The Shin Megami Tensei/Persona Thread

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I was told that Nocturne was the hardest thing to ever exist in the series, to the point it was bullshit. I want that experience, because if I can handle this meme-tier bullshit I can handle the rest of the series. Of course I'm playing on hard.

To the Dark Souls™ comparison, Dark Souls is so much simpler than this game in my autistic mind, because you can build reflexes to any boss that fucks you enough, but this game is all about knowing exactly what to expect at any time at all and managing resources near exactly.

tl;dr it's what I want in a Jap RPG and I love the setting, and if I master it I'll play the other games when I get the time.

Remember to fuse Ame no Uzume. Trafuri is your best friend to escape the typically inescapable encounters that you don't want to grind out, and it just so happens that Ame no Uzume is a sort of "jack of all trades," so to speak in that she's a healer, buffer, debuffer, and escape artist all in one demon.

As far as the whole subject of difficulty is concerned, I'll spoiler-tag my thoughts on it.

"Hardest" is subjective. In many respects, Nocturne's hard mode is significantly more punishing than SMT4's Master mode or SMT4A's Apocalypse mode. However, the "difficulty" from Nocturne's hard mode just comes from two things alone: inescapable encounters and triple shop prices. Nocturne Hard mode is fucking cock and ball torture amped up to the logical extreme, don't get me wrong. However, there genuinely are objectively harder games in the franchise.

Perhaps it's the autism kicking in from my attempts at SMT1+2, but those games are the real fucking insane, balls-to-the-wall challenge in terms of overall difficulty. You ever tried managing Magnetite before? You Nocturne and SMT4 whippersnappers don't understand the fucking pain that Magnetite as a system caused to literally everyone who ever played Megami Tensei 1+2 or SMT 1+2.

In the lore of the MegaTen franchise, demons are typically incorporeal and only take form when there's an abundance of a substance called Magnetite, from which they can manifest a physical body. Basically, you need Magnetite to keep your demons summoned with you as you traverse the world. You read that right: you need a diminishing resource to actually move around the game with your demons summoned.

To be absolutely fair here, some of the Famicom/SFC MegaTen games do take into consideration the Magnetite burden, so you don't lose Magnetite whenever you're on the overworld (at least as far as Megami Tensei II and SMT2 are concerned, if I'm not mistaken). However, that still doesn't change the fact that every step you take in a dungeon will actively haemorrhage Magnetite to keep your demons summoned. To make matters worse, the FC/SFC MegaTen games have infuriatingly high encounter rates with overwhelmingly samey maps that you can only look at from a first-person perspective.

Speaking of first-person, it must be said just how much of a paradigm shift that is compared to the typical third-person dungeon crawling used in most MegaTen games from Nocturne-onward. If you were able to look at the maps of SMT1+2 from a third person perspective, they'd actually be incredibly simple and fairly easy to navigate despite the samey tilesets. With a first-person perspective, navigation in a dungeon becomes that much more tricky because you now you have more than just the D-Pad or analogue stick to orient your character around the world with. I can't tell you how many trap tiles in Strange Journey I inadvertently triggered because I forgot the shoulder buttons make you strafe left and right as opposed to orienting the camera.

If after Nocturne, you find yourself unfulfilled due to the challenge that I told you about that you haven't yet experienced, fire up MelonDS and play the NDS version of Strange Journey. The moment you're without your precious press turns, you'll be crying for mercy.
 
Remember to fuse Ame no Uzume. Trafuri is your best friend to escape the typically inescapable encounters that you don't want to grind out, and it just so happens that Ame no Uzume is a sort of "jack of all trades," so to speak in that she's a healer, buffer, debuffer, and escape artist all in one demon.

As far as the whole subject of difficulty is concerned, I'll spoiler-tag my thoughts on it.

"Hardest" is subjective. In many respects, Nocturne's hard mode is significantly more punishing than SMT4's Master mode or SMT4A's Apocalypse mode. However, the "difficulty" from Nocturne's hard mode just comes from two things alone: inescapable encounters and triple shop prices. Nocturne Hard mode is fucking cock and ball torture amped up to the logical extreme, don't get me wrong. However, there genuinely are objectively harder games in the franchise.

