Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[The Fair Lady]

Not to burst anyone's bubble here, but there is no "good" side in the Hazbin fandom. It's all awful. Yes, Alfa Lyr and Hating/Nervous Alex have both drawn stuff to provoke Chaggie fans. They're extremely immature and have a "lol don't care Viv hates us anyway" mentality.

But H_A_L_E/Jagged Bailey is also a shitty person and known harasser as well. They're a hardcore Vaggie fan who gets assblasted by the slightest criticism against her, including what they perceive as "hate art." The picture of Alastor skull-fucking Vaggie (drawn by ThatSaltyBobcat) was posted to Privatter and put behind trigger warnings. One of Bailey's friends purposefully ignored said warnings and shared it publicly to start shit. A witch hunt started with Chaggie fans trying to cancel Salty, and after being called out by many, Bailey proceeded to issue an apology to - not Salty - but their followers.

In short? No one involved with the shipping wars is innocent and both sides like to toss out misinformation. Sexuality/representation and ships are apparently all that matter to a lot of these people, especially when Vaggie is involved.

Bonus salt over the infamous skull-fuck picture:

 

[AnOminous]

Not to burst anyone's bubble here, but there is no "good" side in the Hazbin fandom. It's all awful.

Avoid and ignore fandoms. Just look at the content. In this budding franchise, it's actually pretty good.

 

[Life is Hell...]

What the fuck not to powerlevel but I follow Nervous Alex on Instagram and whenever the topic of antis and shipping wars comes up they're always really respectful, like as in "please don't send hate messages or look at it if you don't like what I draw just block me" which to be honest that's all you really should say, so I don't really understand why they're chimping out.
Though I'll at least agree with them on HH having a shit creator and fandom because Viv is a bit nutty and the fandom is rabid 12 year olds to the surprise of absolutely nobody.
Twitter really does bring out the inner retard.

Well.... The fandom certainly went down the toilet very quickly

 

[AnOminous]

I seriously recommend anyone who watches this to read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis first. Because most of this show seems to be a direct insult and attack on that very work. Seriously, read Screwtape Letters and then watch all of Viv's works. This is a really good direct attack on Christianity and the idea of Hell and redemption itself. And if you aren't aware of the counter-arguments, it might just completely convince you. You shouldn't let it do that, though.

It's pretty weird. It's some out-there nearly-anime pilot that expresses actual thoughts. Is that even allowed in current year?

 

[Racist Trash]

I seriously recommend anyone who watches this to read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis first. Because most of this show seems to be a direct insult and attack on that very work. Seriously, read Screwtape Letters and then watch all of Viv's works. This is a really good direct attack on Christianity and the idea of Hell and redemption itself. And if you aren't aware of the counter-arguments, it might just completely convince you. You shouldn't let it do that, though.

It's pretty weird. It's some out-there nearly-anime pilot that expresses actual thoughts. Is that even allowed in current year?

Oh yeah C.S. Lewis was very Christian orientated wasn't he? Like gotta cram it into every nook and cranny of my work Christian.

 

[AnOminous]

Oh yeah C.S. Lewis was very Christian orientated wasn't he? Like gotta cram it into every nook and cranny of my work Christian.

C.S. Lewis was a very apologetic (in the original sense) Christian. I don't mean this in some insulting sense, actually the opposite. If you reject Christianity, Lewis has an argument for you. I really think Vivzie has to have at least considered his arguments in favor of Christianity, because arguments against it are featured heavily in this cartoon.

Alastor in particular appears to be almost a personification of the Devil's arguments. He is literally there apparently to defend and make it possible for redemption to exist, by making it possible for the very space to exist. Despite this, he openly does not view redemption itself as possible. He is apparently doing it for his own amusement. What if a soul actually wants to be redeemed? What if a soul does everything possible? Will Alastor just shove them back into Hell? Or will he just stand aside?

Think about this. This foul-mouthed cartoon actually is presenting some pretty deep issues.

