General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[Doppio Vinegar]

No it happens: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24071877/

A better source would be this. Even then, both sources describe hair follicles and sebaceous glands, but neither describe the growth of hairs from those follicles. Again, you've proven yourself to never view your own sources before using them and have no clue what you're talking about. Not only that, but the cause of the development of hair follicles and sebaceous glands is an incredibly rare medical issue that is noted for being a sign of cancer. Which leads me to the next topic...

Well diliation of the neovagina is a medical reason, so by your own logic, dilation doesn't prove it isn't a vagina.

This, as well as your entire sperg above it, is retarded. A neovagina is not a vagina. Dilation due to a woman undergoing a health issue is completely different from trying to keep a necrotic wound from sealing up on itself.

Superficial dyspareunia is just pain at the vaginal opening. Dilation as a treatment would only make a woman's vagina hurt less during sex. Moisturizers, lubricants, and topical anesthetics are encouraged for treatment. Dilation is a last resort. It is not used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound.
High-tone pelvic floor dysfunction is also characterized as vaginal pain due to pelvic floor spasms and tenseness. Exercise is encouraged for treatment, NOT dilation. Even if dilation was used as treatment for HTPFD, it would not be used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound.
Vaginismus, as it turns out, is not a disability or a disorder. It is the body's natural reaction to vaginal penetration, causing the vagina to tense up on itself. Dilation is literally not a treatment for this because it is not a disability nor a disorder. Even if it were a disability or disorder, dilation wouldn't be used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound.
Provoked vestibulodynia is another fancy term for vaginal pain, but this time just a general term for it. It is literally treated with telling women they can manage their pain and through placebos, but is also treated with topical therapy like lidocaine and, of course, exercise, just like HTPFD. Dilation is NOT used. Even if it were used, it would not be used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound.
Vaginal atrophy occurs in postmenopausal women and women with low estrogen. It is treated the same way the rest of menopause is treated, and since low estrogen oftentimes causes early-onset menopause (seen in trans men who take testosterone and estrogen blockers), it is treated with menopausal treatments as well. As you may assume, dilation is NOT a treatment for menopause. Even if it were, it would not be used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound.
Vulvar dematoses is literally just a skin condition. Why the FUCK would dilation be used to treat a skin condition, especially since it's a skin condition that shows up in young girls who haven't begun puberty yet? (It shows up in postmenopausal women as well.) It's treated with topical ointments and steroids, but if dilation were for some ungodly reason used for a skin condition, it would not be used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound.
Vaginal agenesis, something I touched on in my last post, is when the vagina isn't developed. This is the only thing on this list where dilation is actually used for treatment above everything else. Again, this is a birth defect, just like intersex is. Let me restate what I said in my post before: Birth defects are outliers that are completely irrelevant when compared to the other 99.9% of the population. They do not mean shit in the grand scheme of things. Even then, vaginal agenesis is just the underdevelopment of the vaginal canal, and if the woman only needed the dilator to reopen her vagina instead of needing a vagina artificially reconstructed (the former being the more common of the two options), she will never need to dilate again, and therefore, dilation would not be used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound. For the latter, like I said before... "These women were given reconstructive surgery on their female vaginal cavities using the linings of female mouths. Of course there would be no rejection- the "neovaginas" are constructed on actual women with partial natural vaginas to go off of. Men do not have natural vaginas that will accept a graft from a mouth."
Post-radiation adhesions in the vagina are so rare that there isn't even an article for it, and therefore, this should not be used as a source for biological women dilating their vaginas. Those who were victim to enough radiation to suffer post-radiation adhesions would have way more medical things to worry about than her sticky vagina, such as her bowels sealing up and rendering her unable to shit. I'm not even going to bless this with my copy-pasted reason. It's degenerate to use this as an excuse for neovaginas being au-naturel.
Psychogenic dyspareunia is something I can use an image to disprove, straight from the source I linked!

Look ma, no dilation! And even if dilation were used, it would not be used to prevent a vagina from sealing up on itself due to being an unnatural axe wound!

You are a retard. There is zero reason why a woman would need to dilate to keep their naturally-occurring vagina from sealing up on itself. A neovagina is not a vagina, it will never behave like a vagina, it will never feel like a vagina, and the owner of said neovagina will never, ever, be a real woman.

Yeah, thanks for lying and not looking at the source yourself Doppio. Nothing about lubrication with feces, and yes penis tissue turns into vaginal tissue. You have proved to be a bigger faggot than actual gay people.

