Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

In general, TNOfication is already attested, and almost always attempted, in most mods. Even the brainstorming for contemporary mods builds on TNO designs. For the sake of this thread's sanity, here's some clarity on what is arguably TNOfication and what isn't:

TNOfication is:
  • The tendency to create narrative events with vividly speaking, acting and often feeling characters. These usually supplant HOI4's traditional approach to storytelling –if any is to be observed– based on news reports. The move from a journalistic to a novella-like style is a mark of TNO influence. Event chains in TNO resemble novel fragments more than adventure-game phases, for instance.
  • The presence of representations of culmination, and there are none more common than fucking superevents. Even Kaiserredux fell for this meme. Wherever you see a photo, music and a quote, that's a direct legacy of the mod that cursed a thousand pieces of historical media. Not all superevents are culminative, however. The Yasuda Crisis wasn't particularly so. But HOI4 mods have taken cues from the major ones, all of which were of that kind.​
  • The use of national foci as episodes. Originally, focus trees were meant to develop the potential abilities of a country, usually in political manoeuvring and the economy. They weren't particularly time-based, though some were obviously meant to be more than purely stackable: Germany progressively unlocks its historically-based opportunities to go to war and so on. However, TNOfied mods will turn focus trees into little steps the player takes towards advancing a storyline, usually through events, and the result is the transformation of the tree into a sort of checklist of chapters you are meant to go through. Very often you slog through them more than anything.​
  • The use of multiple non-native GUIs to bolster interactivity. Though this almost a non-TNO characteristic, the mod's influence has definitively pushed modders away from using traditional HOI4 means of representing or interacting with a country's affairs and have pursued, more and more, bloated designs that border on mini-games within a game. There had been extra GUIs before, some of them mini-gamey as well. There hadn't been so many until a certain popular mod based half its content on them. When the Barbarossa DLC released, people actually assumed Paradox had been influenced by TNO in implementing the Stalin mini-game. That's how much TNO influence buried previous iterations of its designs.​
  • The insistence in presenting ideological spectrum disputes and warlord balkanizations:
    • Ideological spectrum disputes almost always pit conservatives against reformists, with some radicals lurking in the background. Certainly, there were cases of this before TNO (Kaiserreich and syndicalists, no less), but TNO's German Civil War and original Japan cemented the idea that countries should almost always find themselves between moderate and radical options. This almost automatically comes up in new mods: "the reformer", "the conservative", "the weird radical", "the military guy"...​
    • Balkanizations occur again and again, especially to decide a country's fate via "reunification". Bonus points if the reunification has a fucking superevent. This is all over the place in HOI4 mods and it has become the laziest way to put forth a great deal of options with some clear gameplay-based objective.​
  • Subideologies. TNO came up with this near-useless, complicating system and mods have given up on ignoring it. No debate.​
  • Extreme, often obscured, hidden, rare, marginal ideologies, especially if it's a single one. Building off the Burgundian System, HOI4 modders now turn to making a certain color on the ideology wheel particularly cursed to make paths interesting. Try and remember that one mod that suggested "ultratotalitarianism," Twilight of the Anthropocene's "Accelerationism" or that other one which also had some "System" ideology. Curiously, Red Flood isn't necessarily one, as their Accelerationism is sort of frequent, diverse and central to the mod.​
  • Excessive color coding to mark the good things, the bad things, and above all the bad things which are unpredictable...
  • Failstates. Before TNO, modders would hardly ever force the collapse of the country you may have succeeded at playing. At most, there's the ambiguous, even admittedly skeptical or uncertain ending you find yourself in. More mods, however, seem to be considering having the player crash for their attempt at playing for too long.​
  • Time-sensitive storytelling. Mods before TNO weren't particularly defined by the years they had content for, much less by how long the player could take to go down successive national foci to advance a story. The gameplay flow was freer, more sandbox-like. TNOfication means turning HOI4 into a visual novel through the unpause button.
TNOfication is not:
  • When a teaser has epithetic names for leaders ("the Caligula", "the Judas"...)
  • When any mini-game is in the decisions tab
  • When a country has a civil war, especially if it is multi-sided (this was actually a product of now forgotten Kaiserfication)
  • When a single or a few events have a non-journalistic style to them
  • When there's a reformist
  • When there's a strange ideology that may or may not be exportable
  • When there's a grimdark vibe
  • When there's some economy besides civilian factories
  • When there's a debate on realism (this is actually a fundamental theme in alt-history media, how some people think it's a result of TNOfication is beyond me)
 
