The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

[Akerman]

I'm perfectly fine with Wayland overall. But if x12 (or whatever they actually want to call it) becomes the next thing. I would be all for it.

See, I agree, but I also don't think it's good enough that we are forced to just be "fine" with Wayland, because Wayland is not really a replacement for X11. It still cannot do many things X11 does, and it never will do many of those things because it's clearly a different project with its own philosophy. They make that clear constantly when they refuse to fix regressions from X11 that they do not see as regressions. For example, when they refused to fix the stuff that makes xscreensaver not work on Wayland. Jamie wants to port and maintain it; he has done so for decades now. It's a screensaver and clearly just a hobby project but he also puts a lot of love into it. But now he has to discard decades of work that he animated, wrote, and designed mostly on his own because, essentially: "You shouldn't want to have fun screen locks on your open-source operating system." - It's not the screensavers specifically that bothers me, it's their attitude while rejecting merge requests like we should be ashamed for even BRINGING it up to them. Who the fuck are you again? - Niggers want to be Apple so badly.

How much does it piss off some of them that Linux Mint is by far the most liked distro among newcomers to Linux and it's basically a X11 distro with only an experimental Wayland session? For all that talk about how unusable X11 is now, it seems like many newcomers try out Wayland distros due to FOMO and then hop right back to Mint after the problems start.

 

[jeff7989]

but KDE might be on the fence.

Yeah, about that. KDE will "support" X11 until Plasma 7, whenever that happens, it's already in maintenance mode and they don't implement new features.

 

[Crunkle]

In 2023, he said he used Artix, which is a systemd-less spin of Arch:

I've tried Artix, really good experience. The runit setup was fantastic, insanely quick and easy to manage. If I wanted a great distro that's quick and has Runit, I'd choose Void Linux. Fucking love that distro and need to change my main computer over.

Annoyingly, I use my laptop for work so constantly butting up against the popularity of systemd services was slowing me down. Artix is running on my main computer which I use for gaming (not using base Arch repos when Elden Ring came out saved my skin thanks to EasyAntiCheat changes that FromSoftware made to the game a week after it came out) and I've got EndeavourOS (with SystemD) on my main dev/programming machine.

NixOS is a fantastic idea but I did not enjoy working with it. It's the operating system equivalent of code unit tests, where you're future-proofing. But if I'm drunk and quickly want to install something, then I'd rather just run a quick terminal command rather than have to edit config files. Granted, last time I tried NixOS was probably 3/4 years ago. Almost everyone I see shouting its praises are usually trannies.

Also, tried GNOME again like I do every year or two. Not sure if it was the packages I installed but that shit barely worked. Hopped right back to KDE Plasma 6 (which is as buggy as can be expected from KDE but it runs so nicely and is comfort).

EDIT: It irritates me how Wayland is already better at gaming than X. I might actually have to start using it full-time and pozz my machine out.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

I just do it in the normal setting.

Did that too. So far no 20 MB writes. So far.

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

See, I agree, but I also don't think it's good enough that we are forced to just be "fine" with Wayland, because Wayland is not really a replacement for X11. It still cannot do many things X11 does, and it never will do many of those things because it's clearly a different project with its own philosophy. They make that clear constantly when they refuse to fix regressions from X11 that they do not see as regressions. For example, when they refused to fix the stuff that makes xscreensaver not work on Wayland. Jamie wants to port and maintain it; he has done so for decades now. It's a screensaver and clearly just a hobby project but he also puts a lot of love into it. But now he has to discard decades of work that he animated, wrote, and designed mostly on his own because, essentially: "You shouldn't want to have fun screen locks on your open-source operating system." - It's not the screensavers specifically that bothers me, it's their attitude while rejecting merge requests like we should be ashamed for even BRINGING it up to them. Who the fuck are you again? - Niggers want to be Apple so badly.

How much does it piss off some of them that Linux Mint is by far the most liked distro among newcomers to Linux and it's basically a X11 distro with only an experimental Wayland session? For all that talk about how unusable X11 is now, it seems like many newcomers try out Wayland distros due to FOMO and then hop right back to Mint after the problems start.

Look. I agree with some of what you are saying, but also disagree.

As a user at least. The worst thing about Wayland, for me. Is not having some of the tools like using on xorg. Most I use replacements. Though some I don't like as much as the x version.

Where I disagree. Is that a project, that is doing things a certain way, should have to add in support for an older project, that works on something that does things in a completely different way. And what that means.

