Game of Thrones Thread

[vulg]

Martin thinks he's better than Tolkien.

god he sounds like Neil Degrasse Tyson

Spoiler: incoming call

 

[Ginger Piglet]

(For an example, see everything Rowling has written after the fifth Harry Potter novel.)

FTFY.

In fact, Harry Potter was never all that great to begin with, but the third and fourth ones are almost tolerable. However after the fifth one it was clear that she had added "not giving a shit" to the litany of literary faults. Don't get me wrong, the biggest faults with HP (complete failure of world building, zero character development, Harry as the designated hero, the script needing the plot to happen, whimsy for its own sake because MAGIC SCHOOL, the rules of Quidditch which make no fucking sense - if the snitch is worth 15 goals and ends the game, just field two keepers to keep the scoreline manageable and five seekers to grab the snitch first, house Slytherin as designated bad guys forever, plot armour, a villain which struggles to be more than one dimensional at most, etc.) were all evident in the first few, but she could have called the last one "Harry Potter and the Invasion of the Mutant Space Bats of Doom" and people would have bought it regardless.

Lots of buildup, zero payoff

Ain't that the truth. I suspect he knew where and how it ended (Bran the Wheely Wheely Legs No Feely being king at the end probably was intended from the outset given that Bran's being shoved out the window in the first place was what set off the whole of the plot, meaning it dovetails nicely). But somewhere along the line he succumbed more and more to the temptation to insert endless side plots, infodumps, and basically forgot how he was going to get there in the first place. This is why there's the Meereenese Knot. This is why there's a whole subplot involving the princes of Dorne which never goes anywhere or has any real effect on the main plot. This is why the fourth book has nothing happening in it. This is why there's endless descriptions of dinners and feasts.

American Tolkien? Don't make me laugh. The Lord of the Rings was focused and tight as fuck. The Silmarillion was basically intended as the backstory to the setting and jumping off point for other stories in the legendarium. No, he's more like Robert Jordan in denial. I've said it before, but ASOIAF is now a bigger meme than the all time meme fantasy books.

Want to read some genuinely well written low fantasy? Joe Abercrombie's "The First Law" series For a start, it subverts your expectations by not having medieval stasis; the setting is clearly a Renaissance one and as of the "Age of Madness" trilogy (volumes 8-10) it's advanced to early industrial. It then relies on character development and keeps the number of viewpoint characters down (well, for the most part), rather than endless fucking plot and infodumps. I would like to see it made into a budget-busting TV series but on the other hand I don't want it defiled or fiddly-fucked with by adaptation writers like Dumb & Dumber.

 

[buying gf]

Ain't that the truth. I suspect he knew where and how it ended (Bran the Wheely Wheely Legs No Feely being king at the end probably was intended from the outset given that Bran's being shoved out the window in the first place was what set off the whole of the plot, meaning it dovetails nicely). But somewhere along the line he succumbed more and more to the temptation to insert endless side plots, infodumps, and basically forgot how he was going to get there in the first place. This is why there's the Meereenese Knot. This is why there's a whole subplot involving the princes of Dorne which never goes anywhere or has any real effect on the main plot. This is why the fourth book has nothing happening in it. This is why there's endless descriptions of dinners and feasts.

This is why the whole idea of writers 'gardeners' as opposed to 'architects' is silly. It's an excuse for laziness and the inability to control your own story. But you end up getting all of the credit for random bullshit you decided to go back to, and none of the flak for the stuff you added that ended up being pointless. For example, the group of religious fanatics who get sent to the wall by Cersei. If you brought it up, most bookfans would give you blank stares, because they don't matter and probably won't.

And you could say that this is 'worldbuilding', but isn't it much better when the worldbuilding is actually part of the story and doesn't have to be excused after the fact?

 

[vulg]

Ain't that the truth. I suspect he knew where and how it ended (Bran the Wheely Wheely Legs No Feely being king at the end probably was intended from the outset given that Bran's being shoved out the window in the first place was what set off the whole of the plot, meaning it dovetails nicely). But somewhere along the line he succumbed more and more to the temptation to insert endless side plots, infodumps, and basically forgot how he was going to get there in the first place. This is why there's the Meereenese Knot. This is why there's a whole subplot involving the princes of Dorne which never goes anywhere or has any real effect on the main plot. This is why the fourth book has nothing happening in it. This is why there's endless descriptions of dinners and feasts.

