Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

What I don't get is how she got to lieutenant commander in the first place. She's the ship's counselor, yet she outranks the chief of security.

I think it's a security clearance thing. To have access to personal records, they made her that rank. You really can't let some ensign evaluating those documents.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

What I don't get is how she got to lieutenant commander in the first place. She's the ship's counselor, yet she outranks the chief of security.

She and Beverly are two of the few who can give all officials, including the captain, an order to be removed from command. Just because they don't work at command, doesn't mean their job ain't important or doesn't have any hierarchy. A junior engineer does an important job, but if the engineer is psychotic, she or he needs to be removed. Geordi might not notice that, but both Beverly and Deanna do and they have the final word due to their authority over, in this case, even Geordi. They can tell if this person needs just a few days off or if they need to be permanently sent home, which can end their career. Geordi can only do a report on their job, but this person can do a superb job, yet being mentally unwell and unfit to serve in any starship.

IRL, doctors join the military all the time and depending on their type of place or experience, they enter with a certain high rank. Here, I checked, you enter as a Lt. or a Captain and you can get the top rank (General) if you do a good job. I'm assuming Beverly earned the commander rank according to her job as a doctor, just like any IRL doctor would earn higher ranks not because they're dodging bullets, but because their service as doctors is top notch. Also, we don't see it, but Beverly's been around in Starfleet. Riker's barely 30 when he was promoted as first officer with a grade of Commander, and Beverly's about a decade older. Deanna is also in her late 20s, so she also has some experience as a psychologist, reason why she was sent to the flagship.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

(and he would then of course get promoted for gallant service, but it's why he stalled out until he went to DS9 and finally got to command the USS Ben Sisko's Motherfuckin' Pimp Hand)

That I always found funny and odd. Like, Dax and Kira are of equal rank with Worf. Like, do they draw straws on who's to command the boat when Sisko isn't in the mood for that? Or is it decided by seniority, but that'd mean Kira is always in command when Sisko isn't around. What the fuck is going on with that...

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

That I always found funny and odd. Like, Dax and Kira are of equal rank with Worf. Like, do they draw straws on who's to command the boat when Sisko isn't in the mood for that? Or is it decided by seniority, but that'd mean Kira is always in command when Sisko isn't around. What the fuck is going on with that...

It could depend on the situation, like how Worf's speciality is away missions on his mobile home the Defiant.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

That I always found funny and odd. Like, Dax and Kira are of equal rank with Worf. Like, do they draw straws on who's to command the boat when Sisko isn't in the mood for that? Or is it decided by seniority, but that'd mean Kira is always in command when Sisko isn't around. What the fuck is going on with that...

Not to belittle the DS9 crew, but I suppose is harder to climb up when your competition is Data or Geordi from the USS Enterprise. The reason why Worf did a tremendous job in DS9 was in fact due to the strong experience he got serving with Picard first and they know it.

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Not to belittle the DS9 crew, but I suppose is harder to climb up when your competition is Data or Geordi from the USS Enterprise. The reason why Worf did a tremendous job in DS9 was in fact due to the strong experience he got serving with Picard first and they know it.

Oh, there was that one time he fucked up a sting operation Odo was doing. Or that other time he joined a bunch of (frankly: based) terrorists on Risa. Or that time he nearly got his ass deported to the Klingon Empire for a war crimes trial. Or that other time his mind was poisoned by a sword and he nearly got Kor killed over it. At least his mortal enemies - plastic barrels - didn't follow him to DS9.

Nah, Worf is awesome.

 

[Captain Syrup]

It could depend on the situation, like how Worf's speciality is away missions on his mobile home the Defiant.

That I always found funny and odd. Like, Dax and Kira are of equal rank with Worf. Like, do they draw straws on who's to command the boat when Sisko isn't in the mood for that?

Kira is on loan from the Bajoran militia. It’s diplomacy. “See? We’re not the Cardassians. We hired a freedom fighter. We're different.”