Obviously screensaver won't work with Wayland. But a screensaver absolutely could work. Someone would just have to make it. And if no one that codes, believes it's worth their effort to make. The we won't ever get that for Wayland. Though I do have a feeling with how things tend to work with Linux. Stuff, eventually someone will want it and decide to do it. Like people have done for compositors, dmenu replacements, versions of xdotool (though that is something that's definitely not all the way there on Wayland), etc.

Idk. I'm not saying you're completely wrong, or anything. But I definitely look at that specific situation differently. And I don't hold that against them. There are some choices they've made, that I don't like, and some things I do find annoying about Wayland for sure though.

On pissing people off that mint is using x11 as the default. Idk. I've never seen people really complain much about that. At least not really upset about it. I'm not saying people aren't. I just have never seen it.

 

[Susanna]

NixOS is a fantastic idea but I did not enjoy working with it. It's the operating system equivalent of code unit tests, where you're future-proofing. But if I'm drunk and quickly want to install something, then I'd rather just run a quick terminal command rather than have to edit config files. Granted, last time I tried NixOS was probably 3/4 years ago. Almost everyone I see shouting its praises are usually trannies.

NixOS can be really tedious, but I do enjoy just being able to put all my desired configs in a folder, linking them together in a file for each computer, and then installing a full system by just mounting the partitions on the live image and running the install script.
Plus if an update breaks something I can easily boot the previous configuration instead.

 

[GrimPortents]

It irritates me how Wayland is already better at gaming than X

Speak for yourself: Dota 2 eats shit the moment I try to type in chat. Granted it's a few seconds, but when I'm trying to herd cats, it's gotten me killed a few times. No such issues in X11. And this is on an AMD GPU.

 

[Crunkle]

NixOS can be really tedious, but I do enjoy just being able to put all my desired configs in a folder, linking them together in a file for each computer, and then installing a full system by just mounting the partitions on the live image and running the install script.
Plus if an update breaks something I can easily boot the previous configuration instead.

Yeah, that's pretty fantastic and useful if you need to get up and running again. Heavy setup burden, though and as you said, a bit tedious. Even if you only do it once, theroetically. How does it work if you tried to apply the same setup to a different computer with a different GPU? Do the configs needs to be separated or can you split them up and merge them together?

I might give it another go at some point and see if I can get into it this time around.

Speak for yourself: Dota 2 eats shit the moment I try to type in chat. Granted it's a few seconds, but when I'm trying to herd cats, it's gotten me killed a few times. No such issues in X11. And this is on an AMD GPU.

Use case for Dota 2? Haven't ever tried that, not my kind of game. Valve games are usually perfect on Linux. My main gripe at the moment is how some Unity games will freeze and become unresponsive in KDE+Wayland if I tab out but works fine with X11.

The main point I realised I was usually getting a better experience with KDE+Wayland was No Man's Sky. With X11, I got maybe 45 frames when playing a video on my second monitor (the game's a bit tedious so I was watching shit at the same time). With Wayland, I got nearer to 120. Not sure if this was some newer Proton bullshit but that was a good trade-off for me. My laptop has integrated graphics so it works buttery smooth with Wayland.

I just had to then deal with the shitty "X11 running in Wayland" application experience. That and I can smell the HIV and progesterone on every single window.

 

[Susanna]

Yeah, that's pretty fantastic and useful if you need to get up and running again. Heavy setup burden, though and as you said, a bit tedious. Even if you only do it once, theroetically. How does it work if you tried to apply the same setup to a different computer with a different GPU? Do the configs needs to be separated or can you split them up and merge them together?

I might give it another go at some point and see if I can get into it this time around.

I've got computers with AMD internal graphics and Nvidia dedicated, just AMD internal, and just Intel internal, and use the same graphics setup for all of them. Intel and AMD graphics just work by default, so I just have an nvidia.nix file I import if a computer has an Nvidia GPU. Works really well. If I were to set up a new computer with an Nvidia GPU and forget to add the import nvidia line, that computer will still boot and everything, just it'll use nouveau instead.

The setup burden is definitely a bit heavier, especially learning the special syntax, but as a positive I only need to define things once. I can copy my existing specific computer file for a new machine, change things like the hostname, disk UUIDs, and Wireguard key, and it'll just import all my accounts, my installed software, my backup scripts, custom systemd services, etc. I like to play around with computers in homelab and set up new ones fairly often, so NixOS actually saves me a lot of time.

 

[Crunkle]

I've got computers with AMD internal graphics and Nvidia dedicated, just AMD internal, and just Intel internal, and use the same graphics setup for all of them. Intel and AMD graphics just work by default, so I just have an nvidia.nix file I import if a computer has an Nvidia GPU. Works really well. If I were to set up a new computer with an Nvidia GPU and forget to add the import nvidia line, that computer will still boot and everything, just it'll use nouveau instead.

