’s said ‘c section rates too high’ and instead of working at the front end to prevent complications they just deny women who need them and shrug when they are horribly injured.
Private clinics prefer c sections because they pay more, while public hospitals reduce them because they cost too much... then the private suggest women that sneezing is enough to get a c section, and public denies them even if your baby is in risk to be beheaded.

Clown world indeed.
 
in the Dark Ages they didn't understand sanitation, though. that's why so many births failed.
They understood it in a way. They knew filth led to disease and sickness, which is why they buried bodies and tried to quarantine the sick. The problem was that they didn't understand microorganisms. The fact that there were tiny bugs that you couldn't see that could make a person sick or infected was a bit beyond humanity's scope at that time.
 
I think C-sections are rising in the US mainly because of 2 things: More widespread fetal monitoring and a lot of preexisting health factors. These are based on my experiences working in a maternity ward in a non-profit hospital.

Most hospitals in the US use continuous fetal monitoring(CFM) as soon as the Mother hits the Maternity Ward. It's essentially a real basic system that just measures the baby's heart rate and you can check for any signs that the birth is going south. The problem is that if there is any sign of the birth having difficulty, the mom gets a c section because so many hospitals are allergic to any lawsuits. Most of these patterns are indeterminate to telling if the baby is in trouble, so hospitals try to stay on the safe side of a lawsuit. There's been a fair amount of research showing that since CFM has become widespread the amount of c sections have risen.

The second is that the majority of women taken back for a c sections were obese, in their 30s, and usually had diabetes and gestational hypertension. All of these mean you're probably going to have a difficult birth. There's been a lot of data showing the average birth age is 29 in the US, and the Amerifat meme definately has a grain of truth in it.
 
I got my legs crushed and one of em amputated. I didn't squeal or cry, because that would've stressed out everyone around me, I joked about it whilst going into shock. I have nothing but disdain for women who cry about childbirth.

Edit- I'm a gay retard who thought the article was women bitching about childbirth, not medical malpractice. I fucking hate doctors, love nurses but they're fuckin sweeties.
 
Last edited:
He actually said to me that it shocked him and changed his mind on how women can be treated - and most of the worst offenders were other women.
This does not surprise me. Some women enjoy tearing other women down and would enjoy the power over a vulnerable person. Others are probably old, jealous cunts with rotten eggs.
separated by a thin curtain from others who had entire families in eating stinky takeaways one bloke kept peeping through her curtain, men using the toilets meant for women etc.
That must be lovely for the nausea. I feel for you, as a person in another country with socialized medicine. Only being separated by a thin curtain can expose people to more grossness (people farting, BO you cannot escape from) and protection from creepy men have been compromised by trannies. Not all men are creeps, obviously, but it's better to have strict sex segregation for protection from the ones that are.
The shared washrooms with people who just got genital injuries is a great way to spread who knows what. Just love being nauseous as fuck from anesthesia and some demented patient just got shit everywhere in the only shared bathroom.
oh and no painkillers either.
This is a thing even in vet care now. My dog dying of aggressive nasal cancer can only get gabapentin plus the CBD I bought her. I feel like pets deserve hospice care like anyone else.
Modern women lie* about so much of their 'life experiences' I've stopped believing pretty much everything they complain about these days especially shit like this. From an evolutionary standpoint a massively traumatic and painful childbirth makes absolutly no sense. I've seen monkeys give birth with barely a whimper as it would give away the location of the troop to predators.

I am a childbirth pain denier. chad.jpg

*It's not so much they lie, their experience of reality seems to be very malliable, they will reconstruct their experiences to a desired outcome. Which in modern women is unending sympathy and attention/victimhood.
see also their tales of "sexual harassment/assault"
I support your right to misogyny but that is just pseudoscientific.
there was some guy literally screeching like he was dying on the floor because he was cold turkey off something; then next to him was a woman and her child, then about 5-6 old people with various stages of dementia also shouting. It was unironically some demonic shit.
We need to stop using hospitals as memory care centers. People with dementia are worse than normies who've never dealt with it could ever understand. Euthanasia is truly kinder than that fate.
 
Last edited:
My point was that the doctor being brown isn't necessarily where the problem originates. It's the culture of the NHS itself that encourages the sort of behaviour she displayed.
Its the environment of modern medicine in general. iirc 200-300k people die annually in the US from medical malpractice.

IMO its a case of extreme appeal to authority combined with pants on head retarded liberal policies creating a horror show. These people know almost no one is going to question them or be able to navigate their system so doctors and medical staff can get away with almost anything. Combine that will being endlessly slammed with drug ODs, illegals, and general degenerates who clog up the system why should the medical types care? Zero reason for medical staff not to treat well to do patients like the idiot junkies trying to grift some drugs out of the ER.
 
