The Tomboy Question(s)

[Zero Day Defense]

Idk but it seems like half the time I post in the Thunderdome the thread gets hijacked because people got booty-blasted over something I said

Ah... you post in a thread, and then the thread ends up hijacked.

Who's doing the hijacking?

Hell if I know, but people that already posted in the thread end up "being booty-blasted"... over something you said.

This is like when women talk about themselves being a "storm" that "drama" always seems to happen around, or something similar. More likely than actually being that ignorant, they're actively unwilling to admit that they're active agents or assess what exactly it is they do because that would involve taking responsibility and/or being introspective.

(and ironically enough often end up proving the points I was trying to make, in this case the fact that lots of dudes arent actually interested in real tomboys and that real tomboys differ from their idealized fantasy).

A slew of commenters outright rejected the premise that you're a tomboy, and took to labeling you a dyke. You assert that "dyke" is a subset of "tomboy", but they're obviously distinct terms and in practice they're motivated by and manifest as different things (hell, even the manifestation of the masculine traits is remarkably different)-- a fact with which you're unfamiliar and seem to deliberately dance around with dismissals that don't even wholly dismiss ("some women do X just because" doesn't detract from the fact that some other women do X for a specific purpose that can be inferred by the effect of the action, e.g. imparting a masculine aura, in combination with other mannerisms that impart the same).

(And may I say, this argument is severely loathsome. It suggests that there are people who do things for zero reason, as though they operate without intent-- but worse, the person making this argument only makes it in order to dismiss the specific assertion of their interlocutor, and you see this because they themselves start theorizing other explanations for the action in question (e.g. "some women just like to wear a masculine fragrance", "some women just find those clothes comfortable", "some women just have bad hygiene").)

You complain about rotten men telling women about how categories of female identity work, only for you to admit that you have no certainty about what the term "dyke" refers to, after repeatedly demonstrating that you don't.

And let's not pretend that a lack of interest in you or your kind of person is indicative of a lack of interest in "real tomboys"-- that's absurd.

Anyways, I'm gonna backtrack a bit (this has actually been a very thought-provoking exchange of ideas through and through):

I am not convinced tomboys are disappearing. I accepted the premise initially, but aren't we just getting older?

That's something worth considering in broad strokes, but when people discuss tomboys "disappearing", they're generally referring to a rise in girls (within the burgeoning generation, actually) identifying as FtM or something very adjacent when the given rationales for that identification have a lot more in common with the "tomboy" or "boyish girl" designation, all of this happening in a culture that gives more positive social feedback for identifying as transgender and a venue-- the internet, in particular places like Tumblr or deviantArt-- where girls can easily be groomed or otherwise aggressively influenced into believing that identifying as transgender is completely rational given their known general disposition and further encouraged by the positive attention those identifications are demonstrated to attract in those circles.

 

[Lemmingwise]

That's something worth considering in broad strokes, but when people discuss tomboys "disappearing", they're generally referring to a rise in girls (within the burgeoning generation, actually) identifying as FtM or something very adjacent when the given rationales for that identification have a lot more in common with the "tomboy" or "boyish girl" designation, all of this happening in a culture that gives more positive social feedback for identifying as transgender and a venue-- the internet, in particular places like Tumblr or deviantArt-- where girls can easily be groomed or otherwise aggressively influenced into believing that identifying as transgender is completely rational given their known general disposition and further encouraged by the positive attention those identifications are demonstrated to attract in those circles.

I just don't think they're made from the same soup. Isn't tumblr mostly extinct by now, anyways?

But these are from the groups of girls that might have been goths, art girls and nerdy girls, they're into subcultures. The lgbtq thing is just a new subculture in some sense.

I don't think tomboys are really a subculture in the same way, nor made from the same type of person. There's just something a little more aloof and grounded about them.

The lgbtq types are rather made from the same dna as the overbearing churchladies of yesteryear; oversocialised.

I mean I'm saying this to test my view against that of others and hoping people either vocally agree or disagree.

What really is a tomboy anyways?

 

[NoSpiceLife]

Let me tell you a story from my childhood.
Mid-eighties. I'm in highschool. The boys and I pass recess and shit by racing each other down the track. One day, this gorgeous blonde with a pixie cut walks up to us and wants to race up the track. We let her, most of us take it easy on her so she can have fun. This girl was funny, sexy, and very direct. Had never met any girl like her before. It was then that I knew I had a thing for tomboys.

Tomboys are a type. Distinctly feminine and girly but interested in the hobbies and hanging out in male dominated fields. That's what the attraction to the Tomboy is. Usually no shitty make-up, athletic body, and a very open and direct personality that contrasts the usual and tedious endless beating around the bush shit that women tend to do when they can't make up their minds on something. I don't think they're like this because they "think like boys" but because they're trying to fit in with men and have to adjust to a masculine mindset. Might have changed since my day, but it's just like guys who are into goth chicks. They offer something different enough from Tiffany that they're alluring.