American Tolkien? Don't make me laugh. The Lord of the Rings was focused and tight as fuck. The Silmarillion was basically intended as the backstory to the setting and jumping off point for other stories in the legendarium. No, he's more like Robert Jordan in denial. I've said it before, but ASOIAF is now a bigger meme than the all time meme fantasy books.

Fire & Blood, the prologue to the Targaryen Conquest is a complete fucking mess of a book that reads far more like a studio show's bible than an actually entertaining piece of media. In the Silmarillion every page, no matter how dry, is teeming with life and passion. I really can't say the same for Fire and Blood, and likely, a big reason is because it was genuinely a studio bible intended for the upcoming show House of the Dragon.

 

[The Bovinian Derivative]

This is why the whole idea of writers 'gardeners' as opposed to 'architects' is silly

I honestly have no idea how can people sit down and write a 100K word novel by barely knowing anything besides the main characters, a few plot points, and (hopefully for at least your first book) an ending. And by 'sitting down and writing it' I mean that, not just sitting around and plotting things out, there gardening is the only thing you can do. If GRRM really is a gardener it's a small miracle that we have the books we already have, and with that in mind I can believe that he writes hundreds of words a day, except with all the subplots and not foresight he probably throws out just as much.

 

[vulg]

I honestly have no idea how can people sit down and write a 100K word novel by barely knowing anything besides the main characters, a few plot points, and (hopefully for at least your first book) an ending. And by 'sitting down and writing it' I mean that, not just sitting around and plotting things out, there gardening is the only thing you can do. If GRRM really is a gardener it's a small miracle that we have the books we already have, and with that in mind I can believe that he writes hundreds of words a day, except with all the subplots and not foresight he probably throws out just as much.

he has two or three main editors I think, hes worked with them a long time. In Fire and Blood A LOT of the content was either already known information or outright copy and pasted from already released texts. To me, this indicates his editors don’t have creative freedom and he’s very protective of his work.

Its possible he writes 200 words a day and then tosses it in the trash, but Im skeptical. I recall someone doing the math - and if he wrote 200 words a day on Winds since the release Dance, then he wouldve released Dream years ago. mysterious.

 

[MelloYello]

The Lord of the Rings was focused and tight as fuck.

That's...debatable.

In Fellowship, it takes the Hobbits about 200 pages to even get to Bree, and you probably could've removed 100 of them without missing anything of importance.

 

[Kane Lives]

That's...debatable.

In Fellowship, it takes the Hobbits about 200 pages to even get to Bree, and you probably could've removed 100 of them without missing anything of importance.

Are you including the Bombadil part in there? Because he's theoretically supposed to be a symbol that you shouldn't fight power with more power. Or something, something. I never did quite get a straight answer.

I still don't understand the metaphor or the purpose of Tom Bombadil to be quite honest. If there's one thing Peter Jackson did correct, it was to axe that part and all mention of Tom Bombadil.

he has two or three main editors I think, hes worked with them a long time. In Fire and Blood A LOT of the content was either already known information or outright copy and pasted from already released texts. To me, this indicates his editors don’t have creative freedom and he’s very protective of his work.

Its possible he writes 200 words a day and then tosses it in the trash, but Im skeptical. I recall someone doing the math - and if he wrote 200 words a day on Winds since the release Dance, then he wouldve released Dream years ago. mysterious.

I'm long convinced he's just fucking around and counting down the days when he dies. Royalty from the shows alone would let him just coast to a diabetes induced coma without needing to work a single day more of his life.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Are you including the Bombadil part in there? Because he's theoretically supposed to be a symbol that you shouldn't fight power with more power. Or something, something. I never did quite get a straight answer.

I still don't understand the metaphor or the purpose of Tom Bombadil to be quite honest. If there's one thing Peter Jackson did correct, it was to axe that part and all mention of Tom Bombadil.


I'm long convinced he's just fucking around and counting down the days when he dies. Royalty from the shows alone would let him just coast to a diabetes induced coma without needing to work a single day more of his life.

The only thing missing from Peter Jackson's Fellowship is a Monty Python esque "Let's not go there it's a silly place" regarding Bombadil's home.

 

[StarkRavingMad]

Tom Bombadil is one of my favorite LOTR characters ... I completely understand why he was cut from the film (literature and cinema are different mediums, after all), but I love that part of the Fellowship book.

 

[Shield Breaker]

Are you including the Bombadil part in there? Because he's theoretically supposed to be a symbol that you shouldn't fight power with more power. Or something, something. I never did quite get a straight answer.