Yeah, that's pretty incredible. I've been lucky enough not to have to touch an Nvidia GPU on Linux for over five years now but that sounds like it's easy to split out.

especially learning the special syntax,

Looks like a weird mix of JSON and YAML. Doesn't look too bad, actually. Reminds me a lot of the Docker Compose syntax.

Wireguard key,

Have you tried AmneziaWG? It's a fork of Wireguard but way more secure, works with Wireguard config files. It's way more secure and obfuscates the size and headers of the proxied packets so they can't be determined as tunnelled traffic. Fantastic if your ISP or country like to block VPN traffic. Also means that public WiFi (where you need a VPN) can't block your VPN traffic as they don't know it's a VPN packet.

Only really useful if your VPN provider supports it, or if you've got your own VPN VPS running.

I like to play around with computers in homelab and set up new ones fairly often, so NixOS actually saves me a lot of time.

I get quite a few requests from neighbours and friends to improve their shitty old laptops. Mostly Windows 10 and very slow Windows 11 notebooks, taking five - ten minutes to even get to the login page. They're usually just there for photo uploads and as a Facebook machine, so I just pop Linux on there and they love the speed and just overall simplicity. This could really save some time. I will take a look and see how it goes.

 

[GrimPortents]

Oh, well, forget my previous post; running Dota 2 in Proton (GE) got rid of the issue. Seems their native support outside of X11 isn't exactly up to snuff.

 

[Crunkle]

Oh, well, forget my previous post; running Dota 2 in Proton (GE) got rid of the issue. Seems their native support outside of X11 isn't exactly up to snuff.

Yeah, it's mad how that works. I've had a few native Linux games which just work so much better under Proton.

The last one was System Shock 2 which had a native Linux port but the game itself is a bit crusty now so it just works way better under Proton.

 

[Rust Troony]

Oh, well, forget my previous post; running Dota 2 in Proton (GE) got rid of the issue. Seems their native support outside of X11 isn't exactly up to snuff.

Doesnt that kill off VAC supported servers?

Anyways, no Valve game has official wayland support. Every single one plays through xwayland unless you fuck around with shit (forcing it to use native SDL2 that has wayland support). Its a mixed bag whether Valve games works or not it seems. TF2 didn't even get pass the intro 90% of the time when i used Linux Mint, works just fine on kde/wayland.

Yeah, it's mad how that works. I've had a few native Linux games which just work so much better under Proton.

The last one was System Shock 2 which had a native Linux port but the game itself is a bit crusty now so it just works way better under Proton.

Linux native games usually get left to rot. I remember Borderlands 2 had a native linux port that was years out of date to the point you couldn't even play multiplayer with windows players, but using proton fixed it. It sucks especially since Linux is more tedious to work on since its a lot more moving parts that like to break things. Steam Runtime is supposed to fix that though.

 

[Betonhaus]

At what point does Stem go "fuck it" and design a containerized game platform that runs on Windows, Linux, and maybe even macOS?

 

[Crunkle]

Doesnt that kill off VAC supported servers?

Honestly not sure, not played Dota 2 in over a decade. I did play on some Left 4 Dead 2 servers before and I think those were official. Could've just been really good community ones, but they ran excellently.

Hosting a game server via SteamCMD/Linux is a fucking nightmare. SteamCMD in general was always a nightmare. Factorio's dedicated server software is what these devs should aspire to create, that is so good.

Linux native games usually get left to rot.

I think that's more of a symptom of a wider issue in gaming/re-releases, but you do see Linux ports not working well even a few years after release. Not to mention the rate at which dev studios go under in gaming. https://www.myabandonware.com/ is a great place to see all of this. The 2014 - 2023 of Linux gaming was essentially seeing that Feral Interactive cat logo and knowing that you'd actually be able to play the game natively without many issues.

First case of this I was hit by was when they released Oddworld: Munch's Odyssey on Steam in like 2013 and it was fucked. No updates, no patches, way before the Steam 2 hour refund policy. I got punished for not buying from GOG, but learned a valuable lesson to research before buying.

I read a very interesting article that said that Linux gamers are way more niche than Windows gamers, but will typically pay more for quality ports of games. Me personally? If it's not a AAA release and looks like an interesting indie game, I'll go and torrent it, see how it runs and then if I like it I'll buy it. Steam has that two hour refund policy nowadays but most games these days have a cinematic intro that's three hours long.