This is spot on (majority of 'old style' tomboys, are highly recognisable as female, they know they are female, a lot have long hair, and they don't want to be anything else. They don't wear 'guys clothes' because they want to hide anything, they wear them because they are comfortable, and suited to the activities they love to do), until the 'trying to fit in with men'.

It's not that they are 'trying to', they already do fit in with men, precisely due to the open and direct, no bullshit personality. They aren't interested in mind games, and can turn their hands and heads to pretty much anything.

Often it's the men that have to adjust to having a tomboy around, that they aren't there so the men can get in her pants, they are there because the men offer a way of life that suits the tomboy. The tomboy doesn't have to watch their mouths, doesn't have to second guess everything they say, waiting for the one precious that always finds some way, to be offended by what the tomboy says.

Todays appropriated tomboy, is far from what a tomboy actually is. Like everything else in clown world, a tomboy is now someone that has been forced/coerced/confused to take on a persona due to a perceived tomboy trait, like short hair, or not liking pink, despite not having any of the innate tomboy traits.

The actual tomboys are now told they aren't female, they are male, hence they are 'trans' and should get their tits cut off as soon as possible.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

But these are from the groups of girls that might have been goths, art girls and nerdy girls, they're into subcultures. The lgbtq thing is just a new subculture in some sense.

I don't think tomboys are really a subculture in the same way, nor made from the same type of person. There's just something a little more aloof and grounded about them.

I may have been imprecise in delineating the tomboy phenomenon as an actual subculture as opposed to a loose collection of people who fit a stereotype-- at the time, it was the best way I could convey the idea for context's sake.

With that said, you may be unnecessarily idealizing the archetype in distinguishing the kind of person who "becomes" a tomboy from the kind of person who becomes a goth, or nerd, or art girl. There are inherent differences, and those who become the latter are making a deliberate decision (versus the tomboy who just operates according to what she gravitates towards, which, typing that out really contextualizes what you meant by the idea that the tomboy phenomenon isn't really a subculture in the same way the other examples you listed are). At the end of it all, they're all women, and women are women-- even if the tomboy lacks to some extent the typical mannerisms of a woman.

Additionally, it'd be rare for a girl to be a permanent maverick. Even if they're not initially the kind of person to insert themselves into subcultures, they can very well become that kind of person by way of peer pressure, natural internal shift, or some combination of the two. If it's just that they end up in orbit of a subculture without divesting most of their prior personality, and they suffer in some way for this, I think that's one avenue for them to be influenced into believing that SRS/HRT is a panacea.

The lgbtq types are rather made from the same dna as the overbearing churchladies of yesteryear; oversocialised.

"Oversocialized"... now that's a concept I haven't considered.

It's not that they are 'trying to', they already do fit in with men,

Often it's the men that have to adjust to having a tomboy around,

So, they often don't fit in with men?

I think you're being imprecise-- rather than "already fitting in with men", tomboys are more capable of fitting in with men because of their mannerisms. On the other hand, the fact that they're women and the men they seek to fit in with are, well, presumably straight men, is a hurdle of substance. This hurdle is much smaller if we're talking about prepubescent children, of course.

 

[Android raptor]

You don't speak for anyone besides yourself. You're in your thirties, you're a dyke. You're not a tomboy.

The only thing that makes you mimic being a tomboy is that you're so autistic and autism is a male trait and makes someone act like the worst type of men. Not taking social cues or hints unless they're spelled out and even then being kinda oblivious about them.

But you're obviously a woman, because tomboys or men are usually not insufferable in the way that they make everything about themselves and soapboxing in a way like they're running for office or a neighborhood committee. Men may be insufferable, but they are in a different way when they are.

Tomboys instead are kinda like one of the guys. They can take a joke. They can act like a rank and file member and take a step back when people are being annoyed with them.

You're the other type of woman when it comes to male groups, the kind that infiltrates, that half the group loathes and wants to kick out but can't because the other half is blinded by the fact that it's a woman and their hormones do the thinking.


Nah, you're fine. Lgbtq just tries to ruin everything.


This is really accurate and insightful.



Huh... so that's why I've always ended up avoiding women in that shared the same passions.

Though I've never personally had the problem of her wanting to invade my time in any way, because if it starts to bother me, I just don't let her. Maybe I protect my borders early and vigilantly enough?

I think it's hypothetically possible of doing a lot of stuff together, but I admit I haven't seen it in practice. I've dated one woman where we really did genuinely share the same taste in almost everything. The only issue is that it could get weirdly competitive from time to time.

What you describe sounds almost like someone who regrets turning their hobby into a job.

