The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

[prollyanotherlurker]

How do you disable safe browsing entirely?

I just do it in the normal setting.

 

[volatile puar]

Probably the biggest problem would be if desktop environments and apps refuse to support it, Gnome would be actively hostile to X12 but KDE might be on the fence.

I think that the freedesktop people are the only app devs that really care about X11 vs Wayland beyond product functionality, and Xfce is the third biggest DE which would quickly adopt Xlibre if it becomes a clear upgrade, and most X11 app devs would be the same, the bigger problem would be popular apps that aren't being actively developed.

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

Red hat is deep in the X11 hating train and would likely be the last to support it, going kicking and screaming. Some BSD distros and such may be the first to support it, and if it's sufficiently stable then maybe more neutral distros (can't think of any off the top of my head). If it demonstrates itself as being superior then SteamOS may adopt it as they have full control of their hardware and experience, followed by Linux Mint as they are X11 by default and it would be trivial to ensure Cinnamon maintains support.

Probably the biggest problem would be if desktop environments and apps refuse to support it, Gnome would be actively hostile to X12 but KDE might be on the fence.

I'm perfectly fine with Wayland overall. But if x12 (or whatever they actually want to call it) becomes the next thing. I would be all for it.

For one reason alone. It would be the funniest outcome.

Seeing Wayland shills like Brodie Roberson have to backtrack. Would be great.

The one thing though, well there are a few. But one of the main things. Is really the communication between everything in the server thing. Really needs to able to be completely disabled by default. And some more limited way needs to be implemented. Because even if it's not the biggest deal in the world. It is absolutely more insecure than not having that. And you really don't need that for just a modern desktop. At least not completely wide open.

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

At this point in time, the burden of proof is entirely on you.

Arch users have proven to be the most insufferable, autistic of them all.

EDIT: And let's not forget, more often than not, all of the /r/unixporn posts are made by troons like that guy above.

DT is an arch user. Luke Smith was, an arch user. Not sure what he uses now.

 

[volatile puar]

It's worth mentioning that the big thing that impeded Wayland adoption is the fact that Wayland does not include a framework to ease app development (I don't remember the exact details) and the Wayland team feraljaks about how they omitted that intentionally because X11 was too hard to maintain. Xlibre will continue to have this framework so it will be easier to adopt for everyone, especially projects that don't have Gnome level funding.

 

[WhiteNight]

Luke Smith was, an arch user. Not sure what he uses now.

In 2023, he said he used Artix, which is a systemd-less spin of Arch:

 

[Betonhaus]

The one thing though, well there are a few. But one of the main things. Is really the communication between everything in the server thing. Really needs to able to be completely disabled by default. And some more limited way needs to be implemented. Because even if it's not the biggest deal in the world. It is absolutely more insecure than not having that. And you really don't need that for just a modern desktop. At least not completely wide open

Isn't that necessary for assistive systems like an on screen reader for the blind? Sure disabling it by default makes sense, but it does have a purpose.

And if I recall one of X11s biggest things was that the application and the de don't need to be on the same computer. So if you have a hide demand app like a 3d video renderer you could be running the app on a server but be using it on a weaker desktop

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

Isn't that necessary for assistive systems like an on screen reader for the blind? Sure disabling it by default makes sense, but it does have a purpose.

And if I recall one of X11s biggest things was that the application and the de don't need to be on the same computer. So if you have a hide demand app like a 3d video renderer you could be running the app on a server but be using it on a weaker desktop

The thing is. Most people. Just using an average desktop system. That aren't disabled. Won't need it. Which is my point. So having isolation by default. Really makes more sense. Then if lets say an accessibility suite needs it. It could easily adjust it in the xorg config. Or someone who is actually doing things with multiple machines, could enable it if needed.

Even 10 years ago, even well before that. For desktops average desktop users weren't using their system like that. Not saying no one was, just not for a person that wants a desktop machine.