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Subudeologies weren’t a TNO specific thing, they’d been in vanilla since launch and plenty of mods (besides KR) had used them for ages. It was only when Paradox added La Résistance that support for custom subideology icons was added, and even then TNO had zero subideologies at launch. They’re only considered notable due to overdosing on them and inspiring KX’s nauseating number, but they certainly didn’t invent or popularize the concept itself
 
When there's a debate on realism (this is actually a fundamental theme in alt-history media, how some people think it's a result of TNOfication is beyond me)
I think why people usually associate a strong push for 'realism' with TNO is because its most obviously seen in TNO with what could be considered core elements of the mod being removed for the sake of realism in a mod that was never that realistic to begin with.
 
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Subudeologies weren’t a TNO specific thing, they’d been in vanilla since launch and plenty of mods (besides KR) had used them for ages. It was only when Paradox added La Résistance that support for custom subideology icons was added, and even then TNO had zero subideologies at launch. They’re only considered notable due to overdosing on them and inspiring KX’s nauseating number, but they certainly didn’t invent or popularize the concept itself
Subideologies as we know them (with their custom icons, extended families per base ideology and flavor) are essentially a TNO thing. As you say, though, the underlying mechanics were there, but the same applies to certain national foci and even some events which took on a narrative angle as well. Fair point, still.
I think why people usually associate a strong push for 'realism' with TNO is because its most obviously seen in TNO with what could be considered core elements of the mod being removed for the sake of realism in a mod that was never that realistic to begin with.
You're on point, Moja, but it's such a classic thing to kill each other over in alt-history that it shouldn't be considered TNO-related at all. That TNO suffers from this goes on to show it has become the object of some real attention in alt-his, though.
 
The warlords/excessive balkanization is actually something I'm a fan of, on some level, and so it's quite a pain when this sort of scenario is used in combination with other pacekilling TNO tropes. Things like the insanity of the SS civil war, or the (completely skeleton, mind) Moskowien collapse are an interesting idea, as is blurring the lines of what a "nation" is with factions like Dirlewanger or the different military brigades during said examples.

The problem is that what should generally be an interesting war setup becomes a fucking visual novel, and not in a good sense. I think Panzer did somewhat balance this with Heydrich, but pale imitations abound within and without TNO.

I could probably be convinced to express similar opinions about a lot of 'TNOification' tropes, really, but the issue with TNO is that the sum of it's parts are often boring as all hell (and increasingly so, as the mold-breaking fun stuff is gutted so that all four GCW G(ui) C(licking) W(alkthrough) contenders are identical shades of pragmatist, so that the "cold war dynamic" of nothing happening is respected).
 
I think so, it was supposed to be the big space update for TNO.
Excessive color coding to mark the good things, the bad things, and above all the bad things which are unpredictable...
TNO really does go overboard with this, defeating the purpose of highlighting the important parts of the text, it's one of the things I'm surprised they haven't realized themselves.
 
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Apparently the Looney Troonies over at TNO are cutting the entire space update because they banned the main person working on it.
>the player cannot be expected to pay attention to this
to what should the player pay attention? Theres literally nothing else going on or are they concerned that the player will miss the event pop up lmao
 
How do you all feel about the Fallout Mod? I know they've been slow with updates and adding fanon stuff instead of the East Coast but I like it, even if the dev team spergs about Enclave fans. There isn't much troon shit, if any, in the mod. There is a BoS chapter in the midwest led by some Lesbians buts thats cool I guess.
 
@OMCK has a degree in TNO-ology. Incredible post. The most glaring TNO-ification I see in mods are the long, drawn out narrative driven events and the push for more storytelling with recurring characters, dialogue, twists and endings.
 
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A minor nitpick compared to everything else about this shit show is for a game that likes to punish player choice especially if you were unwholesome in their eyes, America does not really have this. Like say you get Wallace or Thurmond as presidents. You get a mini focus tree you can complete in like a few months that removes their racism essentially. Having looked into TNO's files before and found this in Thurmond's focus tree.