But zero day defense said im not a dyke

Sounds like your personal definition/fantasy of a tomboy is a woman who is still quiet and never says anything you don't like. Which yeah nah, ain't how it is in reality.

Real tomboys like myself don't live up to the neckbeard fantasy, neckbeards REEEEEEE, just another day in the Autism Thunderdome

 

[Lemmingwise]

Sounds like your personal definition/fantasy of a tomboy is a woman who is still quiet and never says anything you don't like. Which yeah nah, ain't how it is in reality.

No, but if they give a putdown it's actually something that is either funny or something that stings instead of the entitled whining that you do.

 

[Android raptor]

No, but if they give a putdown it's actually something that is either funny or something that stings instead of the entitled whining that you do.

Your giant seething text walls seem to indicate that i stung something.

Anyway I'm a tomboy

 

[Zero Day Defense]

Sounds like your personal definition/fantasy of a tomboy is a woman who is still quiet and never says anything you don't like.

If female behavior really is a binary of "ineffective counselor" and "social circle hijacking attention whore" (the antithesis of what Lemmingwise actually said tomboys aren't) I may as well give up seeking intimacy with women. Or anything, for that matter.

And your actual tomboyishness aside, you're still a peculiar case because of the gestalt of your person.

 

[Android raptor]

If female behavior really is a binary of "ineffective counselor" and "social circle hijacking attention whore" (the antithesis of what Lemmingwise actually said tomboys aren't) I may as well give up seeking intimacy with women. Or anything, for that matter.

I mean I think you might as well give up getting sex from women, but not because of any bullshit about "female behavior" or whatever.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

I mean I think you might as well give up getting sex from women, but not because of any bullshit about "female behavior" or whatever.

I don't think that people who automatically think I was talking about sex unmoored from the general idea of intimacy are in a position to give any such suggestions-- not that that's your only disqualifier.

 

[KateHikes14]

I can think of a reason why women gravitate towards the tomboy aesthetic.

We live in an age where the modern woman have to work more often than not. The economy is not what it used to be and the roles of women in society have changed. Being a stay at home wife or mother is not a concept a lot of people can afford anymore. So what do women choose to do for careers? Well, they explore their interests in working fields just as any man would do.
Let’s talk about entry level blue collar and labor jobs, a primarily male dominated work force. The payout for the jobs is lucrative, with benefit packages and bonuses abound. But being a woman coming into these environments, it’s rough to say the least. I am speaking from many years of personal experience. I don’t want to say a lot of men in blue collar hate women because it frames them poorly, and there are good people and bad people. However a majority of these men are skeptical of a woman’s role in hard labor. There tends to be a strong boys club mentality to these jobs, and women just don’t fit their age old narratives.
So what do women do to adapt to these environments? I’ve found they embrace the tomboy label. It is extremely isolating for a woman to come into a job where they feel alone, unwelcome, and even hated. Women in this field will often be the only woman on their team. Whether they care about that or not, the men they work with do. They are subject to harsher scrutiny than their peers. I can’t tell you how many times men, or even other women have told me that I should know my place and that I’m doing a mans job. People actively take pleasure in my failures and hate my successes, and have told me as much, because I don’t belong.
Blue collar isn’t the only field this happens in, it’s just the one I’m in and can speak on. I don’t want this to come off as seethe. I understand why this happens, and I accepted it when I accepted this as my career. Turning a wrench and mechanical work brings me joy, and that’s why I do it at the end of the day. But I do it as a woman, not a woman trying to be man. And that’s a mentality women in this line of work struggle with often.
When I first started out I found myself thinking often how I wished I was a man, not out of any desire to transition or give up my femininity, but just to gain respect. I have long since outgrown that mentality and I recommend to others in a similar situations to do the same. But I do think that’s why there’s at a surge in tomboy culture. Women doing jobs that only men used to do.

As for it being some kind of fetish I can’t really speak on that.

Part of that is the knowledge that if you can't hack it, your coworkers will have to pick up your slack. If you can, ok? You accomplished the minimum. It's a prejudice sure, and while it may not be fair to the competent it sure does save time, effort, and hope spent on the incompetent. It already is shitty odds with hiring a male, hiring a woman? Even worse odds.

If someone told me "X is a tomboy" and they liked women, I'd say "oh a dyke?" Where I am and the places I've been, tomboy implies heterosexuality in adult women. Maybe tomboy being sexuality neutral is like a "pronouns in the bio" thing.

 

[Android raptor]

I don't think that people who automatically think I was talking about sex unmoored from the general idea of intimacy are in a position to give any such suggestions-- not that that's your only disqualifier.

You ain't getting any "intimacy" from women either

If someone told me "X is a tomboy" and they liked women, I'd say "oh a dyke?" Where I am and the places I've been, tomboy implies heterosexuality in adult women. Maybe tomboy being sexuality neutral is like a "pronouns in the bio" thing.