I still don't understand the metaphor or the purpose of Tom Bombadil to be quite honest. If there's one thing Peter Jackson did correct, it was to axe that part and all mention of Tom Bombadil.


I'm long convinced he's just fucking around and counting down the days when he dies. Royalty from the shows alone would let him just coast to a diabetes induced coma without needing to work a single day more of his life.

Tom was a character he invented and told stories about to his children. It was based on a doll one of them had. The purpose was to be an easter egg for his kids.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

Are you including the Bombadil part in there? Because he's theoretically supposed to be a symbol that you shouldn't fight power with more power. Or something, something. I never did quite get a straight answer.

Tom works in the book, but would not work at all in the film.

In the book, you can have a slower pace. The reader, most likely, isn't going to read it all in a day, so having a "marathon not a sprint" mentality in print makes more sense. You can stop to smell the flowers and explore the world a little bit. In that framework, Bombadil works as a way to explore the Hobbits seeing more of the world outside of Hobbiton, and exploring concepts of responsibility and apathy.

In movies, you have to get that shit down to a few hours, so taking a break to go talk to old man Tom when that has little to no impact on the overall story would bring things to a screeching halt and it was wise to leave that out. Honestly, if I were adapting LOTR, that's the first thing I would have cut, purely for pacing reasons. Heck, even the Bakshi version was smart enough to cut it.

 

[Absolutego]

That's...debatable.

In Fellowship, it takes the Hobbits about 200 pages to even get to Bree, and you probably could've removed 100 of them without missing anything of importance.

You're right that they aren't well-structured books. IIRC Tolkien described his writing process for the trilogy as starting at the beginning, writing until he got stuck, and then restarting to avoid whatever blocked him. That's why the books get progressively more condensed over time. Think about how much happens in the Return of the King compared to Fellowship. One of the Tolkien experts they brought on for the special editions of the movies described it as roughly a paragraph's worth of plot in the third book would've taken half a chapter, if Tolkien wrote it in the style of the first one.

It works because Fellowship's relaxed pace does an amazing job of getting the reader to buy into the world and then roll with it as things accelerate, but Tolkien wasn't conforming to modern conventions of professional structure, that's for sure. He just worked around that to get the job done, unlike GRRM, who would rather write lore notes and build his world bible instead of figuring out how to resolve the double cliffhanger he ended the last book on.

 

[vulg]

In relation to the meandering nature of Tolkein’s earlier work, I think its worth saying that a lot of his inspiration wouldve come from Anglo Norse sagas as well, which suffer from similar problems.

Often theyll focus dozens of lines on how a neighbour intricately tricked the hero into stealing his sheep, but then will just briefly bring up in a single line how he fought and killed a Dragon.

Tolkein’s writing improved over time, maybe its just the nature of myths that they have a tendency to get carried away with bullshit.

The interesting thing about George RR Martin is that he often TRIES to replicate the flaws and errors in medieval histories. I appreciate this generally, it makes a lot of the lore feel living and genuine, however it often borders on obnoxiousness. In House of the Dragon it becomes incredibly obnoxious.

SEE, LOOK GUYS THIS SCRIBE IS BIASED. HMMM, WHATS HE PLANNING GUYS???
fuck off.

 

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

You're right that they aren't well-structured books. IIRC Tolkien described his writing process for the trilogy as starting at the beginning, writing until he got stuck, and then restarting to avoid whatever blocked him. That's why the books get progressively more condensed over time. Think about how much happens in the Return of the King compared to Fellowship. One of the Tolkien experts they brought on for the special editions of the movies described it as roughly a paragraph's worth of plot in the third book would've taken half a chapter, if Tolkien wrote it in the style of the first one.

It works because Fellowship's relaxed pace does an amazing job of getting the reader to buy into the world and then roll with it as things accelerate, but Tolkien wasn't conforming to modern conventions of professional structure, that's for sure. He just worked around that to get the job done, unlike GRRM, who would rather write lore notes and build his world bible instead of figuring out how to resolve the double cliffhanger he ended the last book on.