I got my legs crushed and one of em amputated. I didn't squeal or cry, because that would've stressed out everyone around me, I joked about it whilst going into shock. I have nothing but disdain for women who cry about childbirth.

Edit- I'm a gay retard who thought the article was women bitching about childbirth, not medical malpractice. I fucking hate doctors, love nurses but they're fuckin sweeties.
You were in shock.

When pregnant/postpartum women have a massive hemorrhage and start bleeding out they go into shock too and tend to be just as stoic.

But it's an animal thing, not a man or woman thing. Everyone sobers up and tries to lie still and hold it together when they see the angels descending. Even a beagle or a stray cat does.
 
Shared postnatal wards with no - absolutely no - facility for the babies to be taken away from bedside so any of you can sleep is a special type of NHS maternity care hell. There are eight of you in the ward, some of you are trying to breastfeed, some of you have literally just been wheeled up from surgery, and every time one of the babies cry, they all start. There was a point where I'd been up for 72 hours with major surgery in the middle and a trip through ICU, blood still getting transfused in, and still no one would take my baby for even an hour to try and let me sleep. And because I was so drowsy and no one would take the baby, I couldn't get any more pain relief than paracetamol. Pro tip: two paracetamol do not cut it for pain relief when you had emergency abdo surgery.

Ach. I had kids. I did it without pain relief the first twice because fetal heart rate not good, yada yada. It hurts a lot, the pain is drastically reduced once kid is out, you get a lot of stitches and sitting down isn't nice for a while. I was readmitted both times after discharge the first twice, but it's not comparable to recovering from a section. I accept mine was botched and my recovery was unusually difficult, but that is seriously a bullshit experience.

Something that was explained to me afterwards was that the classic trauma response is more common in people who felt a loss of control during the experience, rather than some assessment of how "objectively bad" it was. Emergency section, you are paralysed from the waist down, you can't see what's going on, and understandably the medics are focused on what they are doing so no one responds to anything you say or ask. When it starts to go wrong, you can tell, but you have absolutely no control or input in the situation, and your birth partner is sent out of the room. I haemorrhaged massively, went into shock, lost consciousness, all that good business, and regained consciousness some time later in ICU, alone, no birth partner, no staff in sight. Freezing cold, tubes everywhere (mostly blood products, oxygen), and absolutely no sign of any baby anywhere. No plastic crib, no extra wrist bracelet on me, no nothing. I hadn't been conscious for the birth. My immediate panicked conclusion was that baby had died.

Kiwi frens, that wasn't the most euphoric moment of my life. It was definitely a shit experience. I can honestly say it wasn't the fucked up medical care which nearly offed me that put me in my feels afterwards, it was how bloody scared I was around the whole fucking thing. I'm disinclined to judge people who say, "Christ that hurt like hell and I was terrified. I don't fancy doing that again." There are things (like letting birth partners stay, being willing to take babies away to let you get a little sleep, helping section patients mobilise after surgery) that could be done in the UK to make it less shitty, but they aren't done. The shared postnatal wards aren't built into the 'new' hospitals; they need to be phased out in the older ones because that is some enormous bullshit. You really just want to go home so someone will give you a cup of tea and you aren't queuing for the toilet and you can finally get a wash and a sleep.

tl;dr sometimes maternity care is a bit suboptimal and people feel upset about it afterwards, this is reasonable
 
I think C-sections are rising in the US mainly because of 2 things: More widespread fetal monitoring and a lot of preexisting health factors. These are based on my experiences working in a maternity ward in a non-profit hospital.

Most hospitals in the US use continuous fetal monitoring(CFM) as soon as the Mother hits the Maternity Ward. It's essentially a real basic system that just measures the baby's heart rate and you can check for any signs that the birth is going south. The problem is that if there is any sign of the birth having difficulty, the mom gets a c section because so many hospitals are allergic to any lawsuits. Most of these patterns are indeterminate to telling if the baby is in trouble, so hospitals try to stay on the safe side of a lawsuit. There's been a fair amount of research showing that since CFM has become widespread the amount of c sections have risen.

The second is that the majority of women taken back for a c sections were obese, in their 30s, and usually had diabetes and gestational hypertension. All of these mean you're probably going to have a difficult birth. There's been a lot of data showing the average birth age is 29 in the US, and the Amerifat meme definately has a grain of truth in it.
Other than wanting to "really give birth", is there any reason not to go the c-section route? I must confess my education has not explained this. Sounds so much better to not have to feel baby come out.
 