But who’s in charge of the Defiant when Sisko’s gone? Is it Kira or Worf? It’s not Dax. She’s the science lady but she also flies the ship for some reason.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

She and Beverly are two of the few who can give all officials, including the captain, an order to be removed from command. Just because they don't work at command, doesn't mean their job ain't important or doesn't have any hierarchy.

Great point. I didn't think about it that way. I guess it's hard to remember the importance of a counselor when Deanna is the counselor in question.

Not to belittle the DS9 crew, but I suppose is harder to climb up when your competition is Data or Geordi from the USS Enterprise. The reason why Worf did a tremendous job in DS9 was in fact due to the strong experience he got serving with Picard first and they know it.

It helps that while Picard was a pansy who kept Worf from fighting and blowing stuff up for "diplomatic" reasons, Sisko recruited Worf when they needed a guy whose entire job was to fight and blow stuff up.

Oh, there was that one time he fucked up a sting operation Odo was doing. Or that other time he joined a bunch of (frankly: based) terrorists on Risa. Or that time he nearly got his ass deported to the Klingon Empire for a war crimes trial. Or that other time his mind was poisoned by a sword and he nearly got Kor killed over it. At least his mortal enemies - plastic barrels - didn't follow him to DS9.

Nah, Worf is awesome.

Didn't Odo keep track of all the security infractions on the Enterprise just to take the piss out of him?

But who’s in charge of the Defiant when Sisko’s gone? Is it Kira or Worf? It’s not Dax. She’s the science lady but she also flies the ship for some reason.

Maybe it's a dual-command situation? Discovery did something similar with Pike and Saru sort of sharing command of the ship thanks to the latter's familiarity with it.

It could also follow the chain of command. Chakotay and Tuvok were the same rank but Chakotay is still First Officer and in charge when Janeway’s not around.

 

[Flexo]

That I always found funny and odd. Like, Dax and Kira are of equal rank with Worf. Like, do they draw straws on who's to command the boat when Sisko isn't in the mood for that? Or is it decided by seniority, but that'd mean Kira is always in command when Sisko isn't around. What the fuck is going on with that...

Since you got the autism going...

Kira is technically not a rank, she's an outside service member "on loan" to the Federation because the Bajorans need help administrating the space station they are now in charge of. It makes sense for her to take over DS9 when Sisko is not around. From a paperwork perspective, she should really be the one in charge of the place, Sisko is just showing her how to do it.

Forget in command, why she is ever on board the Defiant - a Federation warship - is the real question. Really her whole participation on there could have led to some very thorny diplomatic faux pas had the Cardassians or Romulans been so inclined. Her in command of the Defiant during the amassing that nearly got all the fleets wiped out over Dax is downright confusing. (Of course in real life it's because she's a main actor with her name in the credits.)

Dax is more of a question, especially given her multiple lifetimes of experiences, but in this case we at least have the excuse that she's in blue, Worf is in red, so he gets command as the tiebreaker when matching rank with her.

 

[TenMilesWide]

also why would Picard be friends with her? She was Janeway's pet project.

The writers said "well he was a borg that one time and she's the borg character, of course they'd be friends" but I can also imagine Janeway doing something like that.
"Seven, now that we're back in Federation space I've taken the liberty of enrolling you in some 'etiquette for borg converts' classes, I hear they've got the foremost former drones in Starfleet teaching them - Three of Five and Locutus."

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

But who’s in charge of the Defiant when Sisko’s gone? Is it Kira or Worf? It’s not Dax. She’s the science lady but she also flies the ship for some reason.

Dax has a Level 3 pilot license. But who's in command? Technically the feisty Bajoran terrorist, since Kira is Sisko's 2IC per some complicated diplomatic legalese bullshit Picard unloaded on Sisko in season 1.

Didn't Odo keep track of all the security infractions on the Enterprise just to take the piss out of him?

That he indeed did. Odo has tabs on everyone.

Since you got the autism going...

Kira is technically not a rank, she's an outside service member "on loan" to the Federation because the Bajorans need help administrating the space station they are now in charge of. It makes sense for her to take over DS9 when Sisko is not around. From a paperwork perspective, she should really be the one in charge of the place, Sisko is just showing her how to do it.