That's actually pretty interesting because I always thought that, for as much story there is in Return of the King, it's actually briskly paced. It's still about 400+ pages all told, which is the same length as Two Towers and Fellowship, and at that point the story has split into several different directions: Pippin's time in Gondor, Merry's service under Theoden, Aragorn going off with the Dunedain. You've got characters all over the place geographically and emotionally, and yet Tolkien never lets it become a mess. I think another advantage the condensed storytelling has is that it prevents everything from becoming bloated. The story doesn't get bogged down by the increasing number of subplots and it's still easy to follow. It's not perfect and it doesn't follow modern conventional storytelling, but it's fascinating how Tolkien boils down a complicated web of events into something easily digestible, both for himself and for the reader.

The reason I suspect Martin has become less inclined to finish ASOIF, besides his notorious laziness, is because of the ever-expanding cast of characters and the complicated subplots that he has to keep track of as the story expands. It's fun to read and analyze the characters and how they navigate the world, but the story's basically gotten too big for Martin to handle at the rate it's going along. If he ever expects to finish the books (unlikely but I'm making a point) he'd have to condense like a motherfucker just to even get there.

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

Martin thinks he's better than Tolkien.

This video tells you everything you need to know about GRRM and why he's never going to finish his damn story. I wonder if he even knows what the purpose of fantasy is? It's not to get bogged down with the complicated minutiae of a world's social and political life. It's not to sit around and worry about the hero's tax policies after he's established his kingdom. There's nothing wrong with giving a story a happy ending and implying that the proper order has been restored to a setting. This niggling about "Well, that would never happen in real life !" is precisely why we read/watch fantasy! Because it's not like real life, and we can ride along with the main characters through their ups and downs and come out at the end feeling satisfied and uplifted. We don't need every fantasy story to have a sappy/happy ending, but we can at least feel that something meaningful has been accomplished. That the heroes' struggles meant something in the grand scheme of things. GRRM is just the kind of writer to give everyone a happy ending, and then write an epilogue where everybody dies from an earthquake so nothing they did in the story mattered. "Because that's so real, guys!" Fucking edgelord.

 

[Ginger Piglet]

This video tells you everything you need to know about GRRM and why he's never going to finish his damn story. I wonder if he even knows what the purpose of fantasy is? It's not to get bogged down with the complicated minutiae of a world's social and political life. It's not to sit around and worry about the hero's tax policies after he's established his kingdom. There's nothing wrong with giving a story a happy ending and implying that the proper order has been restored to a setting. This niggling about "Well, that would never happen in real life !" is precisely why we read/watch fantasy! Because it's not like real life, and we can ride along with the main characters through their ups and downs and come out at the end feeling satisfied and uplifted. We don't need every fantasy story to have a sappy/happy ending, but we can at least feel that something meaningful has been accomplished. That the heroes' struggles meant something in the grand scheme of things. GRRM is just the kind of writer to give everyone a happy ending, and then write an epilogue where everybody dies from an earthquake so nothing they did in the story mattered. "Because that's so real, guys!" Fucking edgelord.

And this is why killing off main characters to "subvert expectations" is not good writing. You can kill off a main character if you want, but it has to serve a purpose and advance the plot somehow. Otherwise all their development is wasted. GRRM can, and has, done this right when Ned Stark bit it in the first book. He'd undergone a meaningful arc and his execution served to advance the plot. But he also did it wrong on so many other occasions.

 

[Stab You in the Back]

I feel like all the people coming up with long, convoluted explanations for why GRRM hasn't finished Winds of Winter are giving the story and GRRM too much credit.

The multitude of subplots in the books aren't all that complex, and they will be consolidated very quickly once Winter encroaches on the south and forces all the different factions to smash into each other.

And GRRM isn't some overworked author, tirelessly trying to put together an overly complex narrative in a way that makes sense. No, he's a fat goon who got lazy and addicted to the immediate gratification endorphin rush that being a famous multi-millionaire brings you. Covid is the only reason he's gotten any work done in the last decade because it basically took all his toys away from him. No movie theatre to run. No conventions to fly off to. Can't take a impromptu vacation to Antarctica to rescue to a huskie. Etc., etc. He still manages to procrastinate by blogging and working on "projects" with Hollywood folk over zoom, but that only takes up so much time and with no filming taking place, he can't sit around set being fawned on all day as a visionary genius.

Now if we could get two more years of lockdown, GRRM might be able to finish Winds. But with things starting to open up, he's going to go from writing 200 words a day back to writing 200 words a year.

 

[RadicalCentrist]

That worthless fat fuck has written more words on the NY Giants on his blog than all five AGOT books put together.

 

[vulg]

he's literally just playing with trains now lol

Spoiler: trens

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/