Perhaps it's the autism kicking in from my attempts at SMT1+2, but those games are the real fucking insane, balls-to-the-wall challenge in terms of overall difficulty. You ever tried managing Magnetite before? You Nocturne and SMT4 whippersnappers don't understand the fucking pain that Magnetite as a system caused to literally everyone who ever played Megami Tensei 1+2 or SMT 1+2.

In the lore of the MegaTen franchise, demons are typically incorporeal and only take form when there's an abundance of a substance called Magnetite, from which they can manifest a physical body. Basically, you need Magnetite to keep your demons summoned with you as you traverse the world. You read that right: you need a diminishing resource to actually move around the game with your demons summoned.

To be absolutely fair here, some of the Famicom/SFC MegaTen games do take into consideration the Magnetite burden, so you don't lose Magnetite whenever you're on the overworld (at least as far as Megami Tensei II and SMT2 are concerned, if I'm not mistaken). However, that still doesn't change the fact that every step you take in a dungeon will actively haemorrhage Magnetite to keep your demons summoned. To make matters worse, the FC/SFC MegaTen games have infuriatingly high encounter rates with overwhelmingly samey maps that you can only look at from a first-person perspective.

Speaking of first-person, it must be said just how much of a paradigm shift that is compared to the typical third-person dungeon crawling used in most MegaTen games from Nocturne-onward. If you were able to look at the maps of SMT1+2 from a third person perspective, they'd actually be incredibly simple and fairly easy to navigate despite the samey tilesets. With a first-person perspective, navigation in a dungeon becomes that much more tricky because you now you have more than just the D-Pad or analogue stick to orient your character around the world with. I can't tell you how many trap tiles in Strange Journey I inadvertently triggered because I forgot the shoulder buttons make you strafe left and right as opposed to orienting the camera.

If after Nocturne, you find yourself unfulfilled due to the challenge that I told you about that you haven't yet experienced, fire up MelonDS and play the NDS version of Strange Journey. The moment you're without your precious press turns, you'll be crying for mercy.

The real time combat they had planned for persona 3, which was also in production during Nocturne's development, would have been an interesting experiment.

There's a short clip out there showing a few persona 1 characters in a hallway attacking shadows and moving on seamlessly in the same engine without the extremely tedious amount of intro and end battle screens seen in the final game.

It seems like they were inspired by kamen rider with a mix of persona 5's outfit design for the SMT V protagonist.
 
So, Nocturne is a spinoff, not a remake of SMT3? I'm not really up to speed on the franchise as a whole and have only played Persona 4 and 5, none of the SMT games. Do I need to know SMT3 going in?
 
So, Nocturne is a spinoff, not a remake of SMT3? I'm not really up to speed on the franchise as a whole and have only played Persona 4 and 5, none of the SMT games. Do I need to know SMT3 going in?

The full name of SMT3 is "Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne" in Japan. Alternate names for SMT3 in other regions
- Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne (USA)
- Shin Megami Tensei: Lucifer's Call (PAL)

The mainline SMT games (with the exception of SMT1+2) are all distinct entities with their own timelines and are in no way connected to one another outside of questionable DLCs in SMT4 Apocalypse. You can theoretically pick up any SMT game, complete it, and move onto the next one without issue.

If you're a total noob to mainline SMT, I'd strongly recommend either waiting for SMT5 to come out on the Switch if you have one or just torrent vanilla SMT4 if you own a modded 3DS. Nocturne HD on the Switch (or PC/PS4) is also acceptable, but mind you: it's a port of an 18-year-old game. QOL fixes and updated textures can only do so much.
 
I was looking at some of the concept art for Persona 5 and the image of Joker and Ann driving got me thinking about P6. What do you guys think about reducing the main cast to just two people?
 
I was looking at some of the concept art for Persona 5 and the image of Joker and Ann driving got me thinking about P6. What do you guys think about reducing the main cast to just two people?
Persona in of itself since 3 has heavily invested itself in lots of characters having story arcs so i couldnt see the full cast being reduced in any away. I'd reduce the main party by maybe 2 so we can avoid Haru situations in the future. The full party at the end of Royal was a bit ridiculous.
 
