The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Monster]

This thread is going in circles. Why not ask more defining questions about each belief and sperg about the answers?

Pro-choice users, what do you consider the moment when a pregnancy can no longer be terminated? Is there one?
Pro-life users, what do you consider the responsibility of the community for these newborns? Is the system for adoption as it is now capable of supporting the influx put into the system?

 

[Eris!]

what do you consider the responsibility of the community for these newborns?

If by community you mean their family, church, neighbors, etc, then their responsibility is to help the mother raise her child. Anything from helping babysit to giving her money to whatever. Obviously the first person who should be doing all that is the father, and any deviation from that is the result of something going wrong or bad choices being made.
If by community you mean me, a total stranger who knows neither the mother or the baby, or the state, a bunch of men with guns who will physically rob me to force my compassion, then nothing. There is no responsibility there.

Is the system for adoption as it is now capable of supporting the influx put into the system?

I categorically don't care and don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.

 

[ADHD]

A zygote is not you, it is a precedant of you. You begin to exist at conception

A zygote is the result of a sperm fertilizing an egg. If a person begins to exist at conception, how do they not then start as zygotes?

 

[Eris!]

You mean a sperm cell, yeah?

A zygote is the result of a sperm fertilizing an egg. If a person begins to exist at conception, how do they not then start as zygotes?

Gamete, whatever, who cares. You can easily tell from context what I meant.

 

[Parallel Moon]

I'm pro-choice but I guess my cut off for abortion probably about 5 months in for a healthy fetus. After that I think it should only be legal if there is something seriously wrong with it.

For instance, I read an article about a woman who got pregnant but found out that her baby had not developed lungs. She had a late term abortion. The article had a picture of her holding the baby, so it's not like some of those gruesome abortion pictures you see. It seems like they just induced the labor early. Which makes me wonder what the pro-life camp would think of such a thing. Is it murder to them to have an abortion if there is no chance the baby will survive? Should she have just waited a few months and given birth then watched the baby immediately die? I guess in these kinds of cases I don't really see why they would care.

In the case of severely deformed or vegetable babies, well I don't really see anything wrong with having an abortion in that case either. I don't care if people call me a ho or a Hitler, I would have an abortion if the doctor told me that I would be giving birth to a permanent vegetable or a retard. I would never abort a healthy baby though. This is probably the most politically incorrect view that I have, haha.

Disability advocacy groups paint a really rosy picture of what it's like to have a severely disabled child. My life experience has allowed me to see what a lot of the propaganda about Down's and the like doesn't want the rest of us to think about. They use examples of high functioning individuals to make those afflictions seem like less of a burden.

For every Down's syndrome baby that grows up to work at McDonald's and get their own apartment, there are an equal or greater amount that never advances beyond the mental age of three and doesn't understand why they shouldn't smear poop all over the walls or try to make people touch their peepee.

And you can say that it's not your problem but eventually those people will be cared for by taxpayer dollars whether its through disability checks or being institutionalized.

 

[Confederate Fag]

I only came here because I was told there was some funny power leveling happening and I wanted a laugh. But unfortunately, all I’ve seen is post after post over simplifying the issue, as usual. It’s never going to be as simple as “abortion is murder” or “my body, my choice”, but that’s always the extent of the arguments I see, with the exception of a couple posts. These phrases were made to make those arguments easy to understand for our retard world and therefore more palatable and ultimately convincing. That’s it. They are not debate points. Abortion, like everything else, cannot be addressed in black and white thinking, no matter how much you wish it all could be. Realistically, something this serious can only be best handled case by case and the easiest way to do that is by having abortion legal so that the option is there, and whether you or I like it or not, people will find ways to make it an option even when illegal, just like they have for centuries. You’re not solving anything by making shit illegal. The only time that slightly helps is if punishment is used as a deterrent, and I really hope I don’t need to explain why it would be extremely fucked up to apply that to something like abortion
I don’t understand why the same people that complain about people on welfare are the ones that want to abolish abortion. Most of the people on welfare were unwanted children that went on to have unwanted children and the cycle continues.
And if you’re arguing it’s against god or whatever, I still don’t get why you care. Let the evil abortionists fry in hell then? Isn’t that what really gets you people off? Lmao
Edit: I just wanted to add that I don’t understand this perception that women that have considered or had abortions do so without issue. Do you really think it’s as casual as some of you are trying to make it out to be, because I can assure it is not. The depth and stigma of that unfortunate decision more time than not causes lifelong trauma mentally and sometimes even physically. Retards using abortion as birth control is not the norm or majority and honestly if someone is that idiotic they probably shouldn’t be reproducing and raising anything anyway, so I’m glad they aren’t.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Do you really think it’s as casual as some of you are trying to make it out to be