Think about this. Where is your soul going? And why? Can you change it? Would you if you could?

ETA: also most of this is actually really fucking funny as presented in the show. Seriously you should watch it. There are jokes and stuff. It just also actually throws in some thunks.

 

[Private Pyle]

Well.... The fandom certainly went down the toilet very quickly

To be fair, what fandom hasn’t in the past decades? As the others above pointed out, it’s best to just ignore fandoms completely and enjoy the show/game/book for what it is.
It may just be my cynicism talking but I just see this as yet another day in online fan communities.

 

[Daddy's Little Kitten]

To be fair, what fandom hasn’t in the past decades? As the others above pointed out, it’s best to just ignore fandoms completely and enjoy the show/game/book for what it is.
It may just be my cynicism talking but I just see this as yet another day in online fan communities.

I agree. It's better to ignore other people and just enjoy shit for yourself.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

C.S. Lewis was a very apologetic (in the original sense) Christian. I don't mean this in some insulting sense, actually the opposite. If you reject Christianity, Lewis has an argument for you. I really think Vivzie has to have at least considered his arguments in favor of Christianity, because arguments against it are featured heavily in this cartoon.

Alastor in particular appears to be almost a personification of the Devil's arguments. He is literally there apparently to defend and make it possible for redemption to exist, by making it possible for the very space to exist. Despite this, he openly does not view redemption itself as possible. He is apparently doing it for his own amusement. What if a soul actually wants to be redeemed? What if a soul does everything possible? Will Alastor just shove them back into Hell? Or will he just stand aside?

Think about this. This foul-mouthed cartoon actually is presenting some pretty deep issues.

Think about this. Where is your soul going? And why? Can you change it? Would you if you could?

ETA: also most of this is actually really fucking funny as presented in the show. Seriously you should watch it. There are jokes and stuff. It just also actually throws in some thunks.

It's funny you should say that, because while I don't really see the Screwtape Letters here, I thought that it DID raise some pretty profound theological issues about about universal and/or post-mortem salvation. Both of which are sort of making a comeback recently. I'd be hard pressed to believe any of the major creative minds behind the show are practicing Christians (though maybe formerly?), but still. I really can't make up my mind if it's intentional or just something that emerged from the narrative.

 

[AnOminous]

It's funny you should say that, because while I don't really see the Screwtape Letters here, I thought that it DID raise some pretty profound theological issues about about universal and/or post-mortem salvation. Both of which are sort of making a comeback recently. I'd be hard pressed to believe any of the major creative minds behind the show are practicing Christians (though maybe formerly?), but still. I really can't make up my mind if it's intentional or just something that emerged from the narrative.

Alastor in particular strikes me as almost being Screwtape, in that he actually does appear to disapprove, on some moral level, with demons like Angel Dust. This is somewhat ironic in that apparently Alastor was actually a serial killer in his pre-Hell life. How does he get off pretending to be moral in Hell? I'm not sure. There's no way a show like this somehow presents the basic concepts of Calvinism and its counter-arguments without people who wrote the show being aware of them beforehand. You don't just do this accidentally.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Alastor in particular strikes me as almost being Screwtape, in that he actually does appear to disapprove, on some moral level, with demons like Angel Dust. This is somewhat ironic in that apparently Alastor was actually a serial killer in his pre-Hell life. How does he get off pretending to be moral in Hell? I'm not sure. There's no way a show like this somehow presents the basic concepts of Calvinism and its counter-arguments without people who wrote the show being aware of them beforehand. You don't just do this accidentally.

Hazbin looks to me like it's tackling a more general question in Christian theology: Is anyone past the point of redemption? Even after death? Alastor says that redemption in life might be possible, but death closes that door. Charlie says otherwise. She doesn't articulate it the way a Christian might (the infinite love and mercy of God), but she sees good even in demons and murderers, and believes they can be redeemed. Who's right? We'll find out.