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Nocturne is only hard if you go in expecting something like Persona or even Pokemon. If you treat it as its own JRPG and follow basics like buffing, debuffing, and overall just trying to get on a higher ground than the enemy you will be fine. If you do all that you will probably die a total of 20 times in the game max and that's if your playing the maniax pack
 
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I was looking at some of the concept art for Persona 5 and the image of Joker and Ann driving got me thinking about P6. What do you guys think about reducing the main cast to just two people?
I could see cutting the Party Roster slightly - I like P5R but fuck me if half the party never saw use - but 2 would likely be too far. Maybe 5 with 3 Active slots (would give space for the classic Damage Dealer, Buffer, Debuffer, and Healer, with the protaganist/self insert acting as the Jack of All Trades)?
Persona in of itself since 3 has heavily invested itself in lots of characters having story arcs so i couldnt see the full cast being reduced in any away. I'd reduce the main party by maybe 2 so we can avoid Haru situations in the future. The full party at the end of Royal was a bit ridiculous.
The sad thing is, Royal actually gave Haru slightly more screen time earlier in the game (bringing her from 5 minutes of relevance to 10, tops), but still did her dirty by making the fucking cat the focal point of that arc. I feel like if they made her a side character Haru wouldn't be as much of a dissapointment... that and I hope P6 that they pull a P3, and have the obligatory Animal Party member just be a random dog with a knife...
 
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I was looking at some of the concept art for Persona 5 and the image of Joker and Ann driving got me thinking about P6. What do you guys think about reducing the main cast to just two people?

I doubt Persona will ever cut down on its party size. The series' main appeal has shifted to best friends simulator and a highschool jrpg needs a cult of personality built around the mc.

I think a smaller party size is the right choice though. 4 and 5 reduced 1/2 the cast to soundbites. It's why I think Innocent Sin's party is the best (haven't played eternal punishment yet though).
 
I could see cutting the Party Roster slightly - I like P5R but fuck me if half the party never saw use - but 2 would likely be too far. Maybe 5 with 3 Active slots (would give space for the classic Damage Dealer, Buffer, Debuffer, and Healer, with the protaganist/self insert acting as the Jack of All Trades)?

The sad thing is, Royal actually gave Haru slightly more screen time earlier in the game (bringing her from 5 minutes of relevance to 10, tops), but still did her dirty by making the fucking cat the focal point of that arc. I feel like if they made her a side character Haru wouldn't be as much of a dissapointment... that and I hope P6 that they pull a P3, and have the obligatory Animal Party member just be a random dog with a knife...
Party size is due to characters needing to specialize in one element. If we're going back to the Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest character archetypes, black and red mages would be the most used characters due to the importance of elemental damage in normal encounters, which obscures the value of buff/debuff and physical characters.
 
Personally, I wish that the Hashino Persona games would take a cue out of P1/P2IS/P2EP (and maybe a little bit out of SMT4A)'s book and go back to having a whole cast of characters that can use any demon they want, but they have specific affinities for said demons.

At least this way, I'd actually have a use for the overwhelming majority of Personas that I fuse up. 9/10, you can pretty comfortably float by in the Hashino Persona games with like 5-6 Personas tops, and then let your team fill in the available slots. Why have so many excess Persona slots if your party members can't freely alternate between Personas?

Actually, P6 could try taking a page out of Digital Devil Saga's book and include some sort of character progression system like Mantra. Point is, I don't want another character I hate to get my favourite demon in the entire franchise: Seiten Taisei/Son Wukong.
 
So you dont need to keep going back to the Velvet Room to get an arcana out that matches the SL you're going to do

Truthfully, I haven't bothered maxing out unnecessary social links in a long time. My patience for SLs have diminished significantly with time because mainline SMT utterly spoiled me with unfettered access to demons, so having personas gated behind shitty character arcs immediately rubbed me the wrong way when I came back to Persona 5 after finishing SMT4 and Nocturne.

If the social link that the game presents me doesn't have any demons I'm remotely interested in, I absolutely refuse to do it. The pacing in P3-onward is fucking abysmal as it is, I'm not gonna slow down my gameplay with arbitrary social links for the sake of completionism.
 