At what point does Stem go "fuck it" and design a containerized game platform that runs on Windows, Linux, and maybe even macOS?

That's what Vulkan was supposed to mainly do. The main object preventing truly cross-platform gaming is DirectX. Vulkan is fantastic these days and has really improved that aspect of things, for sure.

 

[Slav Power]

It's way more secure and obfuscates the size and headers of the proxied packets so they can't be determined as tunnelled traffic.

That's not a matter of security, it's going to be as secure as regular WireGuard, but the thing it does differently is that it's fighting against deep packet inspection, which mind you, can't determine what's in the tunneled traffic as it's encrypted, but it can determine that it is tunneled traffic due to WireGuard's unique package structure. There have been a couple WG forks from Russians to circumvent their local censorship already.

 

[The Count of Monte Cristo]

System Shock 2 which had a native Linux port

I could be wrong but wasn't that just a repackaged version of the windows release using an old ass version of wine?

 

[Betonhaus]

That's what Vulkan was supposed to mainly do. The main object preventing truly cross-platform gaming is DirectX. Vulkan is fantastic these days and has really improved that aspect of things, for sure.

Vulcan is still pretty low level and the rest of the game is still written for Windows unless there's a port.

What I'm saying is a 100% universal binary that runs in a Steam container like Docker or Podman does so it can run in any system no matter the OS, as long as it's x86. In theory consoles could run the container too, but Sony and Nintendo would drag their heels. If done right then there would be no such thing as an obsolete game, as a system from 20 or 40 years from now would have a compatibility layer for containers from this era.

 

[Akerman]

The setup burden is definitely a bit heavier, especially learning the special syntax, but as a positive I only need to define things once. I can copy my existing specific computer file for a new machine, change things like the hostname, disk UUIDs, and Wireguard key, and it'll just import all my accounts, my installed software, my backup scripts, custom systemd services, etc. I like to play around with computers in homelab and set up new ones fairly often, so NixOS actually saves me a lot of time.

Last time I used NixOS I went through all the trouble to set up all my stuff and learn the language, I had a git and everything. Nix was the only distro I hopped to that wasn't objectively worse than what I already used, and now that I know more, I think it could be better. Problem is I have my setup scripts already written for Arch, and if I needed to, I could very easily replicate a system too. I never really need to do that though; I prefer to have each computer be totally different. It just felt tedious having to rewrite it all for Nix and I ended up ditching before I finished it. Changing your flow is really annoying, and I suspect that is the reason many Linux nerds don't bother with NixOS. It's just too different. Kind of a shame tbh.


EDIT: I decided to finally try daily driving it again due to your post and I was met with this bullshit on the front page:

And the favicon too... It's all so tiresome. At least they didn't use the tranny / brown colors & the autism awareness colors do fit the distro.

 

[Crunkle]

That's not a matter of security, it's going to be as secure as regular WireGuard, but the thing it does differently is that it's fighting against deep packet inspection, which mind you, can't determine what's in the tunneled traffic as it's encrypted, but it can determine that it is tunneled traffic due to WireGuard's unique package structure. There have been a couple WG forks from Russians to circumvent their local censorship already.

Great bit of extra info, thanks. Amnezia only adds to the security in that nobody sniffing the packets could determine it was a WG connection. Getting AmneziaWG set up on Arch sucked a little bit, too. Wireguard was flawless.

I could be wrong but wasn't that just a repackaged version of the windows release using an old ass version of wine?

Yeah, it was an ancient Wine version. Just using Proton and that Glorious Eggroll Proton meant I had a way better version and mod support so I could add a few community patches. You see that a lot with some older games where they come with a pre-packaged DOSBox instance. Think that's what happens on the OG Tomb Raider games, just launches DOSBox. Kind of a slap in the face because you know at that moment you could've set it up yourself.

Vulcan is still pretty low level and the rest of the game is still written for Windows unless there's a port.

The key thing was that almost all game engines support Vulkan nowadays and most console games (PS5, Nintendo) are using Vulkan. Offers a great API for porting to mobile for the smaller games, especially.

DRM is quickly becoming way worse of an issue than graphics APIs, though. Not just for Lincucks but for all PC gaming.

as a system from 20 or 40 years from now would have a compatibility layer for containers from this era.

Ah, I see what you mean, fantastic idea. I imagine a lot of game studios have tasted power and user retardation because most people are unaware that these companies have root-level access to your computer. Putting it in a sandboxed container would probably make them scream and shit as it meant they wouldn't have limitless access to a consumer's computer.