I've seen multiple cases where it was. So yeah, it can be.

 

[Confederate Fag]

I've seen multiple cases where it was. So yeah, it can be.

Yes, I said it’s not the majority or the norm which implies it does happen, albeit less frequently.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Yes, I said it’s not the majority or the norm which implies it does happen, albeit less frequently.

No.

Unless you've made earlier posts, you didn't say anything about "majority". You said:

I just wanted to add that I don’t understand this perception that women that have considered or had abortions do so without issue. Do you really think it’s as casual as some of you are trying to make it out to be, because I can assure it is not.

I'm fine with moving on and assuming you just clarified what you meant, but don't pretend that that's exactly what you said.

---

Now on to the topic, you say it's not the case for the majority, now. How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[AnimeGirlConnoisseur]

because any point until around close to birth you can lose a pregnancy something can go wrong. point is a fetus can't survive outside the womb up to a certain point. Applying the same idea of personhood to something can literally fail if removed from the womb is asinine. if your body can push it out naturally and end it's existence naturally then where's the difference in doing is via doctor? if all abortion is murder then what does that make miscarriage then? by your logic murder because the body is technically aborting a messed up pregnancy.

It sounds like you're saying that the line between being a person and just being a thing is whether or not you can survive without the need of some external person or thing sustaining you. I don't see why this is reasonable standard. People with pacemakers are 'not viable' without them and newborn babies need a lot of care from other people in order to become 'viable'.
Also, I don't understand what you're getting at when you talk about how a woman's body end a fetus's existence naturally. There are probably a lot of really strong people out there that could kill with their bare hands if they wanted and most people would have been able to kill us when we were babies or fetus. Does that mean we are not people? If a woman intentionally kills a fetus with her own body then it really isn't any different than when an abortionist intentionally kills a fetus with tools or drugs. When a woman miscarriages it is (provided the fetus counts as a person) then it's not murder, it's just a death, because their is no intent to cause harm. I think that in these situations the woman should not be charged with anything (unless the woman is doing something really fucking stupid), because it's not something she intentionally caused and for all we know it could be something that was never in her power to cause or prevent.

 

[Eris!]

I'm pro-choice but I guess my cut off for abortion probably about 5 months in for a healthy fetus. After that I think it should only be legal if there is something seriously wrong with it.

If it's ever wrong why would it ever be not wrong? "I'm fine with it after X amount of arbitrary time" is the least coherent of all abortion positions.
Rationally it has to be either always or never. Anything else is incoherent.

Is it murder to them to have an abortion if there is no chance the baby will survive?

Yes, executing a dying person, especially against their will, is still murder. Duh.

I guess in these kinds of cases I don't really see why they would care.

Because it's murder.

I would have an abortion if the doctor told me that I would be giving birth to a permanent vegetable or a retard. I would never abort a healthy baby though.

So you'd murder your baby if its life was an inconvenience to you, but you wouldn't if it wasn't.
What a morally upstanding position.

Disability advocacy groups paint a really rosy picture of what it's like to have a severely disabled child. My life experience has allowed me to see what a lot of the propaganda about Down's and the like doesn't want the rest of us to think about. They use examples of high functioning individuals to make those afflictions seem like less of a burden.

This paragraph is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

And you can say that it's not your problem but eventually those people will be cared for by taxpayer dollars whether its through disability checks or being institutionalized.

And?

It’s never going to be as simple as “abortion is murder”

It literally is that simple. It is an extraordinarily simple issue. Anyone who pretends otherwise is being disingenuous, probably for motivated reasons.