Truthfully, I haven't bothered maxing out unnecessary social links in a long time. My patience for SLs have diminished significantly with time because mainline SMT utterly spoiled me with unfettered access to demons, so having personas gated behind shitty character arcs immediately rubbed me the wrong way when I came back to Persona 5 after finishing SMT4 and Nocturne.

If the social link that the game presents me doesn't have any demons I'm remotely interested in, I absolutely refuse to do it. The pacing in P3-onward is fucking abysmal as it is, I'm not gonna slow down my gameplay with arbitrary social links for the sake of completionism.

In persona 5 though most of the confidants add massive quality-of-life improvements to your gameplay, off the top of my head only a single one is mostly mechanically useless(the reporter lady)
 
In persona 5 though most of the confidants add massive quality-of-life improvements to your gameplay, off the top of my head only a single one is mostly mechanically useless(the reporter lady)

I don't care if I'm handicapping myself playing P5. Those "QOL" improvements are fucking worthless compared to the time I'd have to invest into levelling the social links up to attain the requisite "QOL" patches.

I know I sound like I deserve a tophat right now, but Persona 5's social links are just... so fucking draining to actually get through. There are some that I genuinely adore like the fortune teller, the doctor, Sojibro, the weapons dealer, etc. However, for every ONE social link that I actually like, there's a million more that have shit demons, shit character arcs, and their boosts are still useful but not worth the investment of time to me.
 
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Well, what do you know, another one.
Guess we'll finally get some info on the new red dress demon. We have definitely crossed into that weird territory where Jap game devs start just spoiling their story in the promotional material they put out. I might start avoiding these since even if SMT's narratives have never been much to write home about I do like to go into games without knowing too much.

"Hardest" is subjective. In many respects, Nocturne's hard mode is significantly more punishing than SMT4's Master mode or SMT4A's Apocalypse mode. However, the "difficulty" from Nocturne's hard mode just comes from two things alone: inescapable encounters and triple shop prices. Nocturne Hard mode is fucking cock and ball torture amped up to the logical extreme, don't get me wrong. However, there genuinely are objectively harder games in the franchise.
4A's Apocalypse difficulty just triples your miss rate and greatly increases the store prices from what I'm told so it's not much better than Nocturne's Hard in terms of being properly difficult. Difficulty in Nocturne apparently changes how enemy AI behaves so Hard mode does have some proper difficulty going for it.
cturne.png
If we're talking about difficulty in SMT I think Apocalypse's War is pretty great, easily the best in the series that I've played so far. It's an incredibly consistent difficulty curve (especially when compared to IV) that will still throw some curve balls at you. There are a few consecutive boss fights and the last three big bosses are no joke. Vishnu-Flynn can go fuck himself though, he's just obnoxious to fight.
 
Demon Affinities, Demon Sources/Essence from Strange Journey, Magatsuhi skills, and Glory aka App points scattered around the map to encourage exploration. Really seems like they're making the gameplay for SMT V customizable with a ton of depth.
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And while Demons in SMT V lack conversation skills, certain demons can assist in negotiations according to the JP site.
 
I don't care if I'm handicapping myself playing P5. Those "QOL" improvements are fucking worthless compared to the time I'd have to invest into levelling the social links up to attain the requisite "QOL" patches.

I know I sound like I deserve a tophat right now, but Persona 5's social links are just... so fucking draining to actually get through. There are some that I genuinely adore like the fortune teller, the doctor, Sojibro, the weapons dealer, etc. However, for every ONE social link that I actually like, there's a million more that have shit demons, shit character arcs, and their boosts are still useful but not worth the investment of time to me.
I agree with you on some level. So many social links in Persona 3/4/5 have filler ranks where absolutely nothing happens. If I can cut a social link down to five ranks and have the player get what they need to know about a character and their development, either they should only be five ranks or they need to make sure nearly every rank has important events and character development. Ann and Yusuke's social links were particularly guilty of having ranks where fuck all happens, and they're main party members to boot.

Maybe I'm becoming a boomer, though, and people like the downtime ranks.
 
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