Game of Thrones Thread

[Tasty Tatty]

There is a character in the books whose two (so far) only chapters state and repeat he's traumatised by the sound of bells due to a battle he lost.

After that, he said next time he's presented a similar situation, he won't doubt burning down a full town if he must to because he is desperate to win and seize the throne.

If we follow Martin's rule of three I mentioned above, it can only mean one thing: Dany will go mad at the sound of bells and burn down a city. Yep. D&D understood everything.

 

[Gar For Archer]

The problem with The Others is that they are so powerful, nothing but a Deus ex machina will save the world from them. Which in turn makes them not intimidating. They might kill some important characters but either they die by some bullshit reason or they kill everyone in a shitty "defying expectations" ending. Cersei being a human character has a lot more thing she can do (not to mention being realistic) so it gets the audience invested.
It's the same reason why The Joker is more frightening than Thanos.

The Others are probably some sort of red herring. The whole humans vs. White Walkers conflict in the books plays out very differently from the show. The most important difference being that they don’t have a leader and also lack a clear agenda. The Night King is literally a villain that was invented for the show - there’s a guy in the books called the Nights King but he’s long dead in the present day.

I think it’s most likely that the Others are actually thralls of the Children of the Forest, who are using them to take revenge on humans for taking over their land while feigning innocence.

 

[draggs]

As stated the others have no central leader and I doubt Martin would have it be so simple as a mother ship dies the drones drop plot.

Stannis is gonna be the new Night's King. Or it will be expectations subverted

In the room the Undying sit around in for all time or whatever, Dany sees this vision (among others):

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

(Stannis' fake Lightbringer)
(Blue-eyed, Stannis has blue eyes, so do the Others and the wights)
(Described as a king but who thinks Stannis is ever gonna actually be king of Westeros in truth, so king of what exactly?)
(Melisandre tells Davos at Storm's End that there are no shadows in the dark and that the brightest light casts the darkest shadows. Thought Stannis was supposed to be a champion of the light but here he is casting no shadow like how it is in the dark hmmm...)

Later on Stannis takes for his seat on the Wall the Nightfort, where the original Night's King ruled from. Although Stannis doesn't go there he goes off to attack Deepwood Motte and then Winterfell. The hand gets tipped constantly in the books, George is always giving hint after hint about so many future plot points. But George also slips in fake hints with the real ones so he could still subvert expectations and have Stannis not become the Night's King. I don't think he has ever tossed out as many hints as he has for this and not paid it off though, yet

 

[Ishtar]

There is a character in the books whose two (so far) only chapters state and repeat he's traumatised by the sound of bells due to a battle he lost.

After that, he said next time he's presented a similar situation, he won't doubt burning down a full town if he must to because he is desperate to win and seize the throne.

If we follow Martin's rule of three I mentioned above, it can only mean one thing: Dany will go mad at the sound of bells and burn down a city. Yep. D&D understood everything.

Connington yeah. (I don’t think he’s the one to burn down king’s landing though. He’s going to be let in-he’s a mirror to Tywin in more ways than one).

Aegon VI I suspect will take the throne with relatively little violence-at least in the capital city. Tommen and Myrcella’s deaths will not be pinned on him-after all heroes don’t kill children.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Connington yeah. (I don’t think he’s the one to burn down king’s landing though. He’s going to be let in-he’s a mirror to Tywin in more ways than one).

It doesn't have to be King's Landing necessarily. The tragedy of his character is not going to be that he burns down King's Landing, but rather that he burns people -any town- down because he thinks this is what he's meant to do. He's not only losing his life, he's losing his soul too and trying to become more like Tywin.

 

[Ishtar]

It doesn't have to be King's Landing necessarily. The tragedy of his character is not going to be that he burns down King's Landing, but rather that he burns people -any town- down because he thinks this is what he's meant to do. He's not only losing his life, he's losing his soul too and trying to become more like Tywin.

Well yes that is his telegraphed character arc.

I do acknowledge that including Aegon would have been very complex for the show and caused it to slow-especially since Winds was never and likely will never be released.