Which was a note one of the devs left for other devs who might come into it. I can't help but feel they did it since they can't stand the idea of their side losing, even in a fictional story they themselves wrote. Aside from them the only other presidents that have response trees are RFK and Bennet. Basically I'd rather have the U.S have to deal with the fact that Wallace or Thurmond had cemented segregation in America then having the mod try to "fix" it. As it kinda takes away even from the shitty story if the racism man's racism doesn't matter if even his own party can just magic away the racism.
So the implication is that Wallace should have won because then America would have abandoned racism as a single mass rather than used it as a wedge issue that still dominates politics 60 years later?
 
The warlords/excessive balkanization is actually something I'm a fan of, on some level, and so it's quite a pain when this sort of scenario is used in combination with other pacekilling TNO tropes. Things like the insanity of the SS civil war, or the (completely skeleton, mind) Moskowien collapse are an interesting idea, as is blurring the lines of what a "nation" is with factions like Dirlewanger or the different military brigades during said examples.

The problem is that what should generally be an interesting war setup becomes a fucking visual novel, and not in a good sense. I think Panzer did somewhat balance this with Heydrich, but pale imitations abound within and without TNO.

I could probably be convinced to express similar opinions about a lot of 'TNOification' tropes, really, but the issue with TNO is that the sum of it's parts are often boring as all hell (and increasingly so, as the mold-breaking fun stuff is gutted so that all four GCW G(ui) C(licking) W(alkthrough) contenders are identical shades of pragmatist, so that the "cold war dynamic" of nothing happening is respected).
The SS Civil War, as it's implemented right now where Heydrich does a Ronnie McNutt and that somehow absolves his crimes of being a le evil nazi and everyone claps is pretty disappointing tbh. There's so many more interesting factions in the SSCW and they get sidelined because the devs were too busy making a Heydrich redemption fanfic. Fuck, I want to play as Otto Skorenzy's warlord faction, the Bezerkers, or Sepp Dietrich's LARP knight kingdom, German Joshua Graham, anything but Heytroon!
 
So the implication is that Wallace should have won because then America would have abandoned racism as a single mass rather than used it as a wedge issue that still dominates politics 60 years later?
Honestly it is pretty based of the TNO devs to come out and say the George Wallace was right about blacks and government. Didn't expect that from leftoids like them.

The SS Civil War, as it's implemented right now where Heydrich does a Ronnie McNutt and that somehow absolves his crimes of being a le evil nazi and everyone claps is pretty disappointing tbh. There's so many more interesting factions in the SSCW and they get sidelined because the devs were too busy making a Heydrich redemption fanfic. Fuck, I want to play as Otto Skorenzy's warlord faction, the Bezerkers, or Sepp Dietrich's LARP knight kingdom, German Joshua Graham, anything but Heytroon!

Heydrich's redemption path is weird and a little creepy to be honest. Guy was a brutal and genocidal military dictator during his administration of Bohemia and Moravia, not to mention his other positions. Why people want to write fanfics about him being secretly a good guy and just misunderstood is beyond me.

You wanting to portray him as human, and not a caricature of evil is one thing. What TNO does is another.
 
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How do you all feel about the Fallout Mod? I know they've been slow with updates and adding fanon stuff instead of the East Coast but I like it, even if the dev team spergs about Enclave fans. There isn't much troon shit, if any, in the mod. There is a BoS chapter in the midwest led by some Lesbians buts thats cool I guess.
Its not my cup of tea and everytime I've played it I find I just snowball out of control a bit too easy but it nice to see something new out there.
 
I think so, it was supposed to be the big space update for TNO.

TNO really does go overboard with this, defeating the purpose of highlighting the important parts of the text, it's one of the things I'm surprised they haven't realized themselves.
the guangdong focuses are notorious for this lol
 
How do you all feel about the Fallout Mod? I know they've been slow with updates and adding fanon stuff instead of the East Coast but I like it, even if the dev team spergs about Enclave fans. There isn't much troon shit, if any, in the mod. There is a BoS chapter in the midwest led by some Lesbians buts thats cool I guess.
I'll give it a chance when they finish the East Coast.
Aka Never
 
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