Abortion, like everything else, cannot be addressed in black and white thinking,

Almost everything can and should be addressed in black and white thinking. If you ever see a grey area it means you do not properly understand things. Nuance always results from ignorance. If you properly understand something it is always clear.
Abortion is murder. It is simply evil. It is pure black.

and whether you or I like it or not, people will find ways to make it an option even when illegal, just like they have for centuries.

Yes, making murder illegal does not eliminate murder from the earth. Murder should still be illegal.

You’re not solving anything by making shit illegal.

The purpose of the law is not to 'solve' anything. The purpose of the law is punishing evildoers for doing evil.
They murdered children. They should be punished for that.

I don’t understand why the same people that complain about people on welfare are the ones that want to abolish abortion. Most of the people on welfare were unwanted children that went on to have unwanted children and the cycle continues.

If you read this thread you'd see that this point has been defeated a dozen times already.

Do you really think it’s as casual as some of you are trying to make it out to be,

Yes. We can see that with our own eyes.

because I can assure it is not

Then you're full of shit. We can see how casual women are about it. We can see them celebrating it. We can see their total lack of moral struggle with it.

that unfortunate decision

It's not an 'unfortunate' decision. It's an evil one.

more time than not causes lifelong trauma mentally and sometimes even physically.

Yes, murdering your child is extremely traumatic and leaves you with guilt for the rest of your life. Even if you ostensibly rationalize it as not murder, deep down you know the truth. Murdering your infant child is evil.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

nuking japan was correct, thus we should nuke beijing right the fuck now and also portland

now you might disagree with me, but I am right and you are wrong so checkmate atheists, you can't beat tautology

 

[Eris!]

now you might disagree with me, but I am right and you are wrong so checkmate atheists, you can't beat tautology

The secret to winning arguments is to always choose to argue for the side that is correct.

 

[Confederate Fag]

No.

Unless you've made earlier posts, you didn't say anything about "majority". You said:



I'm fine with moving on and assuming you just clarified what you meant, but don't pretend that that's exactly what you said.

---

Now on to the topic, you say it's not the case for the majority, now. How did you come to that conclusion?

Retards using abortion as birth control is not the norm or majority and honestly if someone is that idiotic they probably shouldn’t be reproducing and raising anything anyway, so I’m glad they aren’t.

Lmao so this thread is actually retarded. Thanks for the laughs everyone!

 

[Eris!]

Lmao so this thread is actually retarded. Thanks for the laughs everyone!

Another pro-choicer who responds to the shitposts but ignores any substance.
The consistency of this behavior is telling.

 

[Parallel Moon]

If it's ever wrong why would it ever be not wrong? "I'm fine with it after X amount of arbitrary time" is the least coherent of all abortion positions.
Rationally it has to be either always or never. Anything else is incoherent.

Yes, executing a dying person, especially against their will, is still murder. Duh.

Because it's murder.

So you'd murder your baby if its life was an inconvenience to you, but you wouldn't if it wasn't.
What a morally upstanding position.

I would love to have a baby but already have a contingency plan in place for abortion if the child is severely deformed or disabled. I feel absolutely zero guilt about this.

A life as a vegetable is no life at all. Also since no one is going to fork over the hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars to pay for round the clock specialized care for a kid like that, we couldn't afford it anyways. It's easy to sit there and whine about how its evil murder and worse than Hitler when you aren't facing those prospects.

No prolifers are going to ride in to rescue me. I am not naive. They'll say a few lines about how it's so "inspiring" that I took on the burden, then disappear to scold someone else.

So call me Hitler, I don't care.

It is mercy to end the life of a fetus who will do nothing but immediately suffer in excruciating pain and die. I fail to see how it is wrong to euthanize something that is going to die anyways. You cant live without lungs. So a baby born with that affliction would immediately suffer excruciating pain then die. Why not give that baby an easy way out?

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

The secret to winning arguments is to always choose to argue for the side that is correct.

the secret to not understanding what a tautology is is to fail to grasp what saying the same thing twice as a means of explaining its merits is

but it is hard to tell if you're a shrewd poe or not, though, so I'm not able to tell if you're either genuine or giggling for the laughos

 

[Eris!]

I feel absolutely zero guilt about this.