Not having the display server built around everything seeing everything else. Is probably a good idea if some form of xorg is going to stick around. At least if normal people are going to run a desktop using it. And just to clarify. By normal people, and desktop users. I mean people that run Linux on their desktop, don't do work with servers, maybe they game, do some kind of average computing task. Running normal hardware, like a laptop, or some desktop machine. That is what I mean by average desktop user.

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

In 2023, he said he used Artix, which is a systemd-less spin of Arch:

Yeah. Idk if that's what he is still using. But it's basically just arch to me at the end of the day. And in general it's pretty safe to say he was/is an arch user.

 

[Black Willow Lurker]

the big thing that impeded Wayland adoption

is the fact that Wayland "developers" are colossal faggots. If these fucks wrote software instead of "designing a protocol", maybe Wayland wouldn't be such a steaming pile of shit after however many years it took them to (still not) make it usable. The lack of a high(er) level "standard library" is completely insane, and the fucking "extensions" bullshit alone deserves some kind of an award. It's like they looked at OpenGL/Vulkan and said "oh yeah, these are fantastic, I love writing thousands of LOC just to support some configuration that probably doesn't even exist, just because they couldn't agree on a stable feature level".

I wish the "X12" autist all the best, but probably the only way it can take off is if he somehow manages to basically refactor the whole thing, while maintaining compatibility, and/or someone like Valve tells trannies to fuck off and joins in, so future's not looking too bright

 

[Akerman]

I'm perfectly fine with Wayland overall. But if x12 (or whatever they actually want to call it) becomes the next thing. I would be all for it.

See, I agree, but I also don't think it's good enough that we are forced to just be "fine" with Wayland, because Wayland is not really a replacement for X11. It still cannot do many things X11 does, and it never will do many of those things because it's clearly a different project with its own philosophy. They make that clear constantly when they refuse to fix regressions from X11 that they do not see as regressions. For example, when they refused to fix the stuff that makes xscreensaver not work on Wayland. Jamie wants to port and maintain it; he has done so for decades now. It's a screensaver and clearly just a hobby project but he also puts a lot of love into it. But now he has to discard decades of work that he animated, wrote, and designed mostly on his own because, essentially: "You shouldn't want to have fun screen locks on your open-source operating system." - It's not the screensavers specifically that bothers me, it's their attitude while rejecting merge requests like we should be ashamed for even BRINGING it up to them. Who the fuck are you again? - Niggers want to be Apple so badly.

How much does it piss off some of them that Linux Mint is by far the most liked distro among newcomers to Linux and it's basically a X11 distro with only an experimental Wayland session? For all that talk about how unusable X11 is now, it seems like many newcomers try out Wayland distros due to FOMO and then hop right back to Mint after the problems start.

 

[jeff7989]

but KDE might be on the fence.

Yeah, about that. KDE will "support" X11 until Plasma 7, whenever that happens, it's already in maintenance mode and they don't implement new features.

 

[Crunkle]

In 2023, he said he used Artix, which is a systemd-less spin of Arch:

I've tried Artix, really good experience. The runit setup was fantastic, insanely quick and easy to manage. If I wanted a great distro that's quick and has Runit, I'd choose Void Linux. Fucking love that distro and need to change my main computer over.

Annoyingly, I use my laptop for work so constantly butting up against the popularity of systemd services was slowing me down. Artix is running on my main computer which I use for gaming (not using base Arch repos when Elden Ring came out saved my skin thanks to EasyAntiCheat changes that FromSoftware made to the game a week after it came out) and I've got EndeavourOS (with SystemD) on my main dev/programming machine.

NixOS is a fantastic idea but I did not enjoy working with it. It's the operating system equivalent of code unit tests, where you're future-proofing. But if I'm drunk and quickly want to install something, then I'd rather just run a quick terminal command rather than have to edit config files. Granted, last time I tried NixOS was probably 3/4 years ago. Almost everyone I see shouting its praises are usually trannies.