I'm not sure what concepts of Calvinism you mean? There's no predestination or anything like that here as far as I can tell. Alastor himself says that there's a chance for redemption in life. The teacher in Helluva Boss thinks her punishment is unfair when balanced against the rest of her life, but she never denies that she made a choice to go on a murder spree. I guess imps and other creatures born in hell might be an exception, but I don't think most Christian versions of hell believe any creatures like that actually exist.

To me, Hazbin hell looks very William Blake (The Marriage of Heaven and Hell), at least at surface level. A place of energy, freedom, and personal pleasure. That's how a lot of the inhabitants seem to see it, anyway. Where it starts to diverge and break down is with Angel at the end of Addict, who seems to be right on the edge of a revelation that it all comes at too high a price. In the end, sin really makes you a slave, either to someone else (Valentino) or just to sin itself. I am VERY interested to see where that goes.

Now bringing that back around to Lewis... if they did read him, I think they must've skipped The Great Divorce. Even the title is a conscious counter against Blake. THAT vision of hell takes most of the fire out of the whole enterprise (pun intended). Not trying to be contrarian here, but by total coincidence I happened to read the Screwtape Letters recently, and I guess I'm just not seeing the parallels.

 

[AnOminous]

Something that actually bugs me. Why the fuck are the French lyrics to Addict so much better than the English ones?

 

[The Ultimate Ramotith]

Something that actually bugs me. Why the fuck are the French lyrics to Addict so much better than the English ones?

Everything sounds better in French. /joke/

 

[AnOminous]

Everything sounds better in French. /joke/

Maybe it's just easier to sound Baudelairean in French. They seem to like a spondaic prosody also. It's hard to do that in English.

I should try to explain what I mean. It's tough. I'm not French, I barely know French, and I certainly can't explain it, but I can try to explain Baudelaire. Most of his poetry was written in alexandrines, and this kind of line is a hexameter. That is to say, it is a six foot line, and poetic meters (as alexandrines are in any language) work the same way in any language. Hexameters are what epic poetry like the Aeneid were written in.

However, while being written in hexameter, the most remembered epic poems were written in dactylic hexameter, armo virumque cano and so on. French alexandrines of the sort Baudelaire wrote were generally spondaic. Dactylics or iambics, of the sort we love in English, generally step on and off the accent. Spondaic, though, involves a very slight accent or none at all. The accent falls, or does not fall, on any given syllable.

If you're used to English, you actually try to put some meaning on the place where the syllable crashes into meaning. You can't really do this in French. Baudelaire routinely used this to emphasize something like a lack of meaning. It's nearly impossible to translate something like this into English.

Anyway I don't even think this is relevant but I think the French version of Addict is somehow ridiculously better than the English one. Translations are always less than an actual version in one language of something in another. They're generally more like a shipwreck of one language into another.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

One more shower thought I had on Alastor, as to why he's doing what he's doing for Charlie. I think it's more personal than theological. As he said, he wants to see Charlie's clients fail. Why? It may be just that he's a psychopath, but I think there's something else going on.

He wants Charlie to fail for the same reason he says hell is the end of redemption. He WANTS to be irredeemable. Because if someone like, say, Angel, went through the Hotel and escaped hell, that would prove that people can change. And if they CAN get better, that would imply that they SHOULD get better. Alastor might find that he has a choice and a duty to be something better than he is. And for somebody like him who seems quite comfortable in his current position, wouldn't THAT be terrifying?

 

[AnOminous]

One more shower thought I had on Alastor, as to why he's doing what he's doing for Charlie. I think it's more personal than theological. As he said, he wants to see Charlie's clients fail. Why? It may be just that he's a psychopath, but I think there's something else going on.

He wants Charlie to fail for the same reason he says hell is the end of redemption. He WANTS to be irredeemable. Because if someone like, say, Angel, went through the Hotel and escaped hell, that would prove that people can change. And if they CAN get better, that would imply that they SHOULD get better. Alastor might find that he has a choice and a duty to be something better than he is. And for somebody like him who seems quite comfortable in his current position, wouldn't THAT be terrifying?