Forget in command, why she is ever on board the Defiant - a Federation warship - is the real question. Really her whole participation on there could have led to some very thorny diplomatic faux pas had the Cardassians or Romulans been so inclined. Her in command of the Defiant during the amassing that nearly got all the fleets wiped out over Dax is downright confusing. (Of course in real life it's because she's a main actor with her name in the credits.)

Dax is more of a question, especially given her multiple lifetimes of experiences, but in this case we at least have the excuse that she's in blue, Worf is in red, so he gets command as the tiebreaker when matching rank with her.

Kira held the rank of Major, which is the equivalent of a Lieutenant-Commander in Starfleet, for longer than Dax and Worf combined. So, when Sisko is not there, for whatever reason, she's nominally in charge of everything, including the Defiant. At least she would have a say in if the ship gets permission to undock/dock and in the flight plan through Bajoran space.

You know, Dukat never asking "what business has Kira being on the Defiant and why does she have command-level access codes and overrides? The fuck is this, I mean it's hot and all, but... you know?" when Tom Riker captured the ship is just so out of character for him. He would have placed Sisko under arrest to regain access to Bajoran pussy, that's what he'd do.

But I agree. Normally, it should be Dax, because after Kira, she's Sisko's second officer in most cases, and she should be able to pull rank on Worf since seniority exists and regardless of department.


>tfw DS9's chain of command exists in a weird quantum state that'd make Schroedinger blush

 

[Flexo]

Makes it even more autisticly confusing when you remember Kira was given a Starfleet Commission to lead the Cardassian underground.

Kira held the rank of Major, which is the equivalent of a Lieutenant-Commander in Starfleet, for longer than Dax and Worf combined. So, when Sisko is not there, for whatever reason, she's nominally in charge of everything, including the Defiant. At least she would have a say in if the ship gets permission to undock/dock and in the flight plan through Bajoran space.

Literally not possible because the Bajoran government wasn't that old. She had an equivalent rank in the underground resistance but... that won't exactly mean squat to real officers.

Also unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure militaries don't care what your rank is if you're not one of them. If some British guy showed up on an American boat, it doesn't matter if his rank (High Tea Brigadier or whatever they use) is the highest in Britain, if the captain of the American ship goes down, the next in command will be the next American officer. Now if things go bad enough, the troops might defer to the other officer out of some respect that he has knowledge and experience they can use, but officially the rank means bugger all unless there's been some updates I'm unaware of.

I'm currently doing a check of how many episodes there were with Kira and Worf both on the Defiant... with Sisko out of commission (otherwise all 3 are aboard) and so far I've just found 1.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starship_Down_(episode)

And in that it seems like Worf takes command when Sisko goes down. (To be fair, Kira was taking care of Sisko.)

Anyone else think of any others?

As further evidence, I'll point out 2E has only 1 of the 20 Kira be a defiant commander.



Meanwhile, Worf, with only 16 versions, has 2 defiant commanders.

You know, Dukat never asking "what business has Kira being on the Defiant and why does she have command-level access codes and overrides? The fuck is this, I mean it's hot and all, but... you know?" when Tom Riker captured the ship is just so out of character for him. He would have placed Sisko under arrest to regain access to Bajoran pussy, that's what he'd do.

But I agree. Normally, it should be Dax, because after Kira, she's Sisko's second officer in most cases, and she should be able to pull rank on Worf since seniority exists and regardless of department.

Did Kira have the ability to set the self destruct on the Defiant? That really DOES put some questions out there.

How does seniority in the navy work on this?

Worf has been in service longer than Dax's current body, but Jadzia has been on DS9 longer than Worf. Which way would seniority go there traditionally?

 

[Captain Syrup]

Makes it even more autisticly confusing when you remember Kira was given a Starfleet Commission to lead the Cardassian underground.