  • Dumb
Reactions: Clamater
Other than wanting to "really give birth", is there any reason not to go the c-section route? I must confess my education has not explained this. Sounds so much better to not have to feel baby come out.
Main reason is that it's still surgery and comes with all the risks of surgery. Infection, bleeding,, etc. There's also some c section specific risks like difficulty with future births, higher rates of ectopic pregnancy, reduced fertility and a small risk of needing a hysterectomy. Despite still having risks, natural birth is still safer for the mom and has less risk of complications than a c section. There's also the benefit of the baby getting immediate skin to skin time with the mother which has shown to have huge benefits for the mom and baby, which is difficult to do in the OR.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Fareal
Other than wanting to "really give birth", is there any reason not to go the c-section route? I must confess my education has not explained this. Sounds so much better to not have to feel baby come out.
They cut through five layers of abdominal tissue, making a hole into you big enough for an entire infant human to come out. It's a six week recovery, if it's uncomplicated, and you are considerably under medicated afterwards by comparison with other major abdo surgeries. Avoid that shit.

It absolutely fucking sucks as soon as the spinal wears off, and it sucks pretty hard for quite a long time afterwards, is the answer. Vaginal birth, once the baby is out, the worst is over. The baby coming out is the start of the worst being over with a section. Can honestly say from personal experience and anecdata of discussion with many other women that everyone finds a section worse than a vaginal delivery. If scarring bothers you, most people get a wow of a scar. If the wound gets infected, or you form keloids or both, wowee. Mine would be legitimately disfiguring if I actually gave a fuck or ever displayed any part of my abdomen in public.

It absolutely saves countless lives, mine and one baby's included, and I'm profoundly grateful for that. It still fucking sucked, fren, and I would absolutely much rather have waddled cautiously out of the hospital a few hours after birth with the big pads on.

The other thing about sections is they are usually performed after a trial of labour as an emergency procedure. So in my case, I got all the way along to having the baby, full dilation, full contractions, the whole 'ow fuck this' shebang, cervical tear due to mismangement... and then I got gutted like a fish anyway because baby is a muppet and somehow contrived to get the cord around their neck on the way out, and pulled out of the skylight was the only safe way to deliver them. So basically you get all the shit of 'normal' delivery plus the fun of the surgical recovery. It's all infinitely better than fucking dying, sure, but it's not what you would choose.
 
Other than wanting to "really give birth", is there any reason not to go the c-section route? I must confess my education has not explained this. Sounds so much better to not have to feel baby come out.
All sorts from recovery to impact on future pregnancies and yadda yadda yadda.

Giving birth isn't awful when it goes well. It's gross and painful but it's not awful. It's actually a pretty amazing experience.

It's when you've got shitty care practitioners, shitty settings, outdated practices etc thar everything goes tits up.

As for the trauma side, it's not just about the woman, you're in there vulnerable with this thing you've been growing inside you for nearly a year. You're trying to keep you safe and your sprog but everything's gone to shit and you can see and hear it going to shit as the monitors go off and the doctors come in. It's not just the manhandling and invasiveness, it's the 'is my fucking baby ok'? That will always be the scariest part for me with the first one, nobody taking the time to even just say, 'it'll be fine'. It was fine (after 6 months of healing and I didn't even have a section).

When your child is involved, whether it's inside you or out, shit hits different.
 
Other than wanting to "really give birth", is there any reason not to go the c-section route? I must confess my education has not explained this. Sounds so much better to not have to feel baby come out.
C-section is a major surgery where they cut and/or move various things out of the way. My intestines hung out in some metal bowls for example to get them out of the way. Generally your recovery period is longer as well and you have to worry about blood clots. About 6 hours after a section I was forced to get up and begin moving around to lessen the chance of developing blood clots (I had 2 nurses that would help me to the bathroom so I could do my business and they could check the incision and how the plumbing was working).

Skin to skin might not happen as well. 98% of the time baby goes on mom's chest right after delivery if baby is healthy. This doesn't necessarily happen with a section (and being stitched back up takes about 45 minutes so you might not see your baby until an hour after they're pulled out of you into the world). I had an emergency c-section where my doctor urged for baby to be put on my upper chest for skin to skin because he's a bit superstitious and believes that skin to skin is magic when mom and/or baby is close to death (interesting phenomenon have been recorded where mom or baby appear to be dying and are "revived" by skin to skin by mom/baby/twin. It's fascinating).

Walking after one is a bitch. You feel like your legs won't be able to support you at all and your range of motion is severely limited. I didn't get my full range of motion back for about 6 weeks or so and I had to sleep on the couch when I was home because my bed was too high off the ground on the frame I had, and too low to the ground without the frame. Had a cousin who had a section because baby's heart rate would plummet during each contraction, it took her a year to recover her mobility.

Oh, and you now have a 7-10 pound helpless creature that depends on you for their every need or they die.
 
Back