Also, tried GNOME again like I do every year or two. Not sure if it was the packages I installed but that shit barely worked. Hopped right back to KDE Plasma 6 (which is as buggy as can be expected from KDE but it runs so nicely and is comfort).

EDIT: It irritates me how Wayland is already better at gaming than X. I might actually have to start using it full-time and pozz my machine out.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

I just do it in the normal setting.

Did that too. So far no 20 MB writes. So far.

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

See, I agree, but I also don't think it's good enough that we are forced to just be "fine" with Wayland, because Wayland is not really a replacement for X11. It still cannot do many things X11 does, and it never will do many of those things because it's clearly a different project with its own philosophy. They make that clear constantly when they refuse to fix regressions from X11 that they do not see as regressions. For example, when they refused to fix the stuff that makes xscreensaver not work on Wayland. Jamie wants to port and maintain it; he has done so for decades now. It's a screensaver and clearly just a hobby project but he also puts a lot of love into it. But now he has to discard decades of work that he animated, wrote, and designed mostly on his own because, essentially: "You shouldn't want to have fun screen locks on your open-source operating system." - It's not the screensavers specifically that bothers me, it's their attitude while rejecting merge requests like we should be ashamed for even BRINGING it up to them. Who the fuck are you again? - Niggers want to be Apple so badly.

How much does it piss off some of them that Linux Mint is by far the most liked distro among newcomers to Linux and it's basically a X11 distro with only an experimental Wayland session? For all that talk about how unusable X11 is now, it seems like many newcomers try out Wayland distros due to FOMO and then hop right back to Mint after the problems start.

Look. I agree with some of what you are saying, but also disagree.

As a user at least. The worst thing about Wayland, for me. Is not having some of the tools like using on xorg. Most I use replacements. Though some I don't like as much as the x version.

Where I disagree. Is that a project, that is doing things a certain way, should have to add in support for an older project, that works on something that does things in a completely different way. And what that means.

Obviously screensaver won't work with Wayland. But a screensaver absolutely could work. Someone would just have to make it. And if no one that codes, believes it's worth their effort to make. The we won't ever get that for Wayland. Though I do have a feeling with how things tend to work with Linux. Stuff, eventually someone will want it and decide to do it. Like people have done for compositors, dmenu replacements, versions of xdotool (though that is something that's definitely not all the way there on Wayland), etc.

Idk. I'm not saying you're completely wrong, or anything. But I definitely look at that specific situation differently. And I don't hold that against them. There are some choices they've made, that I don't like, and some things I do find annoying about Wayland for sure though.

On pissing people off that mint is using x11 as the default. Idk. I've never seen people really complain much about that. At least not really upset about it. I'm not saying people aren't. I just have never seen it.

 

[Susanna]

NixOS is a fantastic idea but I did not enjoy working with it. It's the operating system equivalent of code unit tests, where you're future-proofing. But if I'm drunk and quickly want to install something, then I'd rather just run a quick terminal command rather than have to edit config files. Granted, last time I tried NixOS was probably 3/4 years ago. Almost everyone I see shouting its praises are usually trannies.

NixOS can be really tedious, but I do enjoy just being able to put all my desired configs in a folder, linking them together in a file for each computer, and then installing a full system by just mounting the partitions on the live image and running the install script.
Plus if an update breaks something I can easily boot the previous configuration instead.

 

[GrimPortents]

It irritates me how Wayland is already better at gaming than X

Speak for yourself: Dota 2 eats shit the moment I try to type in chat. Granted it's a few seconds, but when I'm trying to herd cats, it's gotten me killed a few times. No such issues in X11. And this is on an AMD GPU.

 

[Crunkle]

NixOS can be really tedious, but I do enjoy just being able to put all my desired configs in a folder, linking them together in a file for each computer, and then installing a full system by just mounting the partitions on the live image and running the install script.
Plus if an update breaks something I can easily boot the previous configuration instead.

Yeah, that's pretty fantastic and useful if you need to get up and running again. Heavy setup burden, though and as you said, a bit tedious. Even if you only do it once, theroetically. How does it work if you tried to apply the same setup to a different computer with a different GPU? Do the configs needs to be separated or can you split them up and merge them together?