Kira put on that Starfleet drip and did the exact same job she always did. It's like when your job makes you put on a polo so the visiting CEO thinks you’re “professional", she immediately switches back to the Bajoran outfit for the ending. She changed those uniforms less than I change my sheets.

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

iirc even DS9 got into the general clusterfuck for chain of command within the station a few times

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Did Kira have the ability to set the self destruct on the Defiant? That really DOES put some questions out there.

How does seniority in the navy work on this?

Worf has been in service longer than Dax's current body, but Jadzia has been on DS9 longer than Worf. Which way would seniority go there traditionally?

I actually checked. Worf is the senior officer, by having earned his promotion a couple months before Jadzia did. There's some hypothetical legal bullshit Dax could pull to assert her dominance, in particular related to bellyworm-shenanigans, but that's arcane and probably wouldn't apply even if she tried.

And yes, Kira had the command key for the Defiant. That unlocked all bridge functions, including weapons, and by that: the auto-destruct-"fuck you"-button. If I were Dukat, I'd raise some serious questions with Sisko about his opsec.

 

[Flexo]

Kira put on that Starfleet drip and did the exact same job she always did. It's like when your job makes you put on a polo so the visiting CEO thinks you’re “professional", she immediately switches back to the Bajoran outfit for the ending. She changed those uniforms less than I change my sheets.

Yes we know that. The discussion is about a member of another military being suddenly put in charge of a major galactic superpower's warship without that commission.

And yes, Kira had the command key for the Defiant. That unlocked all bridge functions, including weapons, and by that: the auto-destruct-"fuck you"-button. If I were Dukat, I'd raise some serious questions with Sisko about his opsec.

Yeah. THAT is a big question.

We know Dukat would bring up the issues, but you also got to know the Romulans had a ton of a questions about this too. (I kind of wish they had made a romulan advisor a cast regular.)

 

[Curzon Dax-sama]

Yeah. THAT is a big question.

We know Dukat would bring up the issues, but you also got to know the Romulans had a ton of a questions about this too. (I kind of wish they had made a romulan advisor a cast regular.)

Picard gave Sisko a quite broad mandate in the very first episode of DS9. That'd likely include the authority on Sisko's part to select his senior officers regardless of affiliation or nationality. The only rule he wasn't allowed to break was the Prime Directive with regards to Bajor, but that's more of a political issue that doesn't touch military affairs, DS9's HR and logistics. Oh wait. It's not, and I shall explain:

Dukat grilling Sisko on this stuff would have been awesome, and Dukat would have been in the right to do so. With regards to the Romulans, it gets even weirder, given that the Bajorans outright banned cloaking devices in their territory. Okay, so, now the Defiant has a cloak they're only supposed to use in the GQ, but Sisko never really bothered to check the fine print on the arrangement for that one and used it whenever he felt like it. So, not only broke the man an interstellar treaty the Federation had with the Romulans, nope, he also broke Bajoran law by using the Pimphand while cloaked in Bajoran space. The mere posession of a cloaking device nearly got Quark imprisoned.


>tfw this is the kind of nonsense people expect from Janeway
>tfw this is the kind of bullshit why people shit on Janeway
>tfw people have gone to the space can over less
>tfw the entire senior staff of DS9 should be sitting in a Bajoran penal colony
>tfw the entire senior staff of DS9 should be handed to the Romulans to mine dilithium on Remus, after they're relased from Bajoran custody

 

[AnOminous]

Every time Worf got his ass kicked by an alien, he got demoted.

And that was such a TNG cliche. Oh yeah here's Worf getting his ass kicked again just to show the bad guy is actually really a threat.

 

[Flexo]

It is funny sometimes to think about DS9 as if it were our world.

Like if Italy banned nukes from their borders.
"Sir, the Pope has acquired a nuclear weapon."
"I have no problem with this!"

 

[Travoltron]

And that was such a TNG cliche. Oh yeah here's Worf getting his ass kicked again just to show the bad guy is actually really a threat.

I think maybe TOS had the right idea not having the security chief as a main character. Just show redshirts getting zapped to get that point across in your story.