I did some research on my own time because I don't quite trust a source from a webpage that was shut down. I feel like you wouldn't either, and as such, I will never link you a source that I have to scavenge from the Internet Archive. Unfortunately, I have not found anything else that states "penis tissue can turn into vaginal tissue" - hell, I haven't even found anything saying male erectile tissue can become female erectile tissue! I truly would like to, so if you can find anything to prove me wrong (not from a shut-down webpage, mind you!), then be my guest.

Also, you mean to tell me that the fluid from your anus would never ever have any fecal matter in it? You've got to be kidding.

Seethe, cope, and dilate. Tell your Reddit tranny army that helped you with your arguments that I said hello.

ETA: Intersex is a birth defect that is incredibly unpredictable and has many different outcomes, and it should be handled on a case-by-case basis. It is NOT an excuse for being a biological male and hacking off your penis because you want to be a woman. Intersex people are not a "third sex." 1.7% of the population (this statistic including intersex people who are clearly one sex but may have a very small vaginal opening / tiny unusable penis, making them biological men/biological women respectively regardless of showing intersex traits) should NOT suddenly change the remaining 98.3% of the population's view on their fixed biology.

"Uhh, umm, uhh, 1.7% of the 7,890,502,556 people who are currently alive on Earth have a chromosomal abnormality that is the result of a birth defect, so I should be allowed to hack off my dick and be called a real wahmen!"

Grow the fuck up.

 

[Baloney Face]

Hmm.

Short version: All sorts of horrible things can happen to a real vagina, but not spontaneous sealing up as a result of not dilating.

 

[Doppio Vinegar]

LMAO. The trannies in this thread had to let him down and know that it's not true, just as I confirmed here. Unfortunate!

Let me debunk this before he comes here and tries to use it:

The source here states right at the beginning that "Host of vaginoplasty techniques have been described. None has been successful in developing normal vagina." EggstraContent claims that peritoneal tissue can convert right into normal vaginal tissue despite their source debunking that statement in the first sentence of the abstract.

The source also tests on 15 biological women in creating "neovaginas," which in their case, goes with how I described vaginal agenesis treatment in my two posts prior. It only works for biological women, and it creates a functional vagina where one already should be/builds off part of one that was already there. The peritoneal tissue simulates vaginal tissue and lubricates the vagina, but it is not converted to normal vagina tissue- it's simply not rejected by the vagina itself. Again, unfortunate!

Situational irony!

 

[Nigger Respecter]

This thing where they try to argue that a vagina doesn’t define womanhood yet also a neovagina is a real womanly vagina thus proving trannies with them are actual women….hilarious

 

[Baloney Face]

This thing where they try to argue that a vagina doesn’t define womanhood yet also a neovagina is a real womanly vagina thus proving trannies with them are actual women….hilarious

Is it the same trannies arguing both positions in the same argument?

Or is it no-ops versus post-ops?

 

[Pentaborane]

How, then, do we define male and female? Is it by chromosomes? But chromosomes are only the blueprint; the body can develop quite differently than planned. Is it by body structure? But the body’s physical development can be ambiguous, mixed, or in opposition to both chromosomes and gender identity. Is it hormones? But hormones can be unpredictable, and all they do is bring forth the already latent potential for masculinity or femininity. Is it by brain sex? For people who have transgender identities, determining their maleness or femaleness based on their brain sex or brain id makes the most sense, although others seem to think it delusional.

This faggot said this on page 80 and now it's the same paragraph verbatim. You're arguing with a copypasta.

 

[ロボ﹏§¤r﹏h¶rœ]

Right, becasue none of you have seen a real vaginia nor have had sex. Have any of you considered that vaginas are gross in general? I doubt Doppo Vinegar hasn't.

That JoJo poster is a woman, retard.

 

[ryu289]

That JoJo poster is a woman, retard.

Oh there is some irony there.

 

[ryu289]

The source here states right at the beginning that "Host of vaginoplasty techniques have been described. None has been successful in developing normal vagina." EggstraContent claims that peritoneal tissue can convert right into normal vaginal tissue despite their source debunking that statement in the first sentence of the abstract.