Yeah nah this thread is the first I've heard anyone say they associate being a tomboy with any specific sexual orientation.

For me tomboy really is the identity I've always felt describes me best. Idk man, I'm like what would happen if a gross edgy 12 year old boy got his dying wish to be reincarnated in the body of a woman with great tits. I'm basically living the dream with my dinosaurs and bugs near a bunch of creeks and patches of woods to play around in.

Sticking it out and remaining true to myself and never giving up my interests even with all the bullshit social pressure and bullying in adolescence was worth it. For adolescent tomboys it might feel like your only options are either conforming to gender stereotypes and remain a girl or Troon out so you can keep being who you are (because if you aren't a girl you won't get pressured to conform to gender stereotypes associated with being a girl), but that's bullshit. A post on the other farms suggested there needs to be an "it gets better" type project for tomboys and other gender non-conforming girls and woman and I don't exactly disagree (though Lord only knows how many death and rape threats the organizers of a project like that would get from troons).

It really does get better, and if you remain true to yourself and remain a tomboy into adulthood the payoff is worth it even if it's not an easy road. I've made some of my 10 year old self's wildest dreams come true and the satisfaction of knowing that is worth all the hell I got as a teen.

 

[KateHikes14]

Yeah nah this thread is the first I've heard anyone say they associate being a tomboy with any specific sexual orientation.

For me tomboy really is the identity I've always felt describes me best. Idk man, I'm like what would happen if a gross edgy 12 year old boy got his dying wish to be reincarnated in the body of a woman with great tits. I'm basically living the dream with my dinosaurs and bugs near a bunch of creeks and patches of woods to play around in. Sticking it out and remain

To be fair calling adult women tom-boys is relatively new, but it seems superflous to specify a lesbian as being more masculine.

 

[Android raptor]

To be fair calling adult women tom-boys is relatively new, but it seems superflous to specify a lesbian as being more masculine.

There are some extremely feminine lesbians out there. The term lesbian only implies being a woman exclusively attracted to women. Lipstick lesbians are definitely a thing.

 

[KateHikes14]

There are some extremely feminine lesbians out there. The term lesbian only implies being a woman exclusively attracted to women. Lipstick lesbians are definitely a thing.

What's "out there" and what people experience are two different things, but they're certainly not a tomboy at that point.

 

[All Cops Are Based]

For me tomboy really is the identity I've always felt describes me best. Idk man, I'm like what would happen if a gross edgy 12 year old boy got his dying wish to be reincarnated in the body of a woman with great tits. I'm basically living the dream with my dinosaurs and bugs near a bunch of creeks and patches of woods (words words words words)

another thread ruined because this r/femaledatingstrategy reject had to turn it into her cringey blog

 

[Android raptor]

What's "out there" and what people experience are two different things, but they're certainly not a tomboy at that point.

I mean yeah, lipstick lesbians aren't tomboys because being a tomboy means you're on the more boyish side of things.

another thread ruined because this r/femaledatingstrategy reject had to turn it into her cringey blog

It's Thunderdome. The idea of a Thunderdome thread being ruined is like pissing in an ocean made of piss

 

[Agent Abe Caprine]

What really is a tomboy anyways?

A miserable little pile of secrets.

 

[Some Badger]

That's something worth considering in broad strokes, but when people discuss tomboys "disappearing", they're generally referring to a rise in girls (within the burgeoning generation, actually) identifying as FtM or something very adjacent when the given rationales for that identification have a lot more in common with the "tomboy" or "boyish girl" designation, all of this happening in a culture that gives more positive social feedback for identifying as transgender and a venue-- the internet, in particular places like Tumblr or deviantArt-- where girls can easily be groomed or otherwise aggressively influenced into believing that identifying as transgender is completely rational given their known general disposition and further encouraged by the positive attention those identifications are demonstrated to attract in those circles.

I suspect this situation is one of the bigger contributing factors as to why tomboys have become more of a meme as of late. The growing trend of girls who aren't/don't feel traditionally feminine end up trooning out or coming to the conclusion they're lesbians makes heterosexual tomboys seem like rarer finds by comparison, both online and irl. Coupled with the fact that a lot of young men today are starved for intimacy, it only makes sense for them to view tomboys as an astronomically rare type of woman.

Minor PL but my brother has been simping for the same chick from college for like 6 years. I think he believes he's lucked out because she's also into guns and fishing and works an engineering job like him while also being interested in men. Tomboy scarcity feels like a palpable reality when every supposed "not like the other girls" chick online goes FtM in like a couple years.

 

[Wuornos]

You mean the ones who catfish you in real life with their pounds of makeup caked to their faces?

Those feminine women?

You do realise not all feminine women wear heavy make-up, right?