Evil people generally don't.

A life as a vegetable is no life at all.

You're just rationalizing murder. Trying to find some contrivance to make it justified.
It's transparent.

It's easy to sit there and whine about how its evil murder and worse than Hitler when you aren't facing those prospects.

Yes, it's very very easy. And very correct. It's weird that you think the point of view that is compromised by personal interest is the more correct one, not the less correct one. The person with a personal stake in evil doesn't see evil anymore. It's in his interest to be morally blind.

No prolifers are going to ride in to rescue me. I am not naive. They'll say a few lines about how it's so "inspiring" that I took on the burden, then disappear to scold someone else.

Yeah no one is going to applaud because you didn't commit murder. That's the baseline of expectation from you, not an achievement to be proud of.

So call me Hitler, I don't care.

"I don't care about morality," is not something you should admit to people. Uttering it essentially constitutes losing this argument. You are admitting that I am right.

It is mercy to end the life of a fetus who will do nothing but immediately suffer in excruciating pain and die. I fail to see how it is wrong to euthanize something that is going to die anyways. You cant live without lungs. So a baby born with that affliction would immediately suffer excruciating pain then die. Why not give that baby an easy way out?

Because the "easy way out" requires you to commit a morally impermissible action.

 

[Parallel Moon]

Evil people generally don't.

You're just rationalizing murder. Trying to find some contrivance to make it justified.
It's transparent.

Yes, it's very very easy. And very correct. It's weird that you think the point of view that is compromised by personal interest is the more correct one, not the less correct one. The person with a personal stake in evil doesn't see evil anymore. It's in his interest to be morally blind.

Yeah no one is going to applaud because you didn't commit murder. That's the baseline of expectation from you, not an achievement to be proud of.

"I don't care about morality," is not something you should admit to people. Uttering it essentially constitutes losing this argument. You are admitting that I
If I were a vegetable I would want to be killed.

Evil people generally don't.

You're just rationalizing murder. Trying to find some contrivance to make it justified.
It's transparent.

Yes, it's very very easy. And very correct. It's weird that you think the point of view that is compromised by personal interest is the more correct one, not the less correct one. The person with a personal stake in evil doesn't see evil anymore. It's in his interest to be morally blind.

Yeah no one is going to applaud because you didn't commit murder. That's the baseline of expectation from you, not an achievement to be proud of.

"I don't care about morality," is not something you should admit to people. Uttering it essentially constitutes losing this argument. You are admitting that I am right.

Because the "easy way out" requires you to commit a morally impermissible action.

For me it's immoral to let people be born vegetables and linger for fifty years in a bed in some understaffed, underfunded facility until they suffer from bedsores and die of MRSA. That is cruelty. If I were to become a vegetable tomorrow I would want to be killed. I guess you think I am a murderer of myself for wanting to die in that case? Are people being murderers when they take people off life support?

If I were dying I would want an enormous shot of morphine to go out in peace.

A lot of these severely disabled children would never live to adulthood without modern medicine. They require feeding tubes, open heart surgery, tons of medications, round the clock care and so on. In the 1930s or something they would never live to 50 or 60 as they are today. Their suffering is being artificially prolonged.

These babies might be cute and inspiring when they are 3 years old and you can put pretty bows in their hair, but it seems like all the pro birth types aren't anywhere to be seen when they are 40 and the size of an adult but still can't move on their own. You can't make a good photo op out of that, I guess.

Also the parents will eventually die or get too old to care for them so the taxpayer has to take over. So in the end the government is going to take your money to pay for them whether you like it or not.

If someone somehow held a gun to my head to make me give birth to some retard baby I would immediately give it up for adoption and try again for a normal child no matter how much people shamed me.

 

[Daughter of Cernunnos]

My sister's friends room mate's cat had a miscarriage today and even though me and my family aren't against abortion, except for my father, we were all very sad and disturbed to look at the dead kitties and my dad could not even look at the picture. Gaia seems like a cruel merciless bitch but she's just trying to looksmaxx and healthmaxx our sorry ape asses. Christians should kiss the ground and thank Her. But instead they thank their Judaic god even for babies born dead with anencephaly and hook them up to tubes to become zombies.