The source also tests on 15 biological women in creating "neovaginas," which in their case, goes with how I described vaginal agenesis treatment in my two posts prior. It only works for biological women, and it creates a functional vagina where one already should be/builds off part of one that was already there. The peritoneal tissue simulates vaginal tissue and lubricates the vagina, but it is not converted to normal vagina tissue- it's simply not rejected by the vagina itself. Again, unfortunate!

Let's see what it really says: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296824/

We have shown successful peritoneal metaplastic conversion to normal vagina in LPV. The progenitor cell was identified in normal peritoneum using SOX2/OCT4 markers. The progenitor cell concentration and pattern were demonstrated at various stages of neovaginal development.

So...it says the opposite of what you claimed? Can you even read?

 

[teriyakiburns]

@ryu289 Maybe you should try to read. The study repeatedly speaks of Müllerian structures. The müllerian duct isn't present in natal men (where the müllerian analogue is vestigial and atrophies away in the first trimester). In natal women, the Müllerian duct is the structure that differentiates into the fallopian tubes, uterus, and upper vagina in utero, which opens out to the urogenital slit to form the lower vagina and the labia. Müllerian progenitor cells migrate into the peritoneum during this process, even in the extremely rare case where the vagina itself fails to form correctly.

The procedure described won't work for men, because the male peritoneum doesn't contain any müllerian progenitor tissue. Any "neovagina" constructed in a man, using the described method, would decay as any other "neo vagina", being interpreted as an open wound that needs to be closed.

 

[Resident Evil]

@ryu289 For future reference, you really shouldn’t link your user to anything else on the internet, or people will pick apart your profile to make a thread about you. Like, that’s super basic kiwi etiquette. Be careful in the future.

 

[Baloney Face]

... an open wound that needs to be closed.

Gotta stress this bit. This is the central fact to be accounted for.

But I'll pin it down even more.
Yes "needs to be closed". But also "will close itself naturally if left alone".
That is assuming it doesn't go gangrenous as it very well might.

---

BTW, isn't it worth noting how often these things go gangrenous compared to surgery in general?

 

[KateHikes14]

Or that the head doesn't fall off to get eaten by a dog

 

[teriyakiburns]

Gotta stress this bit. This is the central fact to be accounted for.

But I'll pin it down even more.
Yes "needs to be closed". But also "will close itself naturally if left alone".
That is assuming it doesn't go gangrenous as it very well might.

---

BTW, isn't it worth noting how often these things go gangrenous compared to surgery in general?

It's also worth mentioning that, at the end of the paper, the describe the neovagina being connected to the uterus (though they don't name it explicitly), which provides structural support and - at risk of anthropomorphising biological function - a justification for the vagina to exist. The female interior "expects" a vagina to be present, so the surgical creation of one from appropriate tissue won't be rejected.

 

[Doppio Vinegar]

Despite Teriyakiburns proving that this is now a completely irrelevant topic - we're talking about men pretending to have vaginas, not women repairing where their vaginas should be - I figured I should still touch on your false optimism, ryu289.

So...it says the opposite of what you claimed? Can you even read?

"The ability of normal vagina to be a potentially closed space is due to elastic tissue present in the substratum. The LPV procedure results in normal vaginal cavity and lining, but still fails to produce the vaginal substratum containing elastic tissue." Essentially, despite what you claim, this article is merely stating that the cheek tissue is assimilating to the walls of the vagina. It creates a lubricated, soft wall of the vagina and behaves according to how a vagina should behave, but doesn't have any of the elasticity that a normal vagina would have that would allow it to remain "closed" and not have a hole constantly open in your crotch.

This is similar to... say, a skin graft from your thigh to your inner arm. It wouldn't reject, and it'd functionally work and look the same, but you'd now have a patch of your inner arm that's covered in hair. After all, this is still skin from your thigh, and is therefore covered in hair follicles. It's not a perfect fix but it works to the best of its ability.

Basically it's not "becoming vaginal tissue," it's still peritoneal tissue that's just assimilating to where it was grafted. It will have differences in cellular biology in order to function properly in the vagina, but it's not going to spontaneously replicate a vagina. Men have zero chance at having peritoneal tissue in the rot pockets, so the topic is moot anyways.

---

This links to your post, Teriyaki! How exciting! (Oh, also, the only person supporting ryu's point in this thread says that neovaginas can get cancerous lesions from HPV, so they're real vaginas. How feminine!)

If you come here and talk about the "anecdotal evidence" that has zero sources behind it and is just hearsay you found on Reddit, we're all going to laugh at you. Back up your cope with at least one trustworthy source and don't make any further of a clown out of yourself.