I might give it another go at some point and see if I can get into it this time around.

Speak for yourself: Dota 2 eats shit the moment I try to type in chat. Granted it's a few seconds, but when I'm trying to herd cats, it's gotten me killed a few times. No such issues in X11. And this is on an AMD GPU.

Use case for Dota 2? Haven't ever tried that, not my kind of game. Valve games are usually perfect on Linux. My main gripe at the moment is how some Unity games will freeze and become unresponsive in KDE+Wayland if I tab out but works fine with X11.

The main point I realised I was usually getting a better experience with KDE+Wayland was No Man's Sky. With X11, I got maybe 45 frames when playing a video on my second monitor (the game's a bit tedious so I was watching shit at the same time). With Wayland, I got nearer to 120. Not sure if this was some newer Proton bullshit but that was a good trade-off for me. My laptop has integrated graphics so it works buttery smooth with Wayland.

I just had to then deal with the shitty "X11 running in Wayland" application experience. That and I can smell the HIV and progesterone on every single window.

 

[Susanna]

Yeah, that's pretty fantastic and useful if you need to get up and running again. Heavy setup burden, though and as you said, a bit tedious. Even if you only do it once, theroetically. How does it work if you tried to apply the same setup to a different computer with a different GPU? Do the configs needs to be separated or can you split them up and merge them together?

I might give it another go at some point and see if I can get into it this time around.

I've got computers with AMD internal graphics and Nvidia dedicated, just AMD internal, and just Intel internal, and use the same graphics setup for all of them. Intel and AMD graphics just work by default, so I just have an nvidia.nix file I import if a computer has an Nvidia GPU. Works really well. If I were to set up a new computer with an Nvidia GPU and forget to add the import nvidia line, that computer will still boot and everything, just it'll use nouveau instead.

The setup burden is definitely a bit heavier, especially learning the special syntax, but as a positive I only need to define things once. I can copy my existing specific computer file for a new machine, change things like the hostname, disk UUIDs, and Wireguard key, and it'll just import all my accounts, my installed software, my backup scripts, custom systemd services, etc. I like to play around with computers in homelab and set up new ones fairly often, so NixOS actually saves me a lot of time.

 

[Crunkle]

I've got computers with AMD internal graphics and Nvidia dedicated, just AMD internal, and just Intel internal, and use the same graphics setup for all of them. Intel and AMD graphics just work by default, so I just have an nvidia.nix file I import if a computer has an Nvidia GPU. Works really well. If I were to set up a new computer with an Nvidia GPU and forget to add the import nvidia line, that computer will still boot and everything, just it'll use nouveau instead.

Yeah, that's pretty incredible. I've been lucky enough not to have to touch an Nvidia GPU on Linux for over five years now but that sounds like it's easy to split out.

especially learning the special syntax,

Looks like a weird mix of JSON and YAML. Doesn't look too bad, actually. Reminds me a lot of the Docker Compose syntax.

Wireguard key,

Have you tried AmneziaWG? It's a fork of Wireguard but way more secure, works with Wireguard config files. It's way more secure and obfuscates the size and headers of the proxied packets so they can't be determined as tunnelled traffic. Fantastic if your ISP or country like to block VPN traffic. Also means that public WiFi (where you need a VPN) can't block your VPN traffic as they don't know it's a VPN packet.

Only really useful if your VPN provider supports it, or if you've got your own VPN VPS running.

I like to play around with computers in homelab and set up new ones fairly often, so NixOS actually saves me a lot of time.

I get quite a few requests from neighbours and friends to improve their shitty old laptops. Mostly Windows 10 and very slow Windows 11 notebooks, taking five - ten minutes to even get to the login page. They're usually just there for photo uploads and as a Facebook machine, so I just pop Linux on there and they love the speed and just overall simplicity. This could really save some time. I will take a look and see how it goes.