But it’s clear to me that the story needs fAegon, to work. LSH as well.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

But it’s clear to me that the story needs fAegon, to work. LSH as well.

Yep. Jaime and Brianne's arc are heavily linked to LSH. That's why they ended up with nothing to do.

Same for Dorne and fAegon. At least they had the decency to not cast Arianne.

 

[Ishtar]

Arianne will likely marry fAegon, and be something of a foil to Daenerys. Or well Aegon will be. A second dance of the dragons though is going to happen. Daenerys will be the barbarian mad queen-and Aegon the beautiful hero who toppled the decadent Lannisters with golden knights in shining armor, the support of the faith and the people.

Daenerys is coming with foreign barbarians-savage Dothraki and eunuch slave soldiers, freed slaves and mercenary bands-all with ridiculous names, ugly skin and hair, and worshipping profane gods. Not only is Daenerys coming with foreign hordes, Daenerys is coming with Tyrion Lannister-a vile kinslayer and kingslayer, and accursed dwarf, Jorah(likely) a slaver and exile, also followers of the lord of light-a fanatical foreign religion that is hostile to the faith of westeros.

Daenerys is basically set up as a PR made villain in the minds of the westerosi. Her followers are foreigners, traitors, scum and strange eastern fanatics, whereas Aegon will have the flower of the reach nobility, a lovely dornish wife, the heroic golden company, and the faith of true gods, the gods of westeros.

So Daenerys will be rejected and despised, though she is fated to slay Aegon-the “cloth dragon swaying on poles”-Aegon is a lie, and Daenerys is his end. And she will likely be the end of house Martell as well.

As for LSH-it’s important to note a few things indicated in the books.

The Lannister position in the river lands is basically sitting on an open stove ready to blow. Lannister soldiers are being killed even when they go out in groups of three and five, hanged and their armor pilfered. Freys pretty much can’t leave the twins or the safety of their camps without being strung up. Daven notes that the Lannister camp is itself being watched-there are fires surrounding it in the distance.

Tom O’Sevens has already infiltrated Riverrun, and the blackfish is still on the loose. Many riverlords are also in Lannister custody-either at the Twins or heading to the rock with Marbrand. This caravan also has Jeyne-Robb’s late wife.

The Lannisters may have won in the river lands-but their position is fundamentally untenable-the riverlords only submitted at sword point and due to a lot of hostages being seized. If Jaimie should be reported as dead, and Daven Lannister also slain-well nothing will prevent the entire lannister presence in the region from being destroyed.

Not to mention the Frey’s are probably going to have their own civil war once Walder dies-and that might involve the Vale intervening(given one of his sons has ties to a Vale house).

Jaimie and Brienne are going to meet Stoneheart-and I’m not sure how they will survive. Either one will die; or Jaimie will be forced to do something like…open the gates to allow LSH to enter and massacre the Frey’s and Lannisters present-at Daven’s wedding. (That’s probably another reason the books have stalled-Jaimie’s fate).

Add in the Vale what with Harold Harding(sp?) and LF’s machinations and the situation will explode.

TLDR: Dany is coming with literal rapefugees and savages, Aegon is going to be roasted, and the Riverlands are a tinder box the Lannisters are about to let blow.

Obviously this was all cut out of the show, and thus a lot of the plot threads were pruned and ended up making no sense-such as the riverlands ceasing to exist, or the Freys’ destruction not having any consequences. Cersei surviving(at least as Queen if not her life) meant that Dany didn’t have a “heroic” antagonist to fight. This completely derailed her character arc along with Tyrion, in particular, as well as causing other characters like Jon and Varys to take roles that will likely be filled by other characters.

 

[Marika]

Do you all think Rickon, Shaggydog, and Osha will end up like in the show? They're so much more interesting in the books, and I really hope Davos and the people from White Harbor end up finding them.

 

[Ishtar]

I suppose Rickon could be found, if so it might cause the Manderly’s to fully support Stannis-though the timeframe is going to be interesting. If Stannis is believed dead, or Jon has been resurrected or Robb’s letter recovered-things could confused and chaotic.