 

[Fentanyl Floyd]

lol he doesn't haven't a clue about anything. he just posts whatever reddit trannies tell him.

Is it true that after vaginoplasty surgery, the tissue that was previously the penis literally develops into actual, differentiated vaginal tissue

I got the info for that from [here](https://web.archive.org/web/20031125030637/http://www.gendercare.com/library/italiano_paper1.html)

old.reddit.com

Is it true that after vaginoplasty surgery, the tissue that was previ…

archived 3 Sep 2021 17:34:02 UTC

archive.md

 

[What the shit]

Ryu is a faggot real tawk.

 

[Catloaf]

looks like he got btfo'd by the troons themselves archive

 

[Marvin]

It is clear from all the complications and variations in sexual development that the ideas of male and female are not so simple for many people. Intersexed conditions are more common than once thought, with 1/1000 people having chromosomal intersexuality, and 1/100 having atypical body development. If being transgender involves an intersexed brain condition (and it does), then the fractions are even lower.

How, then, do we define male and female? Is it by chromosomes? But chromosomes are only the blueprint; the body can develop quite differently than planned. Is it by body structure? But the body’s physical development can be ambiguous, mixed, or in opposition to both chromosomes and gender identity. Is it hormones? But hormones can be unpredictable, and all they do is bring forth the already latent potential for masculinity or femininity. Is it by brain sex? For people who have transgender identities, determining their maleness or femaleness based on their brain sex or brain id makes the most sense, although others seem to think it delusional.

All intersex disorders are sex specific. Only males can have de la Chapelle syndome; only females can have Swyer syndrome.

In mammals, sex is one of two development pathways individuals take. Males develop towards the production of small, mobile gametes called sperm. Females develop towards the production of larger, immobile gametes called ova.

It is not necessary all the time for said gametes to actually be produced by an individual, for medical science to still be capable of sexing the individual. Medical science is capable of recognizing that a male with a vasectomy is still male, not female, never was female, and never would've had the capacity to produce ovum.

Sexing mammals is straightforwards the vast, vast majority of the time. With a small number of pathological cases, it can be more difficult, but the tests do exist.

Intersex conditions are extremely rare (about 2 in 10k births). Unfortunately, intersex is not a medical term, but a political term, and there's recently been a push by various attention whores to expand the term to include more and more conditions. It's getting to the point where they'll start trying to include small penised men as intersex. But having a small or larger dick doesn't make someone more or less male; sex is binary, either you are of the sex class that produces sperm or you're not.

In fact, beyond just dragging in more irrelevant medical conditions, intersex fakers are a really big problem in the community too. There's some prominent intersex activists that are almost certainly lying about their disorders. They don't have them. (example: anyone claiming to have CAIS cannot grow a beard, thus if you see someone with a beard and CAIS, they're lying)

Finally: there is no such thing, medically, as "intersexed brains".

 

[ryu289]

@ryu289 Maybe you should try to read. The study repeatedly speaks of Müllerian structures. The müllerian duct isn't present in natal men (where the müllerian analogue is vestigial and atrophies away in the first trimester). In natal women, the Müllerian duct is the structure that differentiates into the fallopian tubes, uterus, and upper vagina in utero, which opens out to the urogenital slit to form the lower vagina and the labia. Müllerian progenitor cells migrate into the peritoneum during this process, even in the extremely rare case where the vagina itself fails to form correctly.

The procedure described won't work for men, because the male peritoneum doesn't contain any müllerian progenitor tissue. Any "neovagina" constructed in a man, using the described method, would decay as any other "neo vagina", being interpreted as an open wound that needs to be closed.

Hmmm...@Doppio Vinegar what do you think?

This is similar to... say, a skin graft from your thigh to your inner arm. It wouldn't reject, and it'd functionally work and look the same, but you'd now have a patch of your inner arm that's covered in hair. After all, this is still skin from your thigh, and is therefore covered in hair follicles. It's not a perfect fix but it works to the best of its ability.

Basically it's not "becoming vaginal tissue," it's still peritoneal tissue that's just assimilating to where it was grafted. It will have differences in cellular biology in order to function properly in the vagina, but it's not going to spontaneously replicate a vagina.

So you are saying it isn't a vagina...but these are still women irregardless. Its the same idea for ciswomen getting neovaginas, they are a replacement albet not quite the real thing. Why can't that apple to mtfs?