Alastor, like most of the characters in the show, actually had a life on Earth. I don't think they've gone into it in much detail, but he was a serial killer. Unlike other characters (like Angel Dust) he was a genuine monster. His hostility to redemption probably has a lot to do with his own acts.

Charlie is interesting in that she was actually born in Hell. It's not her fault that she is there.

 

[The Fair Lady]

Alastor, like most of the characters in the show, actually had a life on Earth. I don't think they've gone into it in much detail, but he was a serial killer. Unlike other characters (like Angel Dust) he was a genuine monster. His hostility to redemption probably has a lot to do with his own acts.

Charlie is interesting in that she was actually born in Hell. It's not her fault that she is there.

I don’t know if I would call Alastor a monster, per say. While he was a serial killer he apparently had an ethical code: wouldn’t stalk his victims, preferred not to harm women (most of his victims were men) and wouldn’t harm children. His comic shows that he still doesn’t take kindly to violence towards vulnerable/innocent women when he slaughters the butcher harassing the sheep demon. (By contrast, note how he doesn’t hesitate to smack Vaggie around because of her hostile attitude towards him.) It would seem he killed those whom he felt were deserving of it and values respect.

A popular theory is that Alastor’s father was abusive towards his mother, and that this is what warped his mind and started it all for him. He’s confirmed to have been a mama’s boy. I think he’s just very cynical and jaded from what he experienced when he was human.

 

[One Man Bland]

One more shower thought I had on Alastor, as to why he's doing what he's doing for Charlie. I think it's more personal than theological. As he said, he wants to see Charlie's clients fail. Why? It may be just that he's a psychopath, but I think there's something else going on.

He wants Charlie to fail for the same reason he says hell is the end of redemption. He WANTS to be irredeemable. Because if someone like, say, Angel, went through the Hotel and escaped hell, that would prove that people can change. And if they CAN get better, that would imply that they SHOULD get better. Alastor might find that he has a choice and a duty to be something better than he is. And for somebody like him who seems quite comfortable in his current position, wouldn't THAT be terrifying?

You know, I‘d pretty much written Alastor off as "generic edgy pinstriped dude" that was simply a holdover from early 2000s Hot Topic fashion this show was inspired by, but this gave me pause. If this is the direction they take him, I’d certainly be more invested.

And while I haven’t read the comics, judging by what's been described of his life as a serial killer I wonder if his motives to rise through the ranks in Hell by being as cruel as possible derives from a personal philosophy that the denizens haven‘t suffered enough and he sees himself as a counter balance that rectifies that: serving as a direct foil to Charlie’s redemptive outlook.

 

[The Fair Lady]

You know, I‘d pretty much written Alastor off as "generic edgy pinstriped dude" that was simply a holdover from early 2000s Hot Topic fashion this show was inspired by, but this gave me pause. If this is the direction they take him, I’d certainly be more invested.

And while I haven’t read the comics, judging by what's been described of his life as a serial killer I wonder if his motives to rise through the ranks in Hell by being as cruel as possible derives from a personal philosophy that the denizens haven‘t suffered enough and he sees himself as a counter balance that rectifies that: serving as a direct foil to Charlie’s redemptive outlook.

I highly recommend reading his comic if you want a more in-depth look at Alastor. He's easily the most compelling character so far. When we get around to seeing his past (which was confirmed to eventually happen) I'm sure it'll explain a lot.

 

[AnOminous]

And while I haven’t read the comics, judging by what's been described of his life as a serial killer I wonder if his motives to rise through the ranks in Hell by being as cruel as possible derives from a personal philosophy that the denizens haven‘t suffered enough and he sees himself as a counter balance that rectifies that: serving as a direct foil to Charlie’s redemptive outlook.

I think he sees himself as a sort of prosecutor.