Stannis will likely trick the Bolton cavalry to charge him over the ice-and the ice will collapse. The northern plot has a lot of moving parts that have to connect at precisely the right time to work.

There’s also Justin Massey who is going to collect 20,000 mercenaries, the tensions at the wall, and Jon being resurrected by Melisandre. Of course-Shireen’s sacrifice is absolutely confirmed.

When that happens is hard to say(I honestly think it will be at the end of the book-Mel will sacrifice the swapped baby, at the beginning.

(I absolutely believe Stannis will be the one to sacrifice Shireen-it will be the denouement of his entire character arc, and is already foreshadowed with Edric Storm).

Osha is hard to say-I don’t see her playing a major role honestly.

 

[John Titor]

So…okay what is my main problem with ASOIAF just in terms of criticism?

Is it Martin’s hubris with the Aragorn tax comment? No.

Is it his overly descriptive paragraphs of food and dysentery? No.

Is it the utter glacial pace of the plot? Well somewhat but not really.

My main criticism is the work is misleadingly advertised. At the end of the day-it’s about wolf tribe being good guys, all going on their own coming of age hero arcs, and the lion tribe is bad. Dragon tribe seems to be leaning towards bad too.

Martin disguises this pretty well with Tyrion in the early books and Jaimie later, as well as showing how Ned especially was a fairly complex character in his own right-not just a benevolent and naive patriarch.

But as Martin has stated-Tyrion is a villain, Jaimie’s “redemption” is less a redemption per se and more Martin exploring the notion of redemption itself, and cersei and Tywin are both morally rotten and the narrative wants us to believe are far less competent than they are appear.*

*one common refrain is people are loyal to house stark, after all the mountain clans want to save “Ned’s girl” and Tywin’s legacy is collapsing.

This being a major thematic contrast between the two men. Okay first off-it’s two entirely different situations. Secondly-Tywin never had a subordinate house betray him, even the Westerlings defection was mostly insincere. Tyrion is probably going to wreck the Westerlands(or he would if Dream ever came out) and sure that’s a massive failing on Tywin’s part. He never had his ancestral holdings overturned though, and while House Baratheon of King’s Landing may be headed for the Grave(to be fair- a de facto branch of house Lannister what with the incest and all) the Lannister lion is still flying proud in the westerlands. Literally no one, including the Vale is interested in actually seizing casterly rock. And the martells are banking on dragons. Winterfell has already been sacked, the stark family scattered.

It’s just such a ridiculous “point” the narrative wants us to accept.

Backing away from that related tangential a bit-at the end of the day the starks are the protagonists with the Lannisters as antagonists, and the targaryens likely to be antagonists of the starks if the show remotely followed the outline in anyway-especially if Bran becomes king and Sansa ruler of something or another(but not Queen in the Norf because that was dumb).

TLDR: Some of the “themes” don’t really work on closer examination, the Tywin-Ned contrast, the immorality of vengeance(who will be condemning LSH when she guts Daven’s wedding?), and there aren’t “heroes and villains on both sides”-that is simply false.

Basically the narrative is far more conventional and less “subversive” than people say it is, Martin included. He just does a good job of obscuring this fact.

I'll give you that the series makes it look like he's really biased towards the Starks because Ned is a goody two shoes even by our real world standards (alright, I might be stretching it with the execution in the intro). I'll also argue that they exist to show that being the "good guy" kind of sucks.

 

[TheHarbinger]

I'll give you that the series makes it look like he's really biased towards the Starks because Ned is a goody two shoes even by our real world standards (alright, I might be stretching it with the execution in the intro). I'll also argue that they exist to show that being the "good guy" kind of sucks.

Being anyone in the World of Ice and Fire is not that great. Innocent civilians and peasants are basically wholesale slaughtered in pointless wars. Undesirable children are sent to the Wall as punishment for ungrateful parents having them. Queens are raped in front of the smashed skulls of their children. Kings are poisoned at their weddings or murdered alongside their entire families. And before that a family of psychotic maniacs ruled like total tyrants with their all powerful unbeatable dragons essentially enslaving an entire continent that had not heard of them before their invasion.

One point of the ASOIAF novels according to GRRM was to show that the medieval monarchy and feudal system was broken, but told in a fantasy setting. This is why so many people predicted that the end would bring some sort of democracy or split the kingdoms back into seven. Because the old system nearly lead to everyone getting overrun by ice demons. That while people are fighting over the Iron Throne the real threats like survival against the Others or winter and the elements are ignored. And that civilians are marched to war against their will and their homes and families are left to be robbed and raped and murdered. Like the two innocent kids who Ramsay kills to make look like Bran and Rickon. Or the countless women that are raped that people like the Brotherhood or Sandor are busy avenging.

Being the good and bad guy is not great in this universe. Pretty much all of the rulers are insane and paranoid or outright liars and monsters. They live every moment looking over their shoulder for the dagger. Peasants are treated like animals and have no chance for social mobility. Good and bad leaders are routinely killed or murdered. Everyone is scheming and backstabbing. You could die at any moment simply because someone wants you dead or out of the way. Brandon Sanderson criticized GRRM for writing overly pessimistic characters and worlds and said he would refuse to finish the ASOIAF novels if given the chance. Because there really is no 'hope' in this series (not even hope to see it finished either at this point).

And GRRM is obviously heavily biased towards the Starks. He has said in interviews that monarchy is bad in a million different ways. Yet one of the most repeated statements in the books is "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" like it is a saving institution for the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms. Hence why Bran will be the King in the books as well as the HBO show. The Starks have been rulers for pretty much all of history since Bran the Builder. They basically are tyrannical monarch types but GRRM just happens to like them.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Being anyone in the World of Ice and Fire is not that great. Innocent civilians and peasants are basically wholesale slaughtered in pointless wars. Undesirable children are sent to the Wall as punishment for ungrateful parents having them. Queens are raped in front of the smashed skulls of their children. Kings are poisoned at their weddings or murdered alongside their entire families. And before that a family of psychotic maniacs ruled like total tyrants with their all powerful unbeatable dragons essentially enslaving an entire continent that had not heard of them before their invasion.

One point of the ASOIAF novels according to GRRM was to show that the medieval monarchy and feudal system was broken, but told in a fantasy setting. This is why so many people predicted that the end would bring some sort of democracy or split the kingdoms back into seven. Because the old system nearly lead to everyone getting overrun by ice demons. That while people are fighting over the Iron Throne the real threats like survival against the Others or winter and the elements are ignored. And that civilians are marched to war against their will and their homes and families are left to be robbed and raped and murdered. Like the two innocent kids who Ramsay kills to make look like Bran and Rickon. Or the countless women that are raped that people like the Brotherhood or Sandor are busy avenging.

Being the good and bad guy is not great in this universe. Pretty much all of the rulers are insane and paranoid or outright liars and monsters. They live every moment looking over their shoulder for the dagger. Peasants are treated like animals and have no chance for social mobility. Good and bad leaders are routinely killed or murdered. Everyone is scheming and backstabbing. You could die at any moment simply because someone wants you dead or out of the way. Brandon Sanderson criticized GRRM for writing overly pessimistic characters and worlds and said he would refuse to finish the ASOIAF novels if given the chance. Because there really is no 'hope' in this series (not even hope to see it finished either at this point).

And GRRM is obviously heavily biased towards the Starks. He has said in interviews that monarchy is bad in a million different ways. Yet one of the most repeated statements in the books is "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" like it is a saving institution for the entirety of the Seven Kingdoms. Hence why Bran will be the King in the books as well as the HBO show. The Starks have been rulers for pretty much all of history since Bran the Builder. They basically are tyrannical monarch types but GRRM just happens to like them.

"Being the good and bad guy is not great in real life" is about as deep as a message as a 13 year old's instagram account. In the end the grimdarkness is only possible by everyone acting like a complete moron. While I despise monarchists, you'll still have them at least know not to burn down conquered villages or acting like a saturday morning villain by how incredibly pointless and short sighted such acts are. Especially considering that anyone sitting out of the conflict will emerge as the strongest party by the end.

While I have no problem taking the plot for what it is while reading, the idea you can take any moral from an incredibly biased take on history is ridiculous. As if you can't ruin your life well enough nowadays by calling a tranny by the wrong pronoun. Or that some families wield enough money and political influence to be court aristocrats. Also court intrigue will only get you if you either try to climb the ranks or be stupid enough to not put your head down.

You'd have more historical accuracy watching Black Adder.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Jaimie and Brienne are going to meet Stoneheart-and I’m not sure how they will survive. Either one will die; or Jaimie will be forced to do something like…open the gates to allow LSH to enter and massacre the Frey’s and Lannisters present-at Daven’s wedding. (That’s probably another reason the books have stalled-Jaimie’s fate).

You reminded me of Daven. I like him and I fear he's likely gonna get killed.

 

[Ishtar]

You reminded me of Daven. I like him and I fear he's likely gonna get killed.

That and he is going to marry Amerei Frey-otherwise known as Gatehouse Ami. (For her wild and unashamed promiscuity).

I feel sad that Genna will die, she seems like a nice lady tbh. But Daven is cool too though.

I suspect though there will be a red wedding esque scene where Stoneheart and the Brotherhood enter the wedding hall and start killing everyone. With the Lannister garrison outside butchered.

As for historical accuracy-peasants being sent into the nine penny kings war in the stepstones really bugs my historical accuracy autism. Really? Sending peasants to an offensive expeditionary campaign? Against golden company knights? So stupid and utterly wasteful.

 

[Mary the Goldsmith]

been living under a rock, did the fat fuck say he's nearly done or why are you guys suddenly speculating on the plot of the books again?

 

[TheHarbinger]

been living under a rock, did the fat fuck say he's nearly done or why are you guys suddenly speculating on the plot of the books again?

The prequel series are being mass advertised so the (lack of) books are in the news again. And GRRM has made comments on TWOW recently and his 'progress'. Once the prequels hit, this thread will probably pick up even more. Seeing the prequel news got me thinking about how dead this series was and how promising it once was. And how GRRM knows he is done with the books but keeps the fans in a delusional state that he will finish.

 

[draggs]

One thing I hate about worlds like ASOIAF is that they mix the economic and technological situation of ~1600s western Europe with the feudal customs and law of ~1100s western Europe, and things like people of all levels of wealth and social status regularly traveling over huge distances like they did not until the second half of the 1900s

I know it makes for a more vibrant and interesting setting but it's so many anachronisms stuffed together and 'this is a made up world' doesn't cut it for me. The internal contradictions of the setting are massive and you can't / shouldn't be able to handwave it away with 'well this it's different because it's different'

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

One thing I hate about worlds like ASOIAF is that they mix the economic and technological situation of ~1600s western Europe with the feudal customs and law of ~1100s western Europe, and things like people of all levels of wealth and social status regularly traveling over huge distances like they did not until the second half of the 1900s

I know it makes for a more vibrant and interesting setting but it's so many anachronisms stuffed together and 'this is a made up world' doesn't cut it for me. The internal contradictions of the setting are massive and you can't / shouldn't be able to handwave it away with 'well this it's different because it's different'

The question is whether it's GRRM being a lazy fuck and not doing the research and just using generic medieval tropes. Or actually knowing better and choosing the lazy route for the plot and his plot to get acrossed.

Also didn't he say that the Others are metaphors for climate change despite it not being a thing when the first book was written?

 

[draggs]

The question is whether it's GRRM being a lazy fuck and not doing the research and just using generic medieval tropes. Or actually knowing better and choosing the lazy route for the plot and his plot to get acrossed.

Also didn't he say that the Others are metaphors for climate change despite it not being a thing when the first book was written?

Another thing that gets me is it seems like civilization has barely progressed in 8000 years, 8000 years before ASOIAF things were generally like a mid bronze age level, and in ASOIAF some things are early middle ages level some are late middle ages/early Renaissance level. 8000 years is a long ass time in the real world mid bronze